What is the Call - Loading more than 2 shotgun shells in 97?

[Hawkeye Kid]

First local match - shooter picked up shotgun (1897) shot 2 rounds - than loaded 4 more for the remaining shotgun targets.  We didn't have a handbook handy - later page 27, shotgun can only be loaded with 2 rounds.  What is the call for the remaining 4 rounds?  Misses?  Would the shooter be able to make up the misses - even when the knockdowns or flyers have been shot?

[Bones Z]

Procedural. Its not a miss it he hit it.

 

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

Here's a companion question. Should someone have stopped him when he went for that 3rd round, or do you just let him load and access the penalty? 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

SDQ - Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures. 

[NannyOakley]

Only the first 2 shots out of the 4 loaded, will count the other 2 will be misses. after that if he needs to reload 2 to make up the 2 misses, he can

[Widder, SASS #59054]

As a side note, he can legally GRAB 4 shells in his hand(s), but he can't load more than 2 in the SG at a time.

 

P.S. - his technique is also one of the slowest techniques to use the 97, in my opinion.

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Did the stage description allow for 'stoking'?

Was this a SASS event or W3G?

OLG

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, NannyOakley said:

Only the first 2 shots out of the 4 loaded, will count the other 2 will be misses. after that if he needs to reload 2 to make up the 2 misses, he can

Can you help me out and tell me where it says this would be the case?

 

I would call it a P.

 

Thanks!

 

Phantom

[Too Tall Bob]

Or, for sake of argument - he/she loads 4, shoots 2 of them and ejects last two out of gun. Uh oh!  Now what?  Only 4 shots fired as per stage instructions.......

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Or, for sake of argument - he/she loads 4, shoots 2 of them and ejects last two out of gun. Uh oh!  Now what?  Only 4 shots fired as per stage instructions.......

Irrelevant...the P would be for the act of loading and not for the act of shooting.

 

Phantom

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

11 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Or, for sake of argument - he/she loads 4, shoots 2 of them and ejects last two out of gun. Uh oh!  Now what?  Only 4 shots fired as per stage instructions.......

 

IMO...wasted time loading & unloading the extra rounds

...+ the "P".

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...and I don't know anyone who can "stoke" a '97 so fast that the T/O couldn't stop them.

 

[Too Tall Bob]

19 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Irrelevant...the P would be for the act of loading and not for the act of shooting.

 

Phantom

 

 

Pg 27 of SHB - “Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description.”

Concur with “P”

 

[Chantry]

2 hours ago, KH24 said:

First local match - shooter picked up shotgun (1897) shot 2 rounds - than loaded 4 more for the remaining shotgun targets.  We didn't have a handbook handy - later page 27, shotgun can only be loaded with 2 rounds.  What is the call for the remaining 4 rounds?  Misses?  Would the shooter be able to make up the misses - even when the knockdowns or flyers have been shot?

 

Bad Chantry, no cookie.    I hadn't realized the rules had changed.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Chantry said:

 

Bad Chantry, no cookie.    I hadn't realized the rules had changed.

 

 

FWIW - That's been in the Shooters Handbook since (at least) 1992...the earliest version I have on hand.

[Chantry]

10 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

FWIW - That's been in the Shooters Handbook since (at least) 1992...the earliest version I have on hand.

 

Interesting, while I don't see too many people stoking a 97 these days, when I started back in 1996, there were always a couple of shooters who would stoke the 97 on the clock and I don't recall a procedural being called back then.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Chantry said:

 

Interesting, while I don't see too many people stoking a 97 these days, when I started back in 1996, there were always a couple of shooters who would stoke the 97 on the clock and I don't recall a procedural being called back then.

 

Maybe they didn't know the rules either.

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

How deep is that hole going to get?

[Rye Miles #13621]

This just came up yesterday at a shoot. I was the TO, the shooter asked if he could stoke more than two. I asked one of the spotters who is a well known champ and he said NO, only two! I had forgot about that rule since in 20+ yrs of me shooting it's NEVER come up until yesterday! 

[LostVaquero]

If you want to stoke a 97 go Wild Bunch shooting.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Stage description("you may stoke")can allow it...

Some clubs allow it as SOP.

 

OLG

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

If you want to stoke a 97 go Wild Bunch shooting.

