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Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

WTC: A stage full of knockdowns and a rifle malfunction

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A previous thread on the Wire that has gone on to be big topic included what seems to be a hard WTC situation for some to understand.   Let's go over that in more detail.  I have slightly added specifics where needed to enable us all to consider the situation in the same light.

 

Quote

Stage with 20 knock down targets, 10 rifle and 10 pistol.   Any misses can be made up with shotgun.  Targets must be down to be counted as a hit.  Shooter had a malfunction with rifle that left 6 unfired rounds in rifle.  Rifle was properly and safely discarded as a malfunctioning gun. Shooter started knocking down remaining  six targets, and ran out of shotgun ammo with 3 targets still up.

 

It was reported that the match at which this happened the stage was scored as 3 misses and 6 unfired rounds in the rifle counted as misses.

 

 

Let's first examine the stage setup.  There were 10 rifle targets that also could be made up with shotgun.  This essentially makes them rifle/shotgun targets.  There were 10 pistol targets that could be made up with shotgun, making them eligible to be taken with pistols or shotgun. 

 

When the rifle and pistol strings were complete, 6 rifle/shotgun targets remained up, and the rifle had been safely discarded with 6 rounds left in it.

 

Shooter fired shotgun until out of shotgun ammo, getting three of those targets to fall.

 

OK, let's look at the MISS FLOW CHART to see how to call this.

 

DID SHOOTER HIT ALL THE CORRECT TYPE OF TARGETS WITH LEGALLY ACQUIRED AMMO    ->   NO (three targets not hit (were not down))

      Targets were each hit with the correct type of gun and ammo.   All P/S targets hit with pistol.   R/S targets -> 4 hits with rifle, 3 hits with shotgun, 3 still standing

 

ASSESS MISSES  ->   3 TARGETS STANDING  ->  3 MISSES

 

WERE TARGETS HIT IN CORRECT ORDER EXCEPT FOR MISSES  ->  No order specified in stage instructions, so YES,  target order was acceptable

 

NO FURTHER CALL

 

 

We only penalize the number of rounds left in a properly-discarded-malfunctioning rifle if there were targets those rifle rounds had to be used on with NO OTHER WAY to make up rifle misses.  Then we count the number of rounds in the rifle simply to confirm the number of targets that HAD to be hit with those unfired rounds.  And the unfired rounds are assessed as misses in normal situations when only rifle rounds are available to hit rifle targets.

 

But when the stage description allows the (rather unusual) make-up procedure of hitting any standing targets with the shotgun, it is now no longer only the rifle shots that can go on the R/S targets, but also as many shotgun rounds as the shooter brought to the line legally.

 

I believe the correct call, from the MISS FLOW CHART, is just 3 misses.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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That would be my take according to the stage instructions. The 6 rifle targets were counted as misses as they should have been, but the instructions said misses could be made up with the shotgun except he didn't have enough shells for 6 misses and could only make up 3 of the misses. Had he had more shotgun shells he could have had a clean stage even with a faulty rifle according to the stage instructions.

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How could they count the unfired rounds as misses while saying misses can be made up with the shotgun?

 

Three misses.

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My take would be a minor safety for the rounds left in the rifle and 3 misses for the targets left standing

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Minor safety?? The rifle malfunction was declared and it was properly discarded.

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Believe our applicable rule for a malfunctioning rifle that may contain live rounds is:

 

Quote

Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long
as the malfunction is declared and the firearm is made safe.

From Shooter's Handbook, page 28.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Rifle was declared a malfunction and safely discarded, as TO agreed. So potentially 6 misses but 3 were made up with the shotgun, so 3 misses nothing more, nothing less.

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SHB page 22

Quote

5-SECOND PENALTIES Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes: - Each missed target. - Each unfired round. - Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ. - Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake. - Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition.

 

My understanding has been that an unfired round is a 5 second penalty and scored as a miss only to make it easier to score.  Under that understanding the scenario above gets a bit muddy as to if those unfired rounds are truly misses and can be made up with the shotgun. 

 

However, reading the above from the SHB it would appear that an unfired round IS included in the definition of a miss, and therefor making up those rounds with the shotgun under stage instructions is an option.

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Is %#&&@#$%& declaring a malfunction firearm.?

                                                                                                    Largo

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10 minutes ago, largo casey #19191 said:

Is %#&&@#$%& declaring a malfunction firearm.?

 

I'd say it's a rather vigorous declaration of malfunction.  B)

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4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

I believe the correct call, from the MISS FLOW CHART, is just 3 misses.

 

3 misses.  Seems pretty obvious. 

Why else would a shooter use clock time to "make up" targets with the SG, if the rifle misses were still going to be counted?  Am I missing something here? 

