Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Well here's my story....5 years ago my sweetie bought me a matching pair of 45 Colt Ruger Vaqueros. One of them, all I had to do was put new springs in and it has run like a top ever since. The other one, when i put 13 or 15 pound hammer springs in it, it will always have light primer strikes, and with 17, its kinda hard shooting duelist, by the 6th stage, that hammer gets pretty stout. I measured the headspace, as a couple cowboys on here told me how too, and the gap was a little larger than probably should be...So I sent it off to a really good cowboy gunsmith and hoped for the best. Well first match, she ran great...Saturday, had 1 out of 5 light primer strikes...SO...it's time for me to address ammunition instead of the gun, as I typically just load whatever primers I can find and didn't worry about it. So, the question is, what kind of primers would you guys recommend for a gun that is finicky and seems to need easier ignition? I have used all brands, CCI's is the norm for my retailer here in smallville, but I can order whatever is best. I know CCI's is said to be the hardest, so whatever you guys can tell me is helpful. I am at the point of if ammunition doesn't help, it will go to gunbroker and get replaced, tired of messing with it and shipping it off and such. BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Generally Federal primers are the easiest to set off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: Generally Federal primers are the easiest to set off. You are fortunate that you shoot 45 Colt rounds as large Federal pistol primers are readily available online at good prices. Buy a case or two of 5,000 primers and load away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 federal it is then, and i'm gonna hand seat them instead of use my hornady LNL so i can seat them flush and not over seat them in the slightest, make it as easy on the ole Vaquero AND me as possible lol BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Not seating primers deep enough is usually the problem, not the other way around. If they are not deep enough, the anvil is not in the primer compound and the first hit only seats the primer fully. Then the second hit usually sets it off. They need to be flush to a bit recessed. I take all my match ammunition and, one at a time, put them on a flat plate. Any wobble, they go in the rework bin. I then use a gauge to check the round before it goes into the ammo box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Solo Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 out of 5 with CCI is pretty good if you're using a 13lb spring! I have a 14lb spring and if I dont use Federal I'm about 2 out of 5 as misfires. Switch to federal and I can almost guarantee that all issues will disappear. Also, make sure you seat the primer all the way down, if you leave it partially unseated you're just asking for more misfires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 how do Federals compare to Remingtons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Try hand seating a batch of primers all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket. Don't crush them though. I have always seated them this way & had very few failures with Federal, Winchester or S&B primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Put a #10 AN washer at the hammer spring base. How much front to back movement do you have in the cyl? You want as close to '0' as you can get. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Put a #10 AN washer at the hammer spring base. How much front to back movement do you have in the cyl? You want as close to '0' as you can get. OLG I'll try that!...as far as movement, uh im not actually sure there, I can check when I get home and update y'all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Remington are almost as good as Federals, but not quite. Remington's are a little better than Winchesters and quite a bit easier to fire than CCI, even CCI & Federalare now owned by the same companty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Howdy I load Federal Large Pistol primers on my Hornady Lock and Load all the time. Have been doing so for many years. You want your primers fully seated. Not flush with the case head. You are not doing yourself or your 'ole vaquero' any favors if you don't seat the primers all the way. If the primer cup does not bottom out on the bottom of the primer pocket, some of the energy of the hammer fall will be used up seating the primer all the way down. A good way to have unreliable primer ignition. Seat them all the way down, so the hammer is not robbed of some of its energy fully seating the primer. In addition, with the Hornady Lock & Load AP after a while the primer punch will dig a shallow dent into the aluminum body of the press. When this happens, seating primers all the way becomes spotty. What I did was glue a thin fender washer over the dent in the press body so the primer punch bottoms on the steel, not the aluminum of the press. That way the punch bottoms on the steel which is much harder than the softer aluminum. I forget what I used to glue down the washer, probably rubber cement. Any thin piece of steel will do, so long as it is thick enough that the primer punch does not dent it. The fender washer was handy for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Do the initial seat on the press! Save yourself the work. It's pretty good at it. The washer shown in the pic is the right thing to do. Works very well. We just tape the washer down so it can be rotated every so often because even the steel washer gets a divot eventually. Whatever works. Primers are supposed to be a few thousandths PAST flush to be properly seated. Most presses have a hard time consistently getting them deep enough to be really perfect. So, if you want to be "really sure" the primer is the perfect depth and fully seated for important matches (or all matches if you choose) you seat them again with a hand tool later. It's far less trouble than doing the actual priming with the hand tool. Yeah, I know, it's a loaded round. So wear safety glasses or something if you feel the need but we've done hundreds of thousands of 38s that way and never set one off. The press does fine and the rounds usually shoot ok without the extra step, BUT the hand tool will seat many of them "just a hair more" and get them uniform as well as guaranteeing you won't have a high primer in the batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Does anyone ever check firing pin protrusion??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Primer seating depth is probably one of the most overlooked (read that as never looked at) components in CAS reloading. SAAMI specs for primer seating depth range from .002-.005 below flush. Any brand of primer will work better when seated properly. My Ruger with no transfer bars with custom sprigs that a much lighter than a 13 pounder will pop CCI's no problem because they are seated properly. Federals are my go to for CAS and my second choice would be Winchesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Some rugers will work with just a lighter main spring, but some won’t. I’d send the gun to a smith who is competent with tuning rugers for SASS. Id bet good money that there is a gun issue more likely than an ammo issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Bet W/O the t'bar, all would be good. