WTC, hypothetical

[Dusty Devil Dale]

WTC?  Shooter has a squib with his pistol (last gun used in stage).  T. O. stops shooter and takes gun to the ULT, where squib cannot be successfully cleared, but all guns are unloaded and verified by ULTO as clear. 

Shooter then goes to his cart and  changes to a back-up pistol.  Unfortunately, he shows up at next Loading Table with spent cartridges in the back up gun from prior off-site practice the prior day.   

Rules say:

 

Leaving the ULT without clearing all firearms will result in the penalty (SDQ) being assessed on the stage where the infraction was committed.  Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.  

 

In the subject case, it is known that no unloading violation/infraction occurred during the match.  But the competitor DID arrive at the designated loading area with an uncleared firearm after completing a stage within the same day.  

WTC? 

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

If the pistol can be confirmed as not being used on any stage in the match, no call.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

No call

OLG 

[Cat Brules]

SDQ......PERIOD!

 

Cat Brules

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Its a 'No Call'.

 

And if I am not mistaken, if there is a break in the action during the day, such as a lunch break,

and a shooter was known to shoot their match pistols during lunch, and shows up at the

next stage with empties from their lunch time practice, I think that has also been ruled

as a No Call in the past.

 

I will be eager to learn if I continue to be 100% right..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[Cypress Sun]

Boolah, Boolah. No exceptions.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Its a 'No Call'.

 

And if I am not mistaken, if there is a break in the action during the day, such as a lunch break,

and a shooter was known to shoot their match pistols during lunch, and shows up at the

next stage with empties from their lunch time practice, I think that has also been ruled

as a No Call in the past.

 

I will be eager to learn if I continue to be 100% right..... 

 

..........Widder

 

That even beats Rush.  He only claims to be right 99.97% if the time.  

[Flash]

^

[Yusta B.]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

This is the rule:

 

• -  Leaving the unloading table without clearing all firearms will result in the

  penalty being assessed on the stage where the infraction was committed. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

Are you saying SDQ ?

 He never left a ULT THAT SHOOT with empties in his pistol. NO call.

[Flash]

13 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

^

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Bet PWB is ROTFLHAO 

OLG 

[Yusta B.]

6 minutes ago, Flash said:

I am saying according to the rule book it is a SDQ. I have been looking to see if I can find any exceptions or clarifications  to this rule and have not found any. Maybe Palewolf can check into it.

 

 

"Leaving the unloading table without clearing all firearms will result in the

penalty being assessed on the stage where the infraction was committed"

 

How are you going to give him an SDQ on a stage/practice he may have shot 3 days a whole day ago ?

 

Edit: when it happened.

[Flash]

^

[Yusta B.]

I guess we disagree  on what it says 

[Flash]

13 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

^

[Yusta B.]

Yes - just a little contradictory .....

[Captain Bill Burt]

6 minutes ago, Flash said:

If you only look at the first part of the Loading Table convention I agree with you but the second part is pretty clear. "Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage."

The backup gun wasn't a part of the 'completing a stage' described in the rule books.  I think we can also conclude that the statement 'leaving the loading table without clearing all firearms' refers to firearms used/carried on that stage, not firearms in your cart, your trunk, or your safe at home. 

[Flash]

12 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

^

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Just now, Flash said:

But the rule does not say I get a pass if I switch guns. That is all I am saying.

 

True.  The rule also doesn't say how long you have to clear your guns, nor does it say what happens if you put your gun down with your left hand and pick it up with your right. A penalty for failing to follow loading and unloading procedures applies to guns that were actually loaded and unloaded, or should have been, on that stage.   Now to be fair I could be wrong (it's happened more than a few times, just ask my wife), but I don't think so in this case.

[Yusta B.]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

But the rule does not say I get a pass if I switch guns. That is all I am saying.

 

If you switched guns then you would get an SDQ on the stage you previously used the gun on that day.

[Flash]

12 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

^

[Captain Bill Burt]

I think it may be a moot argument, as it would be pretty hard to prove that it was a backup gun, and if that couldn't be proved then it's SDQ time.  

[Yusta B.]

5 minutes ago, Flash said:

Now we are really getting into the weeds that could have been a month ago!  This is what is says in the rule book. 

 

Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage. Page 29

I was referring to the statement where you inferred that you may switch guns during a match - meaning that if you did - then you would have used the offending gun on a previous stage that same day and deserved the SDQ.

[Flash]

12 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

^

 

[Major Crimes]

I cant believe I am finally buying into one of these, I must be mad

 

I agree with Flash.

 

There is a full stop after the sentance about clearing weapons at the unloading table and then it says "Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage."  There is no statement as to when that firearms was last used just 1. there is an uncleared firearm, 2. You have fired a stage already that day (not neccessarily with that firearm).

 

This to me is a means of assuring (alright it doesnt stop people doing it but it provides a penalty and like kids we learn when our bottoms are smacked, well most of us do some just like the smacking, I'm looking at you Phantom!) that we dont bring uncleared firearms onto the range, regardless of when we start using them.

 

Now this may not be the intention of the rule but I think we all can agree that regardless of when we rotate firearms it would be good if they werent loaded/uncleared regardless of when they were last shot.

 

So if the intent of the sentance above is not to stop (punish) rotated firearms not shot that day from being uncleared then perhaps we need a rule that does that?

 

To that end I agree with Flash that the sentance in question rightly identifies the need for all firearms coming to the LT to be cleared before they arrive there regardless of when they were last used, again if that isnt the intent then maybe it should be expanded to cover that need.

 

Let the Aussie bashing begin

[Rye Miles #13621]

9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think it may be a moot argument, as it would be pretty hard to prove that it was a backup gun, and if that couldn't be proved then it's SDQ time.  

Even he he swears to God on a bible that he never used that gun that day?

[Yusta B.]

5 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

I cant believe I am finally buying into one of these, I must be mad

 

I agree with Flash.

 

There is a full stop after the sentance about clearing weapons at the unloading table and then it says "Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage."  There is no statement as to when that firearms was last used just 1. there is an uncleared firearm, 2. You have fired a stage already that day (not neccessarily with that firearm).

 

This to me is a means of assuring (alright it doesnt stop people doing it but it provides a penalty and like kids we learn when our bottoms are smacked, well most of us do some just like the smacking, I'm looking at you Phantom!) that we dont bring uncleared firearms onto the range, regardless of when we start using them.

 

Now this may not be the intention of the rule but I think we all can agree that regardless of when we rotate firearms it would be good if they werent loaded/uncleared regardless of when they were last shot.

 

So if the intent of the sentance above is not to stop (punish) rotated firearms not shot that day from being uncleared then perhaps we need a rule that does that?

 

To that end I agree with Flash that the sentance in question rightly identifies the need for all firearms coming to the LT to be cleared before they arrive there regardless of when they were last used, again if that isnt the intent then maybe it should be expanded to cover that need.

 

Let the Aussie bashing begin

 

You're way too far away to bash & besides I hung around with some Aussies at Hell On Wheels a few years back & they were great blokes ! Anyway - if you don't get punished for doing it on the first stage of the day why should you get slapped on later stages ? 

[Hoss]

18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think it may be a moot argument, as it would be pretty hard to prove that it was a backup gun, and if that couldn't be proved then it's SDQ time.  

You could just ask the shooter. 

[Hoss]

For the record, I’m in the no call camp. 

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

3 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

 

You're way too far away to bash & besides I hung around with some Aussies at Hell On Wheels a few years back & they were great blokes ! Anyway - if you don't get punished for doing it on the first stage of the day why should you get slapped on later stages ? 

Maybe we should change the rule to include the first stage.

Was at the LT once on the first stage when the lady next to me started to load a pistol she'd been carrying around all morning and discovered she'd forgotten to remove the 6 jacketed HPs she kept in it at home.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Ok-If, that is the case then. 

Just how wet, is wet? 

OLG 

 

[Turkey Flats Jack]

No call. I believe this would fall under the clarification that I saw somewhere. Showing up at the loading table for the first stage of the match with empty shells still in the gun. Didn't happen that day so no sdq. I've been wrong before though. 

 

T.F. Jack

[Yusta B.]

36 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Maybe we should change the rule to include the first stage.

Was at the LT once on the first stage when the lady next to me started to load a pistol she'd been carrying around all morning and discovered she'd forgotten to remove the 6 jacketed HPs she kept in it at home.

Maybe so - but 1st stage doesn't count NOW.

[doc roy l. pain]

52 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Maybe we should change the rule to include the first stage.

Was at the LT once on the first stage when the lady next to me started to load a pistol she'd been carrying around all morning and discovered she'd forgotten to remove the 6 jacketed HPs she kept in it at home.

This is how I feel. Every time I read a post like this I cannot believe how complacent we have become about gun safety. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

NO CALL.

The revolver was not used on the previous stage, so there was no penalty for "failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures" as that ONLY pertains to firearms actually USED on a previous stage.
That section of the rules must be read in its entirety and in the correct context.
IMO...New rules or amendments are neither necessary nor required to cover the OP situation.

........................
Walking around with a fully LOADED (w/ unfired rounds) firearm off the firing line is a violation of:

Quote

 

 All firearms will remain unloaded except while under direct observation of a designated person on the firing line or in the designated loading and unloading areas.

 

SHB p.17

as well as:

Quote

Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round. 

SHB p.23

(aka the "Cold Range Rule"...with penalties up to and including a MDQ depending on range rules)