Shotgun Query

[Smoky Pistols]

Before I get to my question, let me post the following disclaimer:

I am not trying to change any of the existing rules or firearms requirements.  I don't want to start a new category, or change any procedures.  My request is purely informational.

 

That being said, why is it that we don't come to the firing line with shells pre-loaded in the shotgun magazine?  We load everything else at the loading table and bring it to the starting position, so why not the shotgun?  I mean, the pump action guns were designed to operate that way.  Not being completely up on firearm history and exact period correctness, but are we trying to replicate a certain era of shotgun development, or is this just a standard that was set when CAS was originally started?  Or is it an attempt to keep the playing field level between those shooting pumps and those who choose to shoot side by sides?  If that is indeed the case, then why do we allow side by side and lever action users to load two shells while the pump action shooter has to load one at a time? Can anyone tell me the reasoning behind it?  Just curious for my own sake.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

For the same reason we don't load 6 in the revolvers.

 

Phantom

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I shoot at a non sass sanctioned shoot that allows stoked shotguns (as does wild bunch). Most use 97’s and one guy uses an 87 (me). For those that use doubles, you are allowed to have two rounds loaded, but the gun must remain open. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

10 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

...Or is it an attempt to keep the playing field level between those shooting pumps and those who choose to shoot side by sides?  If that is indeed the case, then why do we allow side by side and lever action users to load two shells while the pump action shooter has to load one at a time?...

yes, that is why, and pump shooters can load TWO at a time as well (although most these days find it faster to single-load).

[Smoky Pistols]

12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

For the same reason we don't load 6 in the revolvers.

 

Phantom

That makes no mechanical sense at all.  A pump shotgun can have a fully loaded magazine and be closed on an empty chamber.

[July Smith]

As others have said, all shotguns start open and empty to sort of level the playing field between different makes and models. 

 

What don't I understand is how come pump and lever action shooters are not allowed to load more than two on the clock?  I understand the accepted fastest way to run a 97 in this game is to single load it, but for me personally, I can drop one in the action and then stoke three quicker than single loading each shot, it is more realistic too. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, Abilene nailed it.

[Shooting Bull]

Speaking from a SxS shooter's point of view:  Let's throw everything else to the wayside and look at it from a purely competitive point of view, it would slow you down.  When you pick up your shotgun during a stage you want to grab it and get it up to your shoulder as fast as possible.  If you do that with shells in the chambers they'd fly out and you'd have to load fresh ones anyway.  Even worse would be only one flies out or they only slip part way out and have to be aligned and pushed back in.  Much faster and easier to just start with two empty chambers and load fresh shells from the start.  

[Shooting Bull]

4 minutes ago, July Smith said:

As others have said, all shotguns start open and empty to sort of level the playing field between different makes and models. 

 

What don't I understand is how come pump and lever action shooters are not allowed to load more than two on the clock?  I understand the accepted fastest way to run a 97 in this game is to single load it, but for me personally, I can drop one in the action and then stoke three quicker than single loading each shot, it is more realistic too. 

 

Because not everyone shoots a pump or lever action.  

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

Speaking from a SxS shooter's point of view:  Let's throw everything else to the wayside and look at it from a purely competitive point of view, it would slow you down.  When you pick up your shotgun during a stage you want to grab it and get it up to your shoulder as fast as possible.  If you do that with shells in the chambers they'd fly out and you'd have to load fresh ones anyway.  Even worse would be only one flies out or they only slip part way out and have to be aligned and pushed back in.  Much faster and easier to just start with two empty chambers and load fresh shells from the start.  

In all my time of shooting the non sass match with double shooters, this has never happened. Not one single time. At least once a stage at a sass shoot, someone drops a shell when pulling it out of their belt and has to grab another one. So speaking from a purely competitive point of view, I think you’ve got it backward. 

[Smoky Pistols]

1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

Speaking from a SxS shooter's point of view:  Let's throw everything else to the wayside and look at it from a purely competitive point of view, it would slow you down.  When you pick up your shotgun during a stage you want to grab it and get it up to your shoulder as fast as possible.  If you do that with shells in the chambers they'd fly out and you'd have to load fresh ones anyway.  Even worse would be only one flies out or they only slip part way out and have to be aligned and pushed back in.  Much faster and easier to just start with two empty chambers and load fresh shells from the start.  

That I understand, I was just thinking that we voluntarily choose to not utilize a function that one of our firearms was specifically designed to take advantage of.  If, as stated by Abilene, it's to level the competitive field, then it is understandable.  I was just wondering this morning, and thought I would ask for a little background.

[Shooting Bull]

3 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

In all my time of shooting the non sass match with double shooters, this has never happened. Not one single time. At least once a stage at a sass shoot, someone drops a shell when pulling it out of their belt and has to grab another one. So speaking from a purely competitive point of view, I think you’ve got it backward. 

 

Could be.  I've never seen it done. I was trying to apply logic but I may have gotten it wrong. I should have phrased my post differently to show it was a slightly educated guess instead of phrasing as a fact. Sorry about that.

[Shooting Bull]

5 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

That I understand, I was just thinking that we voluntarily choose to not utilize a function that one of our firearms was specifically designed to take advantage of.  If, as stated by Abilene, it's to level the competitive field, then it is understandable.  I was just wondering this morning, and thought I would ask for a little background.

 

As was mentioned earlier, we do that same thing when we only load five in the pistols.  Different reason but same concept.

[Smoky Pistols]

Just now, Shooting Bull said:

 

As was mentioned earlier, we do that same thing when we only load five in the pistols.  Different reason but same concept.

That's what Phantom said, but I am failing to make the same correlation that the two of you are.  We leave an empty chamber in the pistol for the sake of safety-the rest of the cylinder (magazine, if you will) is fully stoked and ready to fire once the action is cycled.  The same could be said for the pump shotgun with a fully loaded tube and the bolt forward on an empty chamber.  Therefore, the shotgun would be considered fully loaded, but safe--the same as the pistol would.

[July Smith]

8 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Because not everyone shoots a pump or lever action.  

Well right, but there are pros and cons to shooting any type of shotgun.  Let the individual shooter pick their poison.   

[Shooting Bull]

2 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

That's what Phantom said, but I am failing to make the same correlation that the two of you are.  We leave an empty chamber in the pistol for the sake of safety-the rest of the cylinder (magazine, if you will) is fully stoked and ready to fire once the action is cycled.  The same could be said for the pump shotgun with a fully loaded tube and the bolt forward on an empty chamber.  Therefore, the shotgun would be considered fully loaded, but safe--the same as the pistol would.

 

In both of your examples (pump shotgun and pistols) you have the action closed on an empty chamber ready to be cocked and fired. You could include the rifle in the example because the magazine is fully loaded with the action closed on an empty chamber ready to be cocked and fired.  You can't