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It is very simple.

One of the first things we teach in this game is the spotter song.

 

It you KNOW it's a hit - it's a hit.

If you THINK it's a hit - it's a hit.

If you KNOW it's a miss - it's a miss.

If you THINK it's a miss - it's a hit.

 

I humbly propose; the same standard needs to be applied to rules/ rulings and opinions.

 

If you KNOW it's legal - it's legal

If you THINK it's legal - it's legal

If you KNOW it's illegal - it's illegal.

If you THINK it's illegal - it's legal.

 

Our game has subjectivity within it - but in EVERY case, that subjectivity should go in favor of the shooter.

 

What is the fastest way to get cut off as a spotter giving a count or trying to call a "p"?

Start your sentence with, "I think"

 

You can opine and think and debate all you wish.  But absent a "RULE" - you cannot determine something to be against the rules.

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26 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It is very simple.

One of the first things we teach in this game is the spotter song.

 

It you KNOW it's a hit - it's a hit.

If you THINK it's a hit - it's a hit.

If you KNOW it's a miss - it's a miss.

If you THINK it's a miss - it's a hit.

 

I humbly propose; the same standard needs to be applied to rules/ rulings and opinions.

 

If you KNOW it's legal - it's legal

If you THINK it's legal - it's legal

If you KNOW it's illegal - it's illegal.

If you THINK it's illegal - it's legal.

 

Our game has subjectivity within it - but in EVERY case, that subjectivity should go in favor of the shooter.

 

What is the fastest way to get cut off as a spotter giving a count or trying to call a "p"?

Start your sentence with, "I think"

 

You can opine and think and debate all you wish.  But absent a "RULE" - you cannot determine something to be against the rules.

 

I'd vote for that. 

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16 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

So while we are on subjective, be it shoes or pants or even shirts like this daniel-whitney-edu.jpg

How does a match director make a call on these things.

 

IMO this shirt worn by Larry the Cable Guy is not legal as it is not "typical of the late 19th century, a B-Western movie, or Western television series."

 

The Mongo shirt, as worn by Shooting Bull, was ruled by the ROC to be a vest, which is legal clothing.

 

IMO it is not a vest, it is a shirt with the sleeves torn off.  Again IMO, it is legal because it was worn by a character (Mongo) in a in a B-Western, Blazing Saddles, which was set in 1874.

 

This time the ROC gave us the reasoning behind the ruling. IMO the reasoning that a shirt without sleeves is a vest is not logical and opens the door for such costumes as worn in the photo Ace posted.

 

About the shoes that started this all, I concur with the ruling and agree that the logic would be helpful

 

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Posted (edited)

Blazing Saddles was B-Western Movie??????  Not in any definition I have found!

It was a PARODY of a Western Movie is as close as it gets.

 

The next step is someone showing up in a white sheet and a hood wanting to shoot cowboy action!

 

Besides, the Mongo thing was ruled upon years ago. The reasoning was stated! Clearly!

 

This thread is suppose to be about TRANSPARENCY in rulings so that Match Directors everywhere can can hang their hat on similar items without running back to "mama" for and opinion. 

 

If Mongo's shirt is legal, the Larry's shirt is legal.... Because no category is really REQUIRED to wear a shirt according to the rules and these are ruled VESTS. (No category is required to wear pants either, but that should be another thread)

 

This thread is about why this footwear is prohibited. I posted a picture of an authentic moccasin with cactus kicker toe protectors and I am curious as to how I distinguish one from the other. (Assuming the AUTHENTIC Indian moccasin is ruled legal).

 

(For the record - Shooting Bull/ MONGO is a good friend of mine and I happen to like his Mongo outfit. I just don't find anything written in the rules that make it legal)(And for those who can;t find the reference to the rule ---- Short sleeve shirts are a prohibited item for men only).

