Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 30 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: So you've loaded using BP substitutes...?? And some places don't allow the sale of real BP...so... I have shot up pyrodex that was given to me in shotgun shells, that is as close as I come to subs. But, I have shot with a lot of folks that use subs, and it’s not the same. I shoot black in a matchlock, wheellock, flint locks, cap locks, and cartridge guns. I used to shoot it in cannons, but had to stop when I moved to Alaska. It is not easy shooting black in Alaska. There is one store that carries it at $23 a pound and I can’t order it by the case, like I used to (I still remember the time ups left 80 pounds on the front steps with no signature). If if I couldn’t buy it, I guess I would make due with something else, but I would not go to a national BP match and pretend that my substitute was BP. As always, this is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: I have shot up pyrodex that was given to me in shotgun shells, that is as close as I come to subs. But, I have shot with a lot of folks that use subs, and it’s not the same. I shoot black in a matchlock, wheellock, flint locks, cap locks, and cartridge guns. I used to shoot it in cannons, but had to stop when I moved to Alaska. It is not easy shooting black in Alaska. There is one store that carries it at $23 a pound and I can’t order it by the case, like I used to (I still remember the time ups left 80 pounds on the front steps with no signature). If if I couldn’t buy it, I guess I would make due with something else, but I would not go to a national BP match and pretend that my substitute was BP. As always, this is just my opinion. An opinion not based on experience... Not a slam on you, but simply stating a fact. I shoot both at every match. The only important thing as far as SASS is concerned is the smoke. My rifle round are 777 and smoke just fine. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheatin Charlie Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 27 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said: Update I had a discussion today with 2 of the principles that oversaw the long range side matches. Here's the summary: They received some bad input regarding the use of BP subs. The SASS rules have since been reviewed and they acknowledge that they made a bad call. They are going to retrieve the scores from the long range side match. New award(s) will be made up and sent to those individuals that had originally earned the award. This should bring this to a close. Have a great weekend, BS I am glad they stood up and admitted their mistake and made amends. A lesson to all of us to make sure we know the rules before making a call. Now back to our regular scheduled Sat. broadcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: I mostly shoot black because it makes sparks & flame and a satisfying boom different from the subs. There are times I use subs such as when I've run out of BP lubed bullets. Given that I load both, the above statement is baffling to me. What "challenges" and "work" are sub users getting around? Developing accurate bp loads for long range rifles (the subject of the original post) is quite a challenge. Doing it with smokeless or subs is not easy, but there are more variables with BP. As for pistol rounds, bp I s pretty straight forward. Use the right lube, fill the case enough to get a slight crush and bob’s your uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Developing accurate bp loads for long range rifles (the subject of the original post) is quite a challenge. Doing it with smokeless or subs is not easy, but there are more variables with BP. As for pistol rounds, bp I s pretty straight forward. Use the right lube, fill the case enough to get a slight crush and bob’s your uncle. So in your opinion, those variables are sufficient to ban the powder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Did this bad info about the use of bp subs come from the 2nd place shooters who subsequently moved up to first. The explanation still isn't the full story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: An opinion not based on experience... Not a slam on you, but simply stating a fact. I shoot both at every match. The only important thing as far as SASS is concerned is the smoke. My rifle round are 777 and smoke just fine. Phantom So, in your great experience, can you honestly tell me that shooting bp and 777 are the same? Same recoil signature, same fouling, same clean up, same smoke? Tell me all about making the different lubes you have tried to get 777 to shoot properly. How about the work you did to select the right size and brand of 777 that shoots best in your rifle? How about the work you did to figure out how much crush you needed or whether a card wad helps or hurts with 777? Yep, all SASS worries about is the smoke, but BP and subs ain’t the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: So in your opinion, those variables are sufficient to ban the powder? In BP class. We already have a million classes, have another for subs. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bearded Wonder Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 My personal opinion is that arguing over the differences of real BP and BP Subs is better suited for another thread I believe this thread was about rules at a particular shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, The Bearded Wonder said: My personal opinion is that arguing over the differences of real BP and BP Subs is better suited for another thread I believe this thread was about rules at a particular shoot. Couldn’t agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: In BP class. We already have a million classes, have another for subs. Just my opinion. We have two classes for propellants, BP and Smokeless. I'm unaware of the "million classes" you refer too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 minute ago, The Bearded Wonder said: My personal opinion is that arguing over the differences of real BP and BP Subs is better suited for another thread I believe this thread was about rules at a particular shoot. ...regarding an arbitrary ruling the match directors made based on personal prejudice of differences between the propellants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: So, in your great experience, can you honestly tell me that shooting bp and 777 are the same? Same recoil signature, same fouling, same clean up, same smoke? Tell me all about making the different lubes you have tried to get 777 to shoot properly. How about the work you did to select the right size and brand of 777 that shoots best in your rifle? How about the work you did to figure out how much crush you needed or whether a card wad helps or hurts with 777? Yep, all SASS worries about is the smoke, but BP and subs ain’t the same thing. If you look at the IP address, you'll notice it says SASSNET. That means SASS is the central focus of this forum. Your making substitutes sound as a lesser experience does a disservice to those looking at participating in a BP category. All that other stuff you mentioned is just superfluous noise... In my opinion Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 39 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: If you look at the IP address, you'll notice it says SASSNET. That means SASS is the central focus of this forum. Your making substitutes sound as a lesser experience does a disservice to those looking at participating in a BP category. All that other stuff you mentioned is just superfluous noise... In my opinion Phantom Not a lesser experience, a different one. And, not superfluous noise, experience and knowledge. As always, they are not for everyone. But, please feel free to tell me all about what SASS is. I have only been shooting it for 30 something years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 36 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: Did this bad info about the use of bp subs come from the 2nd place shooters who subsequently moved up to first. The explanation still isn't the full story. No. They received input from a knowledgeable BP shooter, but his expertise was in another discipline/shooting sport. BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Still, someone, after the fact, had to initiate the decision to consider changing the results on some basis. Whatever the reason. Why would they use information from someone whose expertise was in another discipline to alter the results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Henry 7046 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: We have two classes for propellants, BP and Smokeless. I'm unaware of the "million classes" you refer too. For Long Range, per the OP question (Is there any rule that would disqualify a participant from a long range side match for using synthetic black powder such as 777, black mz, etc?) The rule book is clear that there isn’t a “SMOKELESS” class. There is, however, a “ANY PROPELLANT POWDER” class and then a protected “Buffalo Single Shot” class From the rule book: LONG RANGE (OR PRECISION) RIFLE Any propellant powder may be used (with the exception smokeless powder is not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 5 hours ago, Clyde Henry 7046 said: For Long Range, per the OP question (Is there any rule that would disqualify a participant from a long range side match for using synthetic black powder such as 777, black mz, etc?) The rule book is clear that there isn’t a “SMOKELESS” class. There is, however, a “ANY PROPELLANT POWDER” class and then a protected “Buffalo Single Shot” class From the rule book: LONG RANGE (OR PRECISION) RIFLE Any propellant powder may be used (with the exception smokeless powder is not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition). Which rulebook & page number, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said: Which rulebook & page number, please? Keystone, that last sentence is on page 31 of the Shooters Handbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Your making substitutes sound as a lesser experience does a disservice to those looking at participating in a BP category. I agree with this. While I have not yet purchased a long-range rifle, I plan on it as soon as funds allow. I plan on using APP or 777. The comments here make it sound as if I somehow do well, it is because of the powder I'm using and not load development and practice. It sounds very elitist to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 11 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: Still, someone, after the fact, had to initiate the decision to consider changing the results on some basis. Whatever the reason. Why would they use information from someone whose expertise was in another discipline to alter the results? Don’t know for sure but there may not have been a cowboy member available to handle the BP long range match and someone from the muzzleloader group volunteered. Just my theory based on what I was told by one of the parties involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Sounds like they're doing their best to make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Henry 7046 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said: Which rulebook & page number, please? Near the middle of page 31 in Version 23.2 dated Jan 2019. Here is a link https://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said: Sounds like they're doing their best to make it right. Does this mean that we need to put down the pitchforks then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Does this mean that we need to put down the pitchforks then? Yeah, probably won't need the tar and feathers either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, Captain Bill Burt said: Yeah, probably won't need the tar and feathers either. Darnit, I already had a good fire goin’ under the cauldron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: Yeah, probably won't need the tar and feathers either. “I haven’t lost my temper in forty years, but pilgrim you caused a lot of trouble this morning. Might have got somebody killed. And somebody oughta belt you in the mouth. But I won’t. I won’t. The hell I won’t!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: “I haven’t lost my temper in forty years, but pilgrim you caused a lot of trouble this morning. Might have got somebody killed. And somebody oughta belt you in the mouth. But I won’t. I won’t. The hell I won’t!” McClintock theme at TN State this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 I've shot the Yuma annual shoot for 15 years, didn't get there this year tho. I also shoot BP & subs and have shot the side match in question. Usually the Yuma folks are standup people. Kinda sounds like something went wrong in this case. I do shoot Goez & APP and like them both for what I use them for. I shoot subs because real BP is hard to find around here and APP does the job just fine. I am sure that the hunters, cowboys and gun toters back in the day, given a choice would like subs. Easier to clean is just one reason to like the subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 The good folks of Yuma have taken ownership of the issue and acknowledged it. They have taken appropriate steps to correct it and they have DONE THE RIGHT THING. Now, the right thing to do is to drop the subject. There is no need to keep on castigating them or casting dispersions about this match (especially if you have never shot at it). So, perhaps folks could start thinking about positive things. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Looks like this thread has served its purpose....might be a good time to close it down. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Let’s not beat them over the head with this folks. Mistakes were made and they are correcting them. I possed up with one of the original winners today and he is very satisfied with the way that the club is handling it. The problem that CAS is running into in many areas is not enough folks to do the work at big matches and when it comes down to it that’s what happened here. They used to have some really fun side matches but they just don’t have the manpower to set them up and run them anymore, I’m sure many clubs can relate to this. I’d like to tip my hat to them for making the effort to insure the winners are recognized and awarded and I’ll be there next year for the Yuma Territorial Prison Breakout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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