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Since I was the one to bring up this in the other thread, guess I should add my 2 cents. I used this example to point out the difference between a miss and an unfired round "scored as a miss" as Grizzly Dave posted SHB page 22. When the instructions say engage 10 targets with 10 rounds from your rifle and you only engage 4 targets for whatever reason, the shooter could not make up the 6 unfired rounds since they were not "misses", they are only scored as misses. I believe the best this shooter could have done was the 6 unfired rounds scored as misses even if all the targets were knocked down. This was some time back, but I recall the 3 targets left standing were actually pistol targets, which messes up the whole idea that 3 of the 6 unfired rounds can be attributed to the 3 "missed" targets, since they could not have been "missed" by the rifle. So 3 misses and 6 unfired rounds = 45 seconds.

 

Similar scenario, 4 KD SG targets must be engaged with 4+ SG. Targets are positioned in such a way it is easy to hit 2 with 1 shot, yet if the shooter does not "engage with 4+ rounds" they incur a "unfired round" 5 second penalty even though all 4 targets went down with 3 shots.

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2 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

My understanding has been that an unfired round is a 5 second penalty and scored as a miss only to make it easier to score.  Under that understanding the scenario above gets a bit muddy as to if those unfired rounds are truly misses and can be made up with the shotgun. 

 

However, reading the above from the SHB it would appear that an unfired round IS included in the definition of a miss, and therefor making up those rounds with the shotgun under stage instructions is an option.

Dave,

You are correct......There was a subtle but significant change in the 5-Second Penalty area of the rule books. Prior to 2017 the SHB did not list the details about misses.The RO1 listed different types of 5 second penalties....here is that section
 

Quote

OLD RO1 - no longer applies

5-SECOND PENALTIES
Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A ―miss‖ is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural ―trap‖ by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.

Each missed target.

Each unfired round.

Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver are misses unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, then it is a stage disqualification.

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

Each target hit with ―illegally acquired‖ ammunition.

 

 

NOW the SHB list different types of MISSES and since misses, which includes unfired rounds, can be made up per the stage instructions the shooter would only earn 3 misses for the KD's left standing.

Quote

Current SHB - Page 22

5-SECOND PENALTIES

Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:

- Each missed target.

- Each unfired round.

- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.

- Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake.

- Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition.

 

 

 

Stan

Edited by Santa Fe River Stan,36999L
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47 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I believe the best this shooter could have done was the 6 unfired rounds scored as misses even if all the targets were knocked down

 

And that is where you were wrong, as I read the rules.  Go back to Grizzly Dave's post and my OP and read it over carefully when it shows that in the latest SHB the unfired round is indeed now an actual miss in the miss definitions, and the "special makeup instructions" on this stage certainly allow the shotgun to make up either rifle or pistol targets.

 

Good luck, GJ

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It was a round count stage.  3 misses, next shooter

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Doesn’t matter what the “real,” or “original” stage scenario was.

 

This scenario was presented here as 20 kd’s.....10P and 10R.... make up misses with SG.

 

10P rounds fired....10 kd’s Scored

 

The rifle was properly declared “down,” due to a malfunction after 4 fired rounds.  That means that those 6 remaining kd’s and corresponding unfired rifle rounds would be recorded as misses.  Misses UNLESS, all or some of the those remaining 6 kd’s were incrementally reduced by being knocked down by shotgun.fire.

 

BY ENGAGING EVEN ONE of the remaining 6 kd’s with the SG, that eliminated the rifle from ANY FURTHER consideration for misses.  The fact that the shooter took down 3 kd’s with the SG before running out of shells, left the 3 remaining kd’s as SG targets.  No shotgun ammo left??  THEN, 3 shotgun misses. PERIOD, for the stage.

— Any other call is WRONG.   3 misses = 15 seconds penalty

 

Cat Brules 

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24 minutes ago, Bulldog Brown said:

It was a round count stage.  3 misses, next shooter

I don't think it being a round count has anything to do with it.

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

And that is where you were wrong, as I read the rules.  Go back to Grizzly Dave's post and my OP and read it over carefully when it shows that in the latest SHB the unfired round is indeed now an actual miss in the miss definitions, and the "special makeup instructions" on this stage certainly allow the shotgun to make up either rifle or pistol targets.

 

Good luck, 

GJ, I THINK I agree with 3 misses but not for the reasons stated so far. Here goes, and I hope people can follow me because I'm not the best at staying in line. I tend to loop.

    The stage instructions called for all of the rifle targets to be engaged with the rifle FIRST by using the term "can be made up". You can't "make up" an unengaged target. Otherwise the shooter could skip the revolver or pistols altogether. That means that 6 targets were not engaged by the rifle(or atleast 5). This gets back to the post you and I discussed the other day. Does a malfunctioning firearm give you a get out of P card with regards to target engagement?

HOWEVER:

GJ, tell me if I am remembering this correctly. It seems as if I read a comment from either PWB or Branchwater Jack that stated rounds left in a pistol or rifle were treated like rounds jacked out of a rifle. That would mean the rifle targets were engaged by a rifle 1st and would mean 3 misses only. 

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These are some of the "special instructions"  commonly encountered in stage instructions, and what that means to the calls that can/cannot be made.