 

To get back to the original post - If I passed out a picture of the footwear at a shooters meeting and told everybody present that this footwear is illegal, 99.9% of them would look to me with WHY on their face. I hope there is an answer to that question.

 

The rule book has never been carefully crafted and leaves many things to common sense. Which in today's genre is REALLY not all that common.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

IMO this shirt worn by Larry the Cable Guy is not legal as it is not "typical of the late 19th century, a B-Western movie, or Western television series."

 

The Mongo shirt, as worn by Shooting Bull, was ruled by the ROC to be a vest, which is legal clothing.

 

IMO it is not a vest, it is a shirt with the sleeves torn off.  Again IMO, it is legal because it was worn by a character (Mongo) in a in a B-Western, Blazing Saddles, which was set in 1874.

 

This time the ROC gave us the reasoning behind the ruling. IMO the reasoning that a shirt without sleeves is a vest is not logical and opens the door for such costumes as worn in the photo Ace posted.

 

About the shoes that started this all, I concur with the ruling and agree that the logic would be helpful

 

 

Ace of Hears might know more about this because he was in direct contact with the ROC when that decision was made.  I'm reading between the lines here but I think they ruled it a vest to sort of throw me a bone.  If they had ruled it to be legal because it was worn by a major character in a movie I'd have had to wear EVERYTHING worn by that character.  That means the metal shackles pictured.  Not cool when trying to shoot. 

Edited by Shooting Bull

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Candygram for Mr. Shooting Bull....Candygram.

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16 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Ace of Hears might know more about this because he was in direct contact with the ROC when that decision was made.  I'm reading between the lines here but I think they ruled it a vest to sort of throw me a bone.  If they had ruled it to be legal because it was worn by a major character in a movie I'd have had to wear EVERYTHING worn by that character.  That means the metal shackles pictured.  Not cool when trying to shoot. 

IIRC That ruling only applies to the BW category.

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Well, if I remember correctly, the OP did mention sausage. 

Does Schnitzengruben count? :ph34r:

Yarn | No, thank you. Fifteen is my limit on schnitzengruben ...

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8 hours ago, Hendo said:

So footwear rulings will be based on how much BP they hold from here on out?

 

 

:ph34r:

You tryin to upstage Joe Biden with comments like that?

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2 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

No category is required to wear pants either, but that should be another thread

 

I believe that men shooting in B-Western category have to wear pants.

 

Quote

Pants  must  be  jeans,  ranch  pants,  or  pants  with  flap  over  the  rear  pocket, keystone  belt  loops,  and/or  piping  or  fringe.

Pants  must  be  worn  with  a  belt.

Ladies  may  wear  dresses,  skirts,  or  split  riding  skirts.

Pants  suspenders  are  not  allowed. 

 

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7 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

 

This thread is about why this footwear is prohibited. I posted a picture of an authentic moccasin with cactus kicker toe protectors and I am curious as to how I distinguish one from the other. (Assuming the AUTHENTIC Indian moccasin is ruled legal).

The moccasin in your picture is a moccasin. The other footwear is imho obviously not a moccasin, or would you really call that shoe a moccasin? It may have some style elements similar to a moccasin such as the cactus kick but this doesn't make it a moccasin.

 

Equanimous

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It is very simple.

One of the first things we teach in this game is the spotter song.

 

It you KNOW it's a hit - it's a hit.

If you THINK it's a hit - it's a hit.

If you KNOW it's a miss - it's a miss.

If you THINK it's a miss - it's a hit.

 

I humbly propose; the same standard needs to be applied to rules/ rulings and opinions.

 

If you KNOW it's legal - it's legal

If you THINK it's legal - it's legal

If you KNOW it's illegal - it's illegal.

If you THINK it's illegal - it's legal.

 

Our game has subjectivity within it - but in EVERY case, that subjectivity should go in favor of the shooter.

 

What is the fastest way to get cut off as a spotter giving a count or trying to call a "p"?

