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Dusty Devil Dale

WTC, hypothetical

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7 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

This is how I feel. Every time I read a post like this I cannot believe how complacent we have become about gun safety. 

 

How exactly does one individual's action/inaction reflect on how complacent WE have become about gun safety (unless the violation was ignored) ?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

^

Edited by Flash

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1 minute ago, Flash said:

Just to clarify, if I switch guns on say the 5th stage and it has empties in it from the day before, the ruling is no call. This part of the rule does not apply?  "Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage."

 

What part of the quoted statement is unclear?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

^

 

Edited by Flash

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When I say “we” I’m referring to fellow shooters putting firearms away from a shooting outing without fully checking that they are empty. The same applies to removing the firearms from cases and not checking them before they are either holstered or put in our gun carts

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2 minutes ago, Flash said:

Just to clarify, if I switch guns on say the 5th stage and it has empties in it from the day before, the ruling is no call. This part of the rule does not apply?  "Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage."

It also doesn't apply in the instance of two shooters who share pistols. 

 

If shooter A shot first, and forgot to unload their pistols, and then the shooter B on that same stage shows up at the loading table with the empties from shooter A still on the pistol, it is shooter A who received the penalty on that stage even before they left!

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I know y’all will COMPLETELY disagree with me on what I’m about to say ... I’m flabbergasted.... but if there are cases in a revolver, empty or otherwise, it is irresponsible gun handling at worst and poor etiquette at the very least. I check my pistol when I put it IN the case after I’m done shooting, AND when I take it OUT of the case to CLEAN it...every time I handle it, I check it...  not saying it can’t happen to me but if it did, I’d SDQ myself. 
 

I understand the rules and shall follow

them.  

 

BIG hugs!

 

Scarlett

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To reiterate:

 

"The revolver was not used on the previous stage, so there was no penalty for "failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures" as that ONLY pertains to firearms actually USED on a previous stage.
That section of the rules must be read in its entirety and in the correct context."

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I know y’all will COMPLETELY disagree with me on what I’m about to say ... I’m flabbergasted.... but if there are cases in a revolver, empty or otherwise, it is irresponsible gun handling at worst and poor etiquette at the very least. I check my pistol when I put it IN the case after I’m done shooting, AND when I take it OUT of the case to CLEAN it...every time I handle it, I check it...  not saying it can’t happen to me but if it did, I’d SDQ myself. 
 

I understand the rules and shall follow

them.  

 

BIG hugs!

 

Scarlett

Well said Scarlett. I agree completely!

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Posted (edited)

^

Edited by Flash
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1 hour ago, Yusta B. said:

 

You're way too far away to bash & besides I hung around with some Aussies at Hell On Wheels a few years back & they were great blokes ! Anyway - if you don't get punished for doing it on the first stage of the day why should you get slapped on later stages :)

 

and there was the flaw in my argument:rolleyes:

 

Yep as usual PWB has the intent and context down pat and I get he is right that the rule has to be read as a whole and in context, no argument here.

 

Yep as PWB says there are other rules that cover carrying live ammo in your gun that wasnt done as part of the LT- Stage-ULT routine.

 

I am surprised though that I can turn up with a gun which hasnt been cleared (from a previous days practice/match) of fired/empty cases and not receive any form of penalty (and hence behaviour modification) not that I should need that to modify my behaviour but some dont get it til it hits them between the eyes.

 

Anyway I have learnt some more SHB rules nuance and am a little better prepared for a TO role in the future, thanks all.

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Posted (edited)
spacer.png ^  
    spacer.png
Edited by Flash
added comma

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That completely ignores the very FIRST sentence in the referenced section:

Quote

Leaving the unloading table without clearing all firearms will result in the penalty being assessed on the stage where the infraction was committed.

 

Which is what I meant regarding CONTEXT.

 

...and, BTW, that quoted response was hidden, then deleted for a reason.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

^

Edited by Flash

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2 minutes ago, Flash said:

OK sorry, didn't know you hide it for a reason, I guess this is something we need to take up in the TG meetings. I won't do it again.

 

Take up WHAT, exactly?

How to handle a shooter who might LIE to get out of a penalty?

If I was the T/O or PM, I would be verifying whether anyone observed the shooter clear both revolvers on the previous stage

and/or

ask the shooter to prove the existence of an "extra" revolver.
If caught in the LIE, the penalty would be a
MDQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct" instead of the SDQ.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Take up WHAT, exactly?