 

Round count --- only  means that most Procedurals for order of targets go away (a P cannot apply due to order of targets shot in a sequence)

 

Any gun order but rifle not last --- means you don't get a P for wrong gun order, as long as the pistols or the shotgun are shot last.

 

Makeup with XXX or by doing YYY ----  means that some (or all) misses can be removed by shooting some extra shots.

 

They are really independent of each other.   You can have a round count stage without makeups, or with makeups.   You can have makeups or not on a "target pattern (like two sweeps from same direction)" stage.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Try as we may, we have never fully recovered for mixing the definitions of misses and procedures.

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10 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

 

Makeup with XXX or by doing YYY ----  means that some (or all) misses can be removed by shooting some extra shots.

 

Good luck, GJ

Agreed; however, "make up rifle misses with shotgun" does not mean you can engage the targets with the shotgun before the rifle has engaged the specified target. That will earn you a P for not following the stage instructions. I am still not on board with rounds left in a firearm are actual misses because the quoted reasoning behind giving the P on our other thread and similar ones is "rounds left in the revolver are scored as misses".

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6 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

Minor safety?? The rifle malfunction was declared and it was properly discarded.

There is nothing mentioned in the original post about a rifle malfunction, just that it was discarded with rounds left in it.

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6 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Rifle was declared a malfunction and safely discarded, as TO agreed. So potentially 6 misses but 3 were made up with the shotgun, so 3 misses nothing more, nothing less.

Where in the post does it say the shooter declared a malfunction?

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I've seen a stage shot where rifle knockdowns missed could be made up with shotgun.  And then a shooter came to the line with an empty rifle.   Tried to shoot once, declared a loading malfunction, threw rifle down and finished with shotgun - clean.  I've also seen rifle shot on pistol knockdown front plates.   Obviously the rifle targets were not engaged.  Those got made up  with shotgun.  

 

And I've seen the "field of knockdowns" which is usually a random scattering of KD targets.   IF this stage description says "make up any still standing with the shotgun", then it does not matter if a target was never engaged with either rifle or pistol.  

 

Seems like as long as a knockdown target is not yet down, it is a miss - with no regard of whether the shooter engaged it with some other gun.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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"Rifle was properly and safely discarded as a malfunctioning gun." was in the original post.

 

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9 minutes ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

There is nothing mentioned in the original post about a rifle malfunction, just that it was discarded with rounds left in it.

 

Sure there was.   Look in the quote-box of OP.

 

"Shooter had a malfunction with rifle that left 6 unfired rounds in rifle.  Rifle was properly and safely discarded as a malfunctioning gun. "

 

Oops, Good thing we have timers; Marauder just beat me to that by 27 hundredths.....:lol:

GJ

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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I see it now...that was an extremely confusing description...just 3 misses....

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5 minutes ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

There is nothing mentioned in the original post about a rifle malfunction, just that it was discarded with rounds left in it.

"Rifle was properly and safely discarded as a malfunctioning gun"

 

The proper way is to declare the malfunction, then safely stage the gun. As the statement says it was done properly and safely discarded, the implication is the shooter properly declared the rifle malfunction and safely re-staged it.

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19 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I've seen a stage shot where rifle knockdowns missed could be made up with shotgun.  And then a shooter came to the line with an empty rifle.   Tried to shoot once, declared a loading malfunction, threw rifle down and finished with shotgun - clean.  I've also seen rifle shot on pistol knockdown front plates.   Obviously the rifle targets were not engaged.  Those got made up  with shotgun.  

 

And I've seen the "field of knockdowns" which is usually a random scattering of KD targets.   IF this stage description says "make up any still standing with the shotgun", then it does not matter if a target was never engaged with either rifle or pistol.  

 

Seems like as long as a knockdown target is not yet down, it is a miss - with no regard of whether the shooter engaged it with some other gun.

 

Good luck, GJ

I have to wholly and emphatically disagree with the first two paragraphs. To me that is unfathomable.

 

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"shrug"

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I've never heard of declaring a "loading malfunction". 

For instance: rifle scenario is triple tap each of the 3 rifle targets and then shoot the knockdown. KD can be made up with shotgun.

Shooter only loads 9. He triple taps the 3 rifle targets and then engages the KD with the shotgun. He has a P.

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I've never heard of declaring a "loading malfunction". 

For instance: rifle scenario is triple tap each of the 3 rifle targets and then shoot the knockdown. KD can be made up with shotgun.

Shooter only loads 9. He triple taps the 3 rifle targets and then engages the KD with the shotgun. He has a P.

 

Quote

Failure to bring enough ammunition to the line to complete a stage is scored the same as misses for any un-fired rounds. 

SHB p.28

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Bet PWB is gasping for a breath of air now.:lol:

OLG 

 

You'd lose that bet!

Once the correct call was made (with references), there was really no need to comment further.

(other than corrections regarding misapplication of the rules). 

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