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Black powder substitutes in SASS sanctioned side matches?

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30 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So you've loaded using BP substitutes...??

 

And some places don't allow the sale of real BP...so...

I have shot up pyrodex that was given to me in shotgun shells, that is as close as I come to subs.  But, I have shot with a lot of folks that use subs, and it’s not the same.  

 

I shoot black in a matchlock, wheellock, flint locks, cap locks, and cartridge guns.  I used to shoot it in cannons, but had to stop when I moved to Alaska.  

 

It is not easy shooting black in Alaska.  There is one store that carries it at $23 a pound and I can’t order it by the case, like I used to (I still remember the time ups left 80 pounds on the front steps with no signature).  

 

If if I couldn’t buy it, I guess I would make due with something else, but I would not go to a national BP match and pretend that my substitute was BP.  

 

As always, this is just my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

I have shot up pyrodex that was given to me in shotgun shells, that is as close as I come to subs.  But, I have shot with a lot of folks that use subs, and it’s not the same.  

 

I shoot black in a matchlock, wheellock, flint locks, cap locks, and cartridge guns.  I used to shoot it in cannons, but had to stop when I moved to Alaska.  

 

It is not easy shooting black in Alaska.  There is one store that carries it at $23 a pound and I can’t order it by the case, like I used to (I still remember the time ups left 80 pounds on the front steps with no signature).  

 

If if I couldn’t buy it, I guess I would make due with something else, but I would not go to a national BP match and pretend that my substitute was BP.  

 

As always, this is just my opinion.

An opinion not based on experience... Not a slam on you, but simply stating a fact.

 

I shoot both at every match. The only important thing as far as SASS is concerned is the smoke. My rifle round are 777 and smoke just fine.

 

Phantom

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27 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Update

I had a discussion today with 2 of the principles that oversaw the long range side matches.  Here's the summary:

  • They received some bad input regarding the use of BP subs.  The SASS rules have since been reviewed and they acknowledge that they made a bad call.
  • They are going to retrieve the scores from the long range side match.
  • New award(s) will be made up and sent to those individuals that had originally earned the award.

This should bring this to a close.

Have a great weekend,

BS

I am glad they stood up and admitted their mistake and made amends.

A lesson to all of us to make sure we know the rules before making a call.

Now back to our regular scheduled Sat. broadcast. 

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7 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I mostly shoot black because it makes sparks & flame and a satisfying boom different from the subs. There are times I use subs such as when I've run out of BP lubed bullets.

 

Given that I load both, the above statement is baffling to me. What "challenges" and "work" are sub users getting around?

Developing accurate bp loads for long range rifles (the subject of the original post) is quite a challenge.  Doing it with smokeless or subs is not easy, but there are more variables with BP.  

 

As for pistol rounds, bp I s pretty straight forward.  Use the right lube, fill the case enough to get a slight crush and bob’s your uncle.

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2 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

Developing accurate bp loads for long range rifles (the subject of the original post) is quite a challenge.  Doing it with smokeless or subs is not easy, but there are more variables with BP.  

 

As for pistol rounds, bp I s pretty straight forward.  Use the right lube, fill the case enough to get a slight crush and bob’s your uncle.

So in your opinion, those variables are sufficient to ban the powder?

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Did this bad info about the use of bp subs come from the 2nd place shooters who subsequently moved up to first. The explanation still isn't the full story. 

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

An opinion not based on experience... Not a slam on you, but simply stating a fact.

 

I shoot both at every match. The only important thing as far as SASS is concerned is the smoke. My rifle round are 777 and smoke just fine.

 

Phantom

So, in your great experience, can you honestly tell me that shooting bp and  777 are the same?  Same recoil signature, same fouling, same clean up, same smoke?  Tell me all about making the different lubes you have tried to get 777 to shoot properly.  How about the work you did to select  the right size and brand of 777 that shoots best in your rifle?  How about the work you did to figure out how much crush you needed or whether a card wad helps or hurts with 777?  

 

Yep, all SASS worries about is the smoke, but BP and subs ain’t the same thing.

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5 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

So in your opinion, those variables are sufficient to ban the powder?

In BP class.  We already have a million classes, have another for subs.  

 

Just my opinion.

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My personal opinion is that arguing over the differences of real BP and BP Subs is better suited for another thread I believe this thread was about rules at a particular shoot.

 

 

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Just now, The Bearded Wonder said:

My personal opinion is that arguing over the differences of real BP and BP Subs is better suited for another thread I believe this thread was about rules at a particular shoot.

 

 

Couldn’t agree more.

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2 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

In BP class.  We already have a million classes, have another for subs.  

 

Just my opinion.

We have two classes for propellants, BP and Smokeless. I'm unaware of the "million classes" you refer too. 

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1 minute ago, The Bearded Wonder said:

My personal opinion is that arguing over the differences of real BP and BP Subs is better suited for another thread I believe this thread was about rules at a particular shoot.

 

 

...regarding an arbitrary ruling the match directors made  based on personal prejudice of differences between the propellants.

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1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

So, in your great experience, can you honestly tell me that shooting bp and  777 are the same?  Same recoil signature, same fouling, same clean up, same smoke?  Tell me all about making the different lubes you have tried to get 777 to shoot properly.  How about the work you did to select  the right size and brand of 777 that shoots best in your rifle?  How about the work you did to figure out how much crush you needed or whether a card wad helps or hurts with 777?  

 

Yep, all SASS worries about is the smoke, but BP and subs ain’t the same thing.

If you look at the IP address, you'll notice it says SASSNET. That means SASS is the central focus of this forum. 

