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My personal opinion is our sport will grow based on the personal interaction at matches. Shooting with friends. It's challenging but fun and you get to dress up and shoot cowboy guns. Videos of the shooting are cool but the interaction with the other shooters is a big part of why I shoot.

One of my favorites.

 

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There have been a number of surveys conducted online, in this and other shooting forums, about increasing participation in cowboy action shooting.  The top two responses for NOT participating are:

An interesting concept and I applaud you for thinking out of the box.  I do have some concerns about your idea though.  When I read through your idea the first thing I thought of was NASCAR.  When NAS

I watch the Outdoor and Sportsman channel, on Wednesday Night at the Range, the outdoor channel has “shooting USA”. They show IDPA matches, and when SASS has live events, they presented Winter Range,

3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

How do you decide who gets invited?  Instead of invitation I'd suggest qualify.  As things are now, anyone who has the $$$ can participate in any SASS match around the world.  For this event we would set up some qualifying criteria.  

 

100% agree.  Voluntary meritocracy.

If you are shooting at a PRO event match (obviously would not be every event - maybe 1-2 a year), you check the PRO box on the initial application - pay your PRO eligibility fee AND then if you finish as top 10 PRO; you are into the PRO event.

Finish out of the top 10 PROs and thank you, have a nice day. 

Better luck next time.

 

As for the televised events - make them CAS related; but they don't have to be exactly what we shoot every weekend.

 

Black Powder.

Box Stock Challenge (great marketing opportunity for someone - unboxing new guns on TV and PRO shooters raving about their performance).

Long range.

Min and max distances.

 

In addition; show footage of these PRO shooters during the MAIN match emphasizing the interactions.

 

Get to know the shooter segments which builds fan bases and rivalries.

 

Limit any specific televised event to a couple of side by side runs (show the winning run and any trainwrecks) to limit repetition and maintain a level of excitement.

 

This would allow each program  to showcase multiple different events rather than showing the same thing 5 times (remember, we're marketing to casual viewers or folks new to the game - not to us).

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4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I'm clean!  I swear!!! :ph34r:

Not me. I take cortisone shots for my bad knees. No big leagues for me!

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I'm listening to the ideas, Pards.

And I don't want to pee on your idea. 

But our little outfit cannot afford to run that with our present income.

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Get out da Rope , <_<

Not Buying into this ....

Just another excuse to cut out More of the Cowboy Stuff ... 

Take time away from COWBOY side matches etc...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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42 minutes ago, Mustang Gregg said:

I'm listening to the ideas, Pards.

And I don't want to pee on your idea. 

But our little outfit cannot afford to run that with our present income.

This might work for big outfits but all this would require planning, coordination and vision that would take away from the normal activities and responsibilities in the club, care would have to be taken to not overtax your volunteers and staff that plan the events so your normal club activities don't suffer.  The benefits if some clubs could get this going are that the TV exposure would likely draw new people to the big and little clubs alike. 

 

If you all don't do it already, check with your local chamber of commerce for opportunities to showcase or advertise your club at local events, maybe figure out how to hold an exhibition event at the county fair etc.

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There have been a number of surveys conducted online, in this and other shooting forums, about increasing participation in cowboy action shooting.  The top two responses for NOT participating are:

 

1.  High cost of 4 firearms to get started.

2.  I don't want to wear a costume.

 

I cannot recall any single response that said, "I don't want to shoot SASS/CAS because they don't give prizes or money for the top shooters", or "I won't be able to watch myself on TV."

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

In my opinion, creating a "Pro" category or competition will cause more shooters to leave the sport than will be gained.

 

Remember the negative reaction to the "VIP Tent" at EOT years ago?  Same thing.

Edited by J-BAR #18287
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1 hour ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Get out da Rope , <_<

Not Buying into this ....

Just another excuse to cut out More of the Cowboy Stuff ... 

Take time away from COWBOY side matches etc...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

I already said NO changes to the main match (which includes side matches and the like).  The PRO event would take place AFTER the main match to determine the persons qualifying for the PRO event. 

Would take nothing away from the main match. 

 

I don't mind a spirited debate - and some may have significant arguments against my idea.

But dang, at least read the whole proposal before making claims of the harm it would do.

 

As to over working clubs or finances - this would add to the coffers of a club; not deplete. 

And since we are a volunteer operation; no one is ever forced to do anything.

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I have always had in my mind a "qualifier stage"  or two instead of age categories. Having to shoot the qualifier stage(s) at least once a year.

Your times on these stages would rank you with a handicap...... Then when a stage is shot your time minus the handicap would be your recorded time for that stage.

 

IE - If you wanted to shoot duelist you would have to have a qualified handicap for duelist......Same for Classic Cowboy...B-Western. etc. And there would be a maximum handicap for us slow shooters.

