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DeaconKC

1873 rifle thoughts

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Okay, looks like I may be going to a 73 Winchester style rifle. I don't want to spend money going to a gunsmith to get one to run right. Which ones should I be looking for that are reliable out of the box?

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They all work right... And are reliable... Except the rarely seen Chaparral.

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If you want a lifetime gun that needs nothing out of the box i'd go with a winchester. However if for some reason something should break they are a little difficult to find parts for. If you want something that can be slicked up and made into a race gun down the road and there's plenty of parts available then go with a uberti. But as for your actual question. Either the winchester or uberti will work and be reliable out of the box. Of course there are the occasional factory screw ups with anything. The winchester is going to be smoother and have a shorter lever throw out of the box. That's my two cents on the subject YMMV 

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Sent you a PM

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14 minutes ago, Thunder Creek Kid said:

Winchester/Miroku

Curious... Are you saying that the Uberti 73's are not reliable out of the box?

 

Phantom

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Curious... Are you saying that the Uberti 73's are not reliable out of the box?

 

Phantom

OP asked for an opinion. Mine is Miroku for out of the box ready to go. Internals in mine are much better than other stock Ubertis I have looked at. The throw appears to match a gen 3 short stroke. 

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3 minutes ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

OP asked for an opinion. Mine is Miroku for out of the box ready to go. Internals in mine are much better than other stock Ubertis I have looked at. The throw appears to match a gen 3 short stroke. 

No, the OP asked " Which ones should I be looking for that are reliable out of the box?"

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

OP asked for an opinion. Mine is Miroku for out of the box ready to go. Internals in mine are much better than other stock Ubertis I have looked at. The throw appears to match a gen 3 short stroke. 

Enlighten me; what's so funny?

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I have both. Winchester does have better fit and finish. So far, I've broken the butt stock off, broke the firing pin safety, and the loading gate. I welded up the firing pin, they sent me a new loading gate. Didn't even try to get the stock replaced.  I've had the Winchester since 2015. Winchesters do break. I've had similar problems with Uberti's. 

 

Yes, I am hard on a rifle. 

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I have no real data as to reliability directly out of the box so I shouldn't have answered this.  I would guess few people actually have enough experience with both firearms to directly answer your question.  Gun store employees or better yet owners that have sold several hundred of both brands might have something meaningful to say.  A few of our more worthy gunsmiths could possibly shed light on this as well.  However, a local gunsmith may never see a firearm that malfunctions right out of the box as those issues probably would be handled by the dealer.  Remember that reliability and functionality are not the same thing.  A nail is a reliable fastener but fails the function test if driven poorly.

While you didn't ask this there are several factors that weigh in on a new anything.

Cost, parts, lots of people with experience with them.  For my own money Uberti comes out ahead, yes they have soft screws and yes some are over tightened but overall a better deal.  Of course your mileage may vary        

 

 

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9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Curious... Are you saying that the Uberti 73's are not reliable out of the box?

 

Phantom


No not saying that. I’m saying I’ve had dealings with 3 of them ( 2-73s and 1- 66 ) and all have run well. 

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2 hours ago, Thunder Creek Kid said:


No not saying that. I’m saying I’ve had dealings with 3 of them ( 2-73s and 1- 66 ) and all have run well. 

That's why I asked... The OP specifically asked "which ones should I be looking for that are reliable out of the box".

 

If one says Winchester it implies that Uberti makes less than reliable 1873's compared to Winchester...and vica versa (sp?).

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

 

How does this answer the OP's question?

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I have owned five 1873s, three Ubertis and two Winchester/Mirokus.  Comparing NIB rifles the Miroku is the nicer and faster of the two. 

 

 

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This can be said about either brand, "it ran really good until it broke".

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Just now, July Smith said:

I have owned five 1873s, three Ubertis and two Winchester/Mirokus.  Comparing NIB rifles the Miroku is the nicer and faster of the two. 

 

 

The question posed by the OP asked about reliability, not the subjective question of which is nicer nor faster.

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They will both run fine out of the box. That's if you are taking them out for a Sunday drive, slow and easy. Which may be your style of shooting. That's fine. Phantom runs his rifle fast, mine is kind of fast, everyone is different. Here's the deal. If you decide to run the rifle faster than it is set up it will break. They are just like cars. Performance modifications must be made regardless of brand, the average engine wasn't designed for high revs. 

Out of the box probably the Winchester is faster, it will break when pushed too hard.

Maybe not the first match or two or even ten. That stooopid little fire pin safety is going to fail.

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I switched from a '66 to a '73 a few years back..

I think either the Uberti or Miroku  '73 would suit your needs..

I chose the Ubert Delux.. Curved stock grip..

it came up to my cheek better and made the sight picture better..

I don't know if Miroku makes the Delux model..

but might be something to consider..

 

Rance ;)

Just my 2 cents.. :wacko:

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

How does this answer the OP's question?