Many clubs allow stoking of their 97's...some folks (usually not the "Top" finishers), enjoy doing it.

 

Phantom

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Many clubs allow stoking of their 97's...some folks (usually not the "Top" finishers), enjoy doing it.

 

Phantom

We both shot at a great club, where it was SOP. 

OLG

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

One time, after I had already blown the clean match, I said I was gonna do it, just give me the P.   I was told don't, it would be a SOG penalty.  

 

So I didn't.

 

Personally, I think stoking on the clock should always be allowed all the time.  But it's not.

[Yul Lose]

49 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

If you want to stoke a 97 go Wild Bunch shooting.

Some clubs allow it and it ain’t WB. Fun none the less.

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

Here is some tough love, If you are a RO and have to ask than  

[Hud McCoy]

On 4/14/2019 at 7:10 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Can you help me out and tell me where it says this would be the case?

 

I would call it a P.

 

Thanks!

 

Phantom

Definitely a P

[Brazos John]

SOG? I bet the cowboys stoked their '97s and '87s as SOP.

Why else would there be magazines?

 

And, you can stoke your rifle off the clock, so why do the rules prevent stoking a pump or lever shotgun?

 

BTW, THSS writes stoking into all stages.

 

Comments?

 

 

 

[Cheatin Charlie]

Your club is not following SASS rules so you must not be a SASS affiliated club.  Either follow the published rules or don't call yourself a SASS club!

 

Clubs can do whatever you want but they are not in the spirit of the SASS organization.  Does that mean I can shoot smokeless powder in a blackpowder category just because the club says it is OK?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Your club is not following SASS rules so you must not be a SASS affiliated club.  Either follow the published rules or don't call yourself a SASS club!

 

Clubs can do whatever you want but they are not in the spirit of the SASS organization.  Does that mean I can shoot smokeless powder in a blackpowder category just because the club says it is OK?

This is so wrong.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description.

SHB p.27

(emphasis added)

[Yul Lose]

26 minutes ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Your club is not following SASS rules so you must not be a SASS affiliated club.  Either follow the published rules or don't call yourself a SASS club!

 

Clubs can do whatever you want but they are not in the spirit of the SASS organization.  Does that mean I can shoot smokeless powder in a blackpowder category just because the club says it is OK?

On a club level if they allow it, yes you can. A couple of clubs I shoot at allow stoking a 97 on the clock. They also allow folks to shoot Outlaw and Josie Wales. These clubs are SASS affiliated.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

59 minutes ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

Your club is not following SASS rules so you must not be a SASS affiliated club.  Either follow the published rules or don't call yourself a SASS club!

 

Clubs can do whatever you want but they are not in the spirit of the SASS organization.  Does that mean I can shoot smokeless powder in a blackpowder category just because the club says it is OK?

 

SASS doesn't have an 'OVER THE BERM= MDQ' rule.   Does that mean that ALL SASS clubs must do away

with their Over The Berm penalties?

I don't think so.

 

The "spirit of the SASS organization" is that it allows SASS affiliated clubs to have variances that are allowable

at the local level, although they emphasize some of those local allowances are not permissible at the State

and above SASS matches.

 

..........Widder

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

PaleWolf has given the answer, stoking on the clock is allowed, if the stage instructions are written to say it's okay.   But, at least in my experience, very few clubs actually write their stages that way.   It's allowed for, but not done very often.

 

As to why you don't preload your shotgun like a rifle, well, that does make sense to me.  Allowing 87 and 97 shooters to do that would truly give them an unfair advantage over folks using a SxS. 

 

I would say on the clock stoking should be always allowed.   I would oppose the idea of pre-loading your shotguns like a rifle.

 

At the moment, the rules say load no more than 2, so that's how I do it.   This is one of a very small handful of rules that I think could be changed without harming the game.   But, a game MUST have rules, and they should not be lightly changed, and certainly not ignored outside of some sort of "specialty" match where people know going in how it is an unusual event.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Hi Brazos.  

 

The 87 and 97 were designed and built for Market hunters.  Nothing at all to do with "cowboys."  As has been mentioned, the original rule for NOT stoking the 97 was done to eliminate the perceived advantage over SxS shotguns.