 

Your making substitutes sound as a lesser experience does a disservice to those looking at participating in a BP category.

 

All that other stuff you mentioned is just superfluous noise... In my opinion ;)

 

Phantom

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39 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If you look at the IP address, you'll notice it says SASSNET. That means SASS is the central focus of this forum. 

 

Your making substitutes sound as a lesser experience does a disservice to those looking at participating in a BP category.

 

All that other stuff you mentioned is just superfluous noise... In my opinion ;)

 

Phantom

Not a lesser experience, a different one.

 

And, not superfluous noise, experience and knowledge. As always, they are not for everyone.

 

But, please feel free to tell me all about what SASS is.  I have only been shooting it for 30 something years.  

 

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36 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Did this bad info about the use of bp subs come from the 2nd place shooters who subsequently moved up to first. The explanation still isn't the full story. 

 

No.  They received input from a knowledgeable BP shooter, but his expertise was in another discipline/shooting sport.

 

BS

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Still, someone, after the fact, had to initiate the decision to consider changing the results on some basis. Whatever the reason. Why would they use information from someone whose expertise was in another discipline to alter the results?

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4 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

We have two classes for propellants, BP and Smokeless. I'm unaware of the "million classes" you refer too. 

For Long Range, per the OP question (Is there any rule that would disqualify a participant from a long range side match for using synthetic black powder such as 777, black mz, etc?)  The rule book is clear that there isn’t a “SMOKELESS” class.  There is, however, a “ANY PROPELLANT POWDER” class and then a protected “Buffalo Single Shot” class

From the rule book:

LONG RANGE (OR PRECISION) RIFLE

Any propellant powder may be used (with the exception smokeless powder is not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition).

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5 hours ago, Clyde Henry 7046 said:

For Long Range, per the OP question (Is there any rule that would disqualify a participant from a long range side match for using synthetic black powder such as 777, black mz, etc?)  The rule book is clear that there isn’t a “SMOKELESS” class.  There is, however, a “ANY PROPELLANT POWDER” class and then a protected “Buffalo Single Shot” class

 

From the rule book:

 

LONG RANGE (OR PRECISION) RIFLE

 

Any propellant powder may be used (with the exception smokeless powder is not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition).

 

Which rulebook & page number, please?

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1 hour ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Which rulebook & page number, please?

Keystone, that last sentence is on page 31 of the Shooters Handbook.

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12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Your making substitutes sound as a lesser experience does a disservice to those looking at participating in a BP category.

 

 

I agree with this. While I have not yet purchased a long-range rifle, I plan on it as soon as funds allow. I plan on using APP or 777. The comments here make it sound as if I somehow do well, it is because of the powder I'm using and not load development and practice. It sounds very elitist to me.

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11 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Still, someone, after the fact, had to initiate the decision to consider changing the results on some basis. Whatever the reason. Why would they use information from someone whose expertise was in another discipline to alter the results?

Don’t know for sure but there may not have been a cowboy member available to handle the BP long range match and someone from the muzzleloader group volunteered. Just my theory based on what I was told by one of the parties involved. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Sounds like they're doing their best to make it right.

Does this mean that we need to put down the pitchforks then?

 

1*DBBDDDbxMo_tbn6ZbFcBxA.png

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3 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Does this mean that we need to put down the pitchforks then?

 

1*DBBDDDbxMo_tbn6ZbFcBxA.png

Yeah, probably won't need the tar and feathers either.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yeah, probably won't need the tar and feathers either.

 

Darnit, I already had a good fire goin’ under the cauldron

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9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yeah, probably won't need the tar and feathers either.

mcclintock.jpg

“I haven’t lost my temper in forty years, but pilgrim you caused a lot of trouble this morning. Might have got somebody killed. And somebody oughta belt you in the mouth. But I won’t. I won’t. The hell I won’t!”

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5 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

mcclintock.jpg

“I haven’t lost my temper in forty years, but pilgrim you caused a lot of trouble this morning. Might have got somebody killed. And somebody oughta belt you in the mouth. But I won’t. I won’t. The hell I won’t!”

 

 

McClintock theme at TN State this year?

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I've shot the Yuma annual shoot for 15 years, didn't get there this year tho. I also shoot BP & subs and have shot the side match in question. Usually the Yuma folks are standup people. Kinda sounds like something went wrong in this case. I do shoot Goez & APP and like them both for what I use them for. I shoot subs because real BP is hard to find around here and APP does the job just fine. I am sure that the hunters, cowboys and gun toters back in the day, given a choice would like subs. Easier to clean is just one reason to like the subs.

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The good folks of Yuma have taken ownership of the issue and acknowledged it. They have taken appropriate steps to correct it and they have DONE THE RIGHT THING. Now, the right thing to do is to drop the subject. There is no need to keep on castigating them or casting dispersions about this match (especially if you have never shot at it). So, perhaps folks could start thinking about positive things.  Thanks. 

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Looks like this thread has served its purpose....might be a good time to close it down.

 

Kajun

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Let’s not beat them over the head with this folks. Mistakes were made and they are correcting them. I possed  up with one of the original winners today and he is very satisfied with the way that the club is handling it. The problem that CAS is running into in many areas is not enough folks to do the work at big matches and when it comes down to it that’s what happened here. They used to have some really fun side matches but they just don’t have the manpower to set them up and run them anymore, I’m sure many clubs can relate to this. I’d like to tip my hat to them for making the effort to insure the winners are recognized and awarded and I’ll be there next year for the Yuma Territorial Prison Breakout. 

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