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said: Does anyone ever check firing pin protrusion??? Or how gunk'd up the FP housing is. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said: Some rugers will work with just a lighter main spring, but some won’t. I’d send the gun to a smith who is competent with tuning rugers for SASS. Id bet good money that there is a gun issue more likely than an ammo issue. Well I just got it back from a very good, well known cowboy gunsmith who was supposed to correct it and do an action job on it, and I ain’t spending a dime shippingit back to him lol. If I ship this thing again, it’s gonna be to it’s new owner. I’m gonna attack it from an ammunition stand point and see if I can correct it that way, if not Gun broker it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 As NKJ stated, firing pin length can be an issue. Compare your firing pin protrusion to the gun that works correctly to rule that issue out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 If the primer is seated 'rite'(bottom of primer pocket in the case),you've done all you can. You could try some factory ammo, as a final ammo test. PLZ clarify-Are these OMV's, or NM? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: If the primer is seated 'rite'(bottom of primer pocket in the case),you've done all you can. You could try some factory ammo, as a final ammo test. PLZ clarify-Are these OMV's, or NM? OLG They are NMV 45 Colt Biseleys. I actually thought about factory ammo as a test as well. It entered my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 15 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said: Does anyone ever check firing pin protrusion??? just for clarification, to measure this, take the cylinder out, cock, press trigger to release hammer, hold trigger down so firing pin protrudes, then measure them against each other? Am I thinking correctly on how that would be done? BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Are these Wolff Springs you are using? Yes on FP check. Plz try the #10 AN washer trick. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Are these Wolff Springs you are using? Yes on FP check. Plz try the #10 AN washer trick. OLG All I ever used is wolff yes, not sure what the gunsmith that did the recent action job used on it but i cannot imagine anything but wolff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Call this g'smith and ask what brand and lb rating was used. Springs do take a 'set' with use. Do you have the spring he took out? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Call this g'smith and ask what brand and lb rating was used. Springs do take a 'set' with use. Do you have the spring he took out? OLG I sure don’t have any springs he may have removed, he didn’t really go over what all he did, just repair and action job, but like I say it was doing it when he got it so I’m gonna approach from ammunition for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 A bx of factory .45 Colt will ans that. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Buckshot Dobbs said: just for clarification, to measure this, take the cylinder out, cock, press trigger to release hammer, hold trigger down so firing pin protrudes, then measure them against each other? Am I thinking correctly on how that would be done? BD Pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I know a little more about Colt and copies thereof than I do about Roooogers. But an often overlooked aspect of the whole primer striking force is the drag on the hammer fall as the leg of the bolt slides over the cam on the hammer fall. If you assemble the action without the hammer spring and lower the hammer through its fall cycle, you can feel a definite drag about half to 2/3 way down. This (on a Colt Single Action) is the leg of the locking bolt ramping up and over the cam on the hammer. Then you'll hear a click as it falls off the back side of the cam. I have had to trim down and change the angle of the cam and polish it as well as polish the bolt spring legs. This greatly reduced the drag on the hammer fall and eliminated my FTF problems. Rugers probably has some kind of part that performs the same function. Maybe see if the hammer fall is dragging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 if one revolver works and the other doesn't with the ammo I would say the revolver is the problem I use a washer over my Marlin hammer spring to do the same thing as the pards above are suggesting to do on the NMV. (you can always cut more off, just a bit harder to cut more on ) That's all it takes for my rifle to give reliable ignition. depending on how much experimenting you want to do you can try the other hammer spring in the misfiring one. something not mentioned: could the grips in anyway be putting pressure on the trigger spring on anything else in the grip frame? keep us posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said: if one revolver works and the other doesn't with the ammo I would say the revolver is the problem I use a washer over my Marlin hammer spring to do the same thing as the pards above are suggesting to do on the NMV. (you can always cut more off, just a bit harder to cut more on ) That's all it takes for my rifle to give reliable ignition. depending on how much experimenting you want to do you can try the other hammer spring in the misfiring one. something not mentioned: could the grips in anyway be putting pressure on the trigger spring on anything else in the grip frame? keep us posted Well I had tried several different springs before sending it to a smith, and the ones that worked made it just too much to operate the gun one handed. I should have pointed out earlier, the headspace on the thing before sending to the smith was.008 if memory serves, so comparing the 2 revolvers isn't fair to the good one, that has headspace much more in line with what we use these things for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 26 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said: something not mentioned: could the grips in anyway be putting pressure on the trigger spring on anything else in the grip frame? Made me think.... at our last local match, a buddy had a Ruger that had problems. Turned out, the escutcheon had pulled through the griop and was pressing against the hammer spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Dobbs Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said: Made me think.... at our last local match, a buddy had a Ruger that had problems. Turned out, the escutcheon had pulled through the griop and was pressing against the hammer spring. don't think so, had original grips and some eagle grips, so probably would follow the grips I would think if it is grip related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Howdy, Did you try switching parts from the good one to the problem one? Just be very extra careful to keep track of which is which. Although taking apart a gun that works is just a little painful. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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