 

And to tie in with Creeker..... Only scratch shooters would be in the "PRO" group.

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6 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Are you familiar with the term, "sandbagging?"  :ph34r:

When you win a match your handicap is adjusted down.

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11 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

When you win a match your handicap is adjusted down.

 

That's supposed to make me feel good?  A sandbagger beats me for a state championship, and as he is getting his picture taken with the 1st place plaque, I get to tell myself, "Well, his handicap is going to get adjusted."

 

Right.

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Equipment/ammo inspections, minimum qualifications to compete...  just look at how folks reacted to "Wild Bunch"... while maybe not quite Cowboy IPSC, it will get there very fast.  Exactly what the founders of SASS didn't want.  I can pretty much guarantee that the founders wish they'd never let the first gun modification  pass.  I'll paraphrase the Judge when asked what he envisioned... "held a costume contest and a shooting match broke out."

 

SASS in the early days invited a TV producer come out to EOT and filmed for the entire 3 days... took a LOT of money in preorders for the finished product... and never delivered.  Yep.   Some folks are just pain sleazy.  How many folks would balk at the idea of having their mug plastered on TV for whatever personal reasons they may have.  

 

And just who's going to do all the accounting for handicaps, etc... Develop your own organization to do the handicap & pro shooting.  Hold your shoots in conjunction with a local SASS club, but... I don't think they'll enjoy your burdening them with the extra work... 

 

This has ALL been discussed and discarded quite a few times since the day after the Wild Bunch announced the formation of SASS.  

Edited by Griff
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I never mentioned handicaps or ANYTHING that requires extra effort or sacrifice from the main match shooters.

 

Stop tying anchors that are not part of the idea around the ideas neck.

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The founders of SASS thought it would be fun to shoot an IPSC match with their cowboy guns.

 

Revisionist history is revisionist history; no matter the source and yes - I have spoken to the founders as well.

 

"Costuming takes precedence over shooting" comments are likely the greatest detriment to our growth of  anything you can posit.

 

And lastly; the Wild Bunch has also said "The game dies when we do".

Because they failed to put in place mechanisms to continue it's growth.

 

It is time to take up the mantle they have cast aside and attempt to ensure that the game we enjoy is able to survive beyond any individual.

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34 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I never mentioned handicaps or ANYTHING that requires extra effort or sacrifice from the main match shooters.

 

Stop tying anchors that are not part of the idea around the ideas neck.

+1000

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Creeker, no you didn't, but others have piled on their own additional requirements to yours... Which I don't have a problem with...  but, while a large segment of our (SASS') growth has been with previously non-competitive shooters, many of these folks were "gun-folk"... just not in the competitive world.  I'm just not as sure as you are that additional growth would come as a result of exposure to a new "category"... I can only speak for our little club, I felt we did our best self-promotion when we made up a gun show booth and presented ourselves to other "gun-folks".  Having a library of videos or access and permission to use others' videos or U-Tube in promotions would illicit a more personal and immediate response.  I, like many folks understand best when presented pictures!  

 

I'd love to see interviews with shooters available that described how/why they got involved, and maybe some of the females describing how they made or gathered their costumes.  Little short features, no more than 5-10 minutes...   Maybe someone has a kid that's interested in video development and could be corralled into making such a thing for their club, and maybe shared with other clubs that don't have such a person.  How many of us have a You-Tube channel... doesn't have to be the quality of Jedi-TV, but that's an excellent example of what I'm talking about.  

 

Maybe someone has done a video or series on their development of their "persona" or character from when they first started to how they dress and what arms they use now.  

 

Of all the things SASS (HQ) could do... one of the simplest, would be a revision of their home page... with a simple renaming of the "Club Resources" link to a much more highlighted and vibrant "Here's How/where to Get Started" link.   Every time I go to look for info on clubs where I'm going to have a weekend free, I have to remember that "Club Resources" aren't resources for clubs, but the link to find local clubs.  

 

And it ain't revisionist history... it was lived...   they flat didn't want CAS to become the equipment race that IPSC had become by the early 1980s.   Along with the extreme competitiveness that a "pro" sport seems to promulgate.  And yes, I've heard that death of SASS comment... but, it doesn't make it so unless we allow it.  I think we can do a better job of promoting what we do NOW without the change to become a "Pro-Am" type of sport.

Edited by Griff
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I believe the basic premise of this is how Western 3 Gun came about. 

 

This is an interesting idea, that bears some thought.  I'm withholding my opinion for now.  Preferring to absorb the discussion.

 

Doc

 

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26 minutes ago, Griff said:

Of all the things SASS (HQ) could do... one of the simplest, would be a revision of their home page... with a simple renaming of the "Club Resources" link to a much more highlighted and vibrant "Here's How/where to Get Started" link.   Every time I go to look for info on clubs where I'm going to have a weekend free, I have to remember that "Club Resources" aren't resources for clubs, but the link to find local clubs.  