Well, that is right out of the box and runs pretty well. Reliability? They all need regular cleaning and lubrication. Some shooters do it well. Some don't. Some people throw their weapons on tables. Some place them on the tables. Some people shoot mostly at matches with little practice and some shoot waaayyy more in pursuit of glory. If he had asked about pistols I would have said Rugers. Just my opinion. 

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4 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

Well, that is right out of the box and runs pretty well. Reliability? They all need regular cleaning and lubrication. Some shooters do it well. Some don't. Some people throw their weapons on tables. Some place them on the tables. Some people shoot mostly at matches with little practice and some shoot waaayyy more in pursuit of glory. If he had asked about pistols I would have said Rugers. Just my opinion. 

I don't throw or place Weapons when playing this game....guns... firearms...rifles...shotguns...yes. Weapons, no.

 

But the question from the OP concerned reliability. So why state an opinion that has nothing to do with the question?

 

It's there any significant differences in out of the box RELIABILITY between a Winchester and an Uberti???

 

Phantom

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48 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't throw or place Weapons when playing this game....guns... firearms...rifles...shotguns...yes. Weapons, no.

 

But the question from the OP concerned reliability. So why state an opinion that has nothing to do with the question?

 

It's there any significant differences in out of the box RELIABILITY between a Winchester and an Uberti???

 

Phantom

His first sentence was about it running right. The gentleman in the video showed it running right. I didn't give an opinion or say they all work. You seem to have a problem with that. That's your problem. 

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Just now, Mister Badly said:

His first sentence was about it running right. The gentleman in the video showed it running right. I didn't give an opinion or say they all work. You seem to have a problem with that. That's your problem. 

Define "running right".

 

I have problems with people that answer questions that are not asked...

 

And they're not "Weapons".

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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Uberti, Miroku are both reliable out of the box. If you are looking for faster or nicer then Miroku out of box, but they both work fine.

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Perhaps a bit redundant, but I'd like to add my vote for a Miroku/Winchester. I started with a Uberti (Cimarron) '66, and did install a short (not super short) kit and aluminum carrier to get it to run to the point that it "felt" good to me. As a back-up I bought a Miroku/Winchester '73 and other than removing the covers, checking the workings and adding a bit of lube, I run it as it came, save the odd adjustment to the hammer spring. I prefer the feel of it to the '66, and it is my go to now. The '66 is in 38 Special and the '73 is in 357. I run the same 38 ammo in either. 

 

I did not have a lever rifle for Wild Bunch, and to that end I bought a Uberti in 45 Colt. This last Sunday I used it for CAS, my first match with it, and it works well. It was used, but is basically stock. Of these 2 '73's, I'd give a slight nod to the Miroku.

 

If your end game was to have it slicked and mod'd to the nines, way more kits and such available for the Uberti.

 

I'm still at the leading edge of the learning curve on the toggle link lever guns, but I've realized that there are lots of little tweaks that can make it run better. Unfortunately lot of them involve removing metal that cannot easily be put back on if things go south. 

 

'73's come in different flavors, and calibers. My preferences or features I prefer are the crescent shaped butt as it stays put on my shoulder better, no more than a 20" barrel, and for my rear sight I like the original Winchester Carbine ladder sight with a V notch. 

 

Caveat: If your caliber choice is 44-40 or 45 Colt instead of 38/357, I'd suggest an Uberti. Uberti's are made to CIP bore/groove/twist specs, and the Miroku's are made to something like SAAMI or the Japanese equivalent. For 38/357, all the spec's are the same (basically), and the bore/groove/twist is pretty much as it should be, no matter who makes it. 

 

In 45 Colt this gets a bit convoluted, and I prefer the CIP specs, Cimarron lists these as .442/450/1:16". (bore/groove/twist).

 

Miroku specs are a bit hard to nail down, they have 45 Colt numbers like 1:26" and 1:18 3/4" depending on the model ???? BTW, Winchester did not return my customer service request.  In 44-40 they are at 1:36, which IMHO is a bit slower than desired for slow lead. I've owned a 44-40 Rossi and have a 44 Mag Rossi both had a 1:20 twist and it was a breeze to load for either. My slower twist 44's, not so much. Rossi rifle have other issues, I'd avoid them.

 

By far the worst in the big bores are the Marlin 1894's, oversized bores, shallow "Ballard looking" grooves, and a twist rate better suited to muzzle loaders shooting round balls. 

 

I will not own another Marlin 1894 in 44 mag, one was enough.

 

BB

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I guess I don't know what "reliable out of the box" means...

 

:wacko:

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I guess I don't know what "reliable out of the box" means...

 

:wacko:

 

Apparently not :P:lol::lol::lol:

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Define "running right".

 

I have problems with people that answer questions that are not asked...

 

And they're not "Weapons".

 

Cheers!