Start your sentence with, "I think"

 

You can opine and think and debate all you wish.  But absent a "RULE" - you cannot determine something to be against the rules.

I would not disagree with this basic philosophy, except for EVERY case of subjectivity.  I have always virtually practiced it, and have encouraged it in the classes that I taught. Subjectivity is always going to be with us. It is a part of any and every game that is played anywhere. The biggest reason for training is to attempt to get everyone on the same page when it comes to applying the rules, and hopefully the subjectivity involved will come across in a much more even manner across the board. It is ABSOLUTELY impossible to list every thing that could and does happen. Anyone that must be provided with an absolute cut and dried answer to everything is a poor person to be making any decisions. It takes a good T.O. that is well trained with the rules, understanding the reason is indeed helpful, and has a further understanding of the RO3 course (common sense) and is not afraid to actually enforce the rules to do the job. Anyone that just lets things "Slide" because they don't agree with them should NOT be in any position of rule enforcement. Seeing things with a broad eye and not splitting hairs is one thing and trying to find a legal reason to NOT nail the shooter is something that all T.O.s should be doing, but turning a blind eye just hurts everyone in the game. Don't do it. 

 

Snakebite

Edited by Snakebite
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I saw a couple western movies where they were shooting Blackhawks duelist style. Does that mean we can use Blackhawks in the duelist and gunfighter categories?

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Thankfully, the part on firearms is way better described in the SHB than something like "all guns must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-Western movie, or Western television series" :D    But would be some fun to discuss :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Thankfully, the part on firearms is way better described in the SHB than something like "all guns must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-Western movie, or Western television series" :D    But would be some fun to discuss :ph34r:

In the early days, that was about the size of it. It use to be "If it looks Cowboy, then it is Cowboy".  There was some merit with that, and for a while it worked........ until the game was invaded by a few shooters that were more obsessed with winning than playing the game. THAT is when things started going sideways, and more and more and more rules were made in an attempt to keep the game "Pure"... well, it didn't really work, did it. As long as we tolerate those that really don't care to play the game, then it will always be that way. Take a look at some of the early Photos in the Pinned area, and look at how folks dressed. You virtually never saw shooters dressed like modern day Rodeo fans. Now days a pair of Wranglers and a non-traditional Rodeo shirt are common place. All those Old Time Cloths just slow you down, and some folks have come to think that a 12 sec stage is what this game is all about. O-well, I'm sure that is so for some, but it yields very little Playing of the Game IMO.

 

SB 

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29 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

until the game was invaded by a few shooters that were more obsessed with winning than playing the game.  O-well, I'm sure that is so for some, but it yields very little Playing of the Game IMO.

 

SB 

And that is exactly why transparency on every "ruling" is required.

 

A leading voice in the game and rules proudly states...

Because someone plays the game differently, (but within the existing rules), they have "invaded the game".

Admits their opinion is the speedsters

"Yield very little playing of the game".

 

These are not the type of comments we should hear from someone concerned about fair and equal application of rules - but sound more like the desire to apply arbitrary and subjective application of opinion.

 

"Do it like I do it and it's PURE.

Do it differently than me and you're an invader."

 

As long as played within the written and codified rules - Your version or vision of the game is no more valid (or pure) than any others.  

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Well believe what ever you want. Playing within the rules is, was and always will be Subjective, whether you like it or not. Most of us do the best we can. 

 

Snakebite 

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Thank you Snakebite for your very interesting comment about the old days. It seems that we over here in Switzerland are way "behind" and old-fashioned, imho fortunately :wub:  I am glad that the few people here doing CAS are almost all still of that "original" attitude with dressing up and seeing CAS not just as only shooting the guns of the old west, but "beeing kind of old west". We are not reenacting and it's the shooting game that is important. But it's called Cowboy Action Shooting and not Cowboy Guns Action Shooting. Yeah, some clothing worn back then may slow you down, but so do also the guns themselves! I mean, I would definitely shoot faster with 10 rounds in my semi-auto (but still slower than Deuce) and my SIG 550 as rifle (and also the better choice for long range :D).