 

 

Amen to that! I love our SASS folks but our website could use a few "tweaks". Jussayin

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And I do think this is a novel idea, especially now. I have always been in favor of SASS "the way it used to be". (yeah, i know yer tired of hearin that.)

I think we DO have to think outside the box or our sport will die. I hate to say that and even though I am stubborn and set in my ways and HATE change, the world is changing around us and we will have to come up with something. Thanks Creeker and all for the ideas. Now lets get out there and SHOOT!

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Maybe I communicate poorly...

I have neither the youth, skill or speed to participate in a PRO event.

 

And most others do not either.

That's why I am so adamant that the PRO event run AFTER the main match; not concurrently.

 

The main match is simply the qualifier to participate in the PRO event after - same as a top gun shoot off.

 

But the facts are - IF we wish national exposure there HAS to be someone willing to foot the bills.

The STIHL Timbersports event has a whole lot of advertising from...   C'mon, guess who?

Yup, Stihl.

 

To get this thing setup, recorded, edited and televised is going to require a commitment from a major firearms player.  

The Ruger/ Marlin / Henry/ Uberti/ Pietta/ EMF/ Cimmaron (or whomever) Cowboy Action Roundup has nice ring to it.

 

And who would commit to advertise on such an event...

C'mon, guess.

 

And lastly, the nice folks at Ruger/ Marlin etc. are going to want the VERY best in our game to represent the game (their equipment) - social events don't televise well - action events do.

 

One showing on the smallest broadcast or streaming network would expose our game to a much greater number of potential shooters than setting up booths at all the gun shows in the US.

 

And considering our very own Wolf Bane is an expert in this sort of thing - perhaps his input would prove valuable regarding feasibility.

 

 

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Creeker, why don't you put together a team, see if you can get some donations/sponsorship, venue, and get it going?  Then you'll find out if there is interest in such a thing.  Probably will need to do a stand alone match to start with.

 

Just an off the wall thought.


Doc

 

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11 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Creeker, why don't you put together a team, see if you can get some donations/sponsorship, venue, and get it going?  Then you'll find out if there is interest in such a thing.  Probably will need to do a stand alone match to start with.

 

Just an off the wall thought.


Doc

 

I have neither the contacts in the broadcasting business nor the relationship with a title sponsor that doing this correctly would require.

 

I would also need either SASS to agree to forego the contractual agreements that forbid cash prizes.

 Or access to a semi major match that is not SASS affiliated.

 

I am a reasonably intelligent man; but I understand my limitations in this regard.

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1 minute ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I have neither the contacts in the broadcasting business nor the relationship with a title sponsor that doing this correctly would require.

 

I would also need either SASS to agree to forego the contractual agreements that forbid cash prizes.

 Or access to a semi major match that is not SASS affiliated.

 

I am a reasonably intelligent man; but I understand my limitations in this regard.

 

Understood.  I'll drop it.

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4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

I already said NO changes to the main match (which includes side matches and the like).  The PRO event would take place AFTER the main match to determine the persons qualifying for the PRO event. 

Would take nothing away from the main match. 

 

I don't mind a spirited debate - and some may have significant arguments against my idea.

But dang, at least read the whole proposal before making claims of the harm it would do.

 

As to over working clubs or finances - this would add to the coffers of a club; not deplete. 

And since we are a volunteer operation; no one is ever forced to do anything.

And that is Just what they Said When WB Came to Be ,,,, Well  have noticed a Huge reduction in both the Number of Side matches and the Quality of Cowboy Side Matches and time spent on them ... And I don't just mean locally, I have noticed this In our Three Western Provinces , Montana and Arizona as well ... So that's just my take on things, I think this Idea poses more problems than it is worth and will likely drive more folks away than it's worth leaving SASS with a Net Loss ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Take the top 16 at the EOT or our National Championship.  We have had duelist and gunfights in the top 16.  I love the idea.  I agree it would make it interesting to allow shooters to advertise sponsors.  Just like EOT, the targets can be all knockdowns with plate racks etc.  I've never understood why the top 16 is not the major showcase with sponsored awards.  I remember when Missouri Lefty received an incredible set of holsters at EOT for winning the top 16.  I have always felt this should have been the major focus of Shooting USA.  An incredible rifle for the top male and female.  The film crew could get some footage of the shooters working there way to the top 16 during the 12 stage match.  Good stuff Creeker!!!!!  Anything is possible if you think out of the box.  If we keep going down the same path we are going to get to the same place.

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And while I didn't quit over the WB issue , I did Quit going to certain shoots because of it ...

I did find New clubs to shoot with and support , and more than a few others must have felt the same way as two of the shoots I had attended for years had their attendance drop by 90% and have since closed ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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27 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Understood.  I'll drop it.