Phantom

Dang. Who peed in your wheaties this morning? You’re even more “phantom” than normal. The semantics police might be hiring so check them out. 
 

And yes they are weapons. I consider myself a tough enough guy, but I’m still not going against what my drill sergeant spent so many hours drilling into my head (not to mention the amount of pushups I've done for saying it wrong)  

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7 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Dang. Who peed in your wheaties this morning? You’re even more “phantom” than normal. The semantics police might be hiring so check them out. 
 

And yes they are weapons. I consider myself a tough enough guy, but I’m still not going against what my drill sergeant spent so many hours drilling into my head (not to mention the amount of pushups I've done for saying it wrong)  

Oh... Okay. Guess that makes it right.

 

Guess I should just be one of those guys that just doesn't give a crap about words and their meanings... Or what "reliable out of the box" means...out of fear that someone will think that I'm just a semantics freak... Or just being more "Phantom" than normal.

 

What a crew ...

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Posted (edited)

Howdy Deacon.  I think most of the toggle link guns will "run right" out of the box.  Most problems people seem to have with them are ammo related, or pushing the limits of speed with a particular rifle.  As for reliability, to me that means working correctly without something breaking or needing repair.  I can only speak to that for Ubertis, as I have not owned a Miroku.  My 5 toggle-link Ubertis all get used and I don't practice, so my round counts will be considerably less than some, but they are all at least 15 years old and have between 3K and 9K rounds through them.  I have broken exactly one part, a carrier spring that broke on the 44-40 carbine at about the 4000 round mark.  Only one of the rifles has had the springs thinned, the others were all lightened just by adjusting the screws, so they all have stock parts in them.  I think if someone tried to run an Uberti out of the box with no spring lightening whatsoever, and ran some thousands of rounds through it, it would likely wear down the cam on the lever.  Mirokus are sprung considerably lighter and should not have that problem.

 

 

Edited by Abilene, SASS # 27489
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Run right... All of them really. Run reliably out of the box, I'll say all of them again.

 

Run fast out of the box? Ah, now I have a different opinion.

 

I am new to the sport, and do not have a lot of experience with it yet. But I did learn a lot at the Atlanta NRA convention.

 

For '73s. I compared 3 rifles:

 

NIB Uberti

NIB Uberti tuned by Taylor (had a different booth name, but found out all work was done by Taylor)

NIB Winchester

 

I also looked at a NIB Rossi, but think it was a '92. I'll pretend it was a '73 (bear with me).

 

Let's rank them by cost (cheapest wins):

Rossi

Uberti

Winchester

Taylor/Uberti

 

Let's rank them by "feel" cycling them (smoothest wins):

Taylor/Uberti

Winchester

Uberti

Rossi

 

That is all without additional slicking at the NRA convention. I have handled slicked Rossi's and Uberti's, amazing what a gunsmith can do! Simply amazing! No difference I can tell between a slicked Rossi versus an Uberti (whether via Taylor or not)! Just run like warm butter.

 

But NIB? The Rossi simply sucks. Taylor does an amazing job with Ubertis, but they are not the same as some of the ones reworked by smiths dedicated to this sport. But the Winchester is very close to the Taylor version. And the NIB Uberti does need slicking to run fast easily.

 

So, the Winchester Miroku... I bought one. Need to start a thread on it. I am going to slick it myself, I am pretty good with tools. Out of the box, it runs almost as smoothly as any professionally slicked rifle I have had the pleasure of shooting, except for one thing. The lever safety requires conscious force. Not that much really, but it requires attention. So a spring change is in order. And the stroke? Well, it is already half-stroked from the factory. While there is no reliable conversion to do more with it, I'm not sure more is needed.

 

And as far as other slicking... If I cleaned it, oiled it, and sat myself in front of the TV and cycled it while binge watching all of the spaghetti westerns, that would probably be the same result as some careful diamond hone work and deburring and such. It really does not need much unless you are already running stages in well under a minute When I can do that, I might have a different opinion.

 

Final opinion... You can save a lot of money buying already slicked guns from other shooters. You can almost buy two used slicked guns for the price of one NIB. My choice of my particular '73 involved some personal factors, but I may still get a used slicked Uberti as a backup gun, and as a loaner.

 

 

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Thank you to you all for your very thoughtful replies. I know I will never be a blindingly fast shooter, and I DO take care of my firearms. Quite honestly, I like my little Rossi 92s. If it were not for Classic Cowboy requiring a 73 or prior, I wouldn't be seriously looking at one. But you guys have given me a ton of great info, and certainly has me feeling much better about which paths to look at. Thank you again.

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Deacon, I started with a Winchester '94 trapper, which was the worst thing you could use at the time (pre-Big Boy), then upgraded to a stainless Navy Arms '92 (nicely finished Rossi).   I liked it fine.  And then in one weekend I bought a '66 and won a '73.  The poor '92 was quite neglected 'til I sold it!

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Negative Nancy is back......

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