 

1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

Now days a pair of Wranglers and a non-traditional Rodeo shirt are common place.

 

As a new shooter reading the SHB, I don't get it how Wranglers and a non-traditional Rodeo shirt comply with "all clothes must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-Western movie, or Western television series" (but I am not into Western TV series...) Maybe a lot of people are just focusing on the outlawed items? If it's not outlawed then it must me legal? And probably it was just a gradually process and "everybody was doing it" more and more.

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28 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

"Do it like I do it and it's PURE.

Do it differently than me and you're an invader."

 

 

Just for the RECORD, keeping the game PURE is a quote made by the Founder of the game, Judge Roy Bean. It was made many times, but the most memorable was in his address to the TGs at a meeting in the Old Frontier....  

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35 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Just for the RECORD, keeping the game PURE is a quote made by the Founder of the game, Judge Roy Bean. It was made many times, but the most memorable was in his address to the TGs at a meeting in the Old Frontier....  

I don't really care who said it - It is an arrogant and insulting term toward 1000's of dues paying members shooters who don't believe participation in a shooting game requires a 10 gallon hat and woolly chaps.

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29 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I don't really care who said it - It is an arrogant and insulting term toward 1000's of dues paying members shooters who don't believe participation in a shooting game requires a 10 gallon hat and woolly chaps.

You would lose a lot of new shooters if they couldn't wear wranglers and a "western" shirt.

I concentrated on the hardware when I started as I already had Wranglers, snap western shirts, several pairs of Ariats and a couple of Stetsons. I keep my focus on shooting, the people and having fun. I'm slowly building up on the other areas, but if I had to get a full get up and all the accoutrements right out of the gate to play this game, then no, I would've taken a pass and just watched Duece's videos on YouTube. 

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3 minutes ago, Hendo said:

You would lose a lot of new shooters if they couldn't wear wranglers and a "western" shirt.

I concentrated on the hardware when I started as I already had Wranglers, snap western shirts, several pairs of Ariats and a couple of Stetsons. I keep my focus on shooting, the people and having fun. I'm slowly building up on the other areas, but if I had to get a full get up and all the accoutrements right out of the gate to play this game, then no, I would've taken a pass and just watched Duece's videos on YouTube. 

 

We'd lose a lot of shooters period.

 

4 minutes ago, Hendo said:

 I keep my focus on shooting, the people and having fun.

 

Thank goodness for punctuation. The first time I read this I didn't see the comma and read it like "I keep my focus on shooting the people and having fun." :lol:

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

We'd lose a lot of shooters period.

 

 

Thank goodness for punctuation. The first time I read this I didn't see the comma and read it like "I keep my focus on shooting the people and having fun." :lol:

 

 

I was thinking that exact same thing as I was pecking it out. :lol:

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

We'd lose a lot of shooters period.

 

 

Thank goodness for punctuation. The first time I read this I didn't see the comma and read it like "I keep my focus on shooting the people and having fun." :lol:

 

 

To be fair in our discussion here, I don't think we ought to only look at participant losses from people who prefer dress other than in the traditional dress of the "game". 

I think that as we try to rationalize or spin the wording of the rules to enable us to morph the game away from its traditional cowboy roots and toward things like Steam Punk and Wild Bunch, you certainly will lose a lot of us who came for the traditional game.  Perhaps many will just figure we're expendable.  But I think they might underestimate the number of us who are here for what SB calls "the game", plus the tradition, the game's history and just getting together with friends to play COWBOY.  

I for one will stand and congratulate the ROC for the balancing act they continually perform.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Jeans and a western shirt with snaps are required for B-Western.  They are perfectly acceptable for age based categories.

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Gee the red heels and the non-logo shoes look so period correct, I could't hardly tell the difference.  If Creeker wants to wear the red heels I say let him.

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