No need to do that. 

 

I run a fair number of businesses that other people with greater contacts or access ran previously.

 

I'm really good at the operations of these businesses - because I can identify need and create methods that offer fulfillment of that need.

 

I sit in a lot of meetings with folks smarter than me - that I continually challenge to buy into my vision and figure out how to give me what I need.

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43 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

No need to do that. 

 

I run a fair number of businesses that other people with greater contacts or access ran previously.

 

I'm really good at the operations of these businesses - because I can identify need and create methods that offer fulfillment of that need.

 

I sit in a lot of meetings with folks smarter than me - that I continually challenge to buy into my vision and figure out how to give me what I need.

 

All it takes for this to get off the ground is someone with an entrepreneurial mindset, who is fully invested in a vision and willing to put in the time and energy it will take.  There will be a lot of failures along the way too.  But you probably know all that.  It's just like a startup.

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12 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Top Shot had some interesting shooting scenarios...............

Top Shot had two shootings

The first in the AM to determine the winner

The second in the afternoon for the film crews

Good for  few seasons,then boring

 

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Have you ever heard of a really close family being torn apart by greed and jealousy when it's oldest member dies and 

THERE'S MONEY INVOLVED?

 

 

 

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Sure sounds like 3-Gun to me. Many years ago I presented the idea of a category in SASS that would be populated by "Pros" and "Top Gun" only. It was to be based on qualifiers earned throughout the year and put into play at the World Championship. If throughout the year you earned some minimum number of points then you had no choice other than to shoot in the category and the World's Champ would come from that category. At the time I was calling it the "Open" category and would allow any SASS legal gun and shooting style. The idea at the time was to put all those Top shooters into one pot so that they were forced to competed DIRECTLY against each other. It would have stopped category shopping at the World's Championship. At the time these same shooters were virtually all receiving their Ammo, Bullets , powder, Guns and in some cases, Entry Fees paid. Ha! I remember one time the Chronicle had two different ads with Mr Top Dog on two different pages claiming that he shot X brand ammo exclusively on one page, and then Y brand on a different page.  Anyhow when I presented the idea Bloyd made it clear that it would never be allowed to happen and insisted that SASS didn't allow "Pros"... yet at the time their Champion was without any doubt a "Pro".  IMO that idea isn't held as strongly as it once was. Also IMO SASS might be willing to buy into many things if they thought it would save them. One thing that must be kept in mind is this FACT:  people ARE in this game for what they get out of it. They are not going to support anything that they feel might negatively effect them. 99.9% of those that are still playing the game do so for THEIR own enjoyment not to promote someone else. I'm not saying that this idea couldn't work... just making my comments. 

 

Snakebite

Edited by Snakebite
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May be a good idea, but lets make sure the Professionals behave like professionals. Nothin worse than displays of temper on TV by someone you want to be a representative of your and my sport. I have seen enough shooters that only have one or two "good" stages a match and let every one know how good they think they are by slamming guns on unloading table or cursing spotters or TO.

JMO

kR

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3 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Sure sounds like 3-Gun to me. Many years ago I presented the idea of a category in SASS that would be populated by "Pros" and "Top Gun" only. It was to be based on qualifiers earned throughout the year and put into play at the World Championship. If throughout the year you earned some minimum number of points then you had no choice other than to shoot in the category and the World's Champ would come from that category. At the time I was calling it the "Open" category and would allow any SASS legal gun and shooting style. The idea at the time was to put all those Top shooters into one pot so that they were forced to competed DIRECTLY against each other. It would have stopped category shopping at the World's Championship. At the time these same shooters were virtually all receiving their Ammo, Bullets , powder, Guns and in some cases, Entry Fees paid. Ha! I remember one time the Chronicle had two different ads with Mr Top Dog on two different pages claiming that he shot X brand ammo exclusively on one page, and then Y brand on a different page.  Anyhow when I presented the idea Bloyd made it clear that it would never be allowed to happen and insisted that SASS didn't allow "Pros"... yet at the time their Champion was without any doubt a "Pro".  IMO that idea isn't held as strongly as it once was. Also IMO SASS might be willing to buy into many things if they thought it would save them. One thing that must be kept in mind is this FACT:  people ARE in this game for what they get out of it. They are not going to support anything that they feel might negatively effect them. 99.9% of those that are still playing the game do so for THEIR own enjoyment not to promote someone else. I'm not saying that this idea couldn't work... just making my comments. 

 

Snakebite

Appreciate the insight and yes, I do remember the non-pro pros. I get it, you own a business that makes a product and you want that touted by the best, basic econ, but SASS said no a long time ago, so is it no or is it Mmmmm, maybe for some? I don't know if a televised "pro" shoot is the answer but I will say we need to do something of we will surely fade away; as sad as that makes me.

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