How to handle a shooter who might LIE to get out of a penalty?

If I was the T/O or PM, I would be verifying whether anyone observed the shooter clear both revolvers on the previous stage

and/or

ask the shooter to prove the existence of an "extra" revolver.
If caught in the LIE, the penalty would be a
MDQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct" instead of the SDQ.

 

PWB, I sincerely apologize for posting this OP, and consuming most of your evening.  Thank you.  (and I agree with your No Call).  You obviously put a great deal of care, time and effort into daily helping all of us understand the proper application of the rules.  Your help and knowledge are VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!  

 

DDD

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

^

 

Edited by Flash

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Posted (edited)
Here's another example of the importance of reading the ENTIRE section of a rule in the proper context:
Quote

 

- A live round left in the chamber of a long gun carries a Stage Disqualification penalty.
- A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded, results in a Minor Safety Violation.  
- Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the firearm is made safe. 

 

SHB p.28
 
Does that last line mean that the shooter can drop the loaded firearm, break the 170° rule, or sweep others with the loaded "malfunctioning firearm" on the way to the ULT (after making it safe during the stage engagement) with NO PENALTY?
Does declaring a malfunction negate the 5-second "miss" penalties for any "unfired rounds"?

It does NOT if that statement is read & applied in the CONTEXT of the previous two statements re penalties for "round(s) remaining".
(and common sense re safe firearm handling).

IMO...the rule re assessing a SDQ for arriving at the LT with uncleared firearms needs no "editing" for clarification.
 
 
Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
delete text
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3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO...the rule re assessing a SDQ for arriving at the LT with uncleared firearms needs no "editing" for clarification.

 

7 hours ago, Flash said:

I guess this is something we need to take up in the TG meetings.

 

Does it help to realize that there is no penalty and all for showing up at the loading table with empties still in the gun?

 

And, what I mean by that, is the penalty it's actually

 

SHB pg 28

Quote

Failure  to  adhere  to  loading  and  unloading  procedures. 

 

That is why the penalty isn't awarded on the first stage of the day.

 

So, let's say we have a shooter who's shooting two sets of pistols. He is shooting his Rugers on odd number stages as Colts or even number stages.

 

He gets to the loading table at stage 5 and he finds that he has empty cases in his pistols. 

 

The stage DQ is awarded on stage 3, as that was the stage those Rugers were not emptied at the ULT. in this case, the shooter does not receive a penalty on the previous stage, but rather two stages ago.

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36 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Does it help to realize that there is no penalty and all for showing up at the loading table with empties still in the gun?

 

And, what I mean by that, is the penalty it's actually

 

SHB pg 28

Quote

Failure  to  adhere  to  loading  and  unloading  procedures. 

 

That is why the penalty isn't awarded on the first stage of the day.

 

Now THAT clarifies a lot.

 

Thanks!

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34 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

Now THAT clarifies a lot.

 

Thanks!

 

Technically speaking, the penalty is earned when:

 

ROI pg 92

Quote

*”Failure to adhere to loading/unloading procedure”, resulting in a Stage Disqualification penalty, is assessed at the following point: Once control of the firearm(s) is relinquished; be it in a rack on the stage or at the shooter’s gun cart. (i.e. leaves the shooters hand(s), having bypassed the loading/unloading table.

 

Finding empties in a gun at the Loading Table is only discovering a safety infraction that happened when control of the firearm(s) was relinquished at a previous stage, having bypassed the loading/unloading table.

 

That is why the penalty is applied, not at the stage where the empties were discovered, but rather at the stage where the infraction occurred.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Flash said:

Well, not that I would do this but now I know how to get out of a SDQ for not unloading a pistol.

You don't have to agree with the rules, but it is helpful to be aware of what they are.  In this case it sounds like sour grapes to me.  You don't like the rule, or the way it's written, so you're going to get snippy about it. 


This is not how to 'get out of a SDQ'.  Most TOs are going to want some support for the contention that you're using that pistol(s) for the first time that day.   Could someone conceivably  take advantage of that, I guess so if the Cadillac they're not going to win means more to them than their honor.

 

The rule makes perfect sense.  You don't penalize someone for failing to follow unloading procedures for a firearm they didn't have at the ULT in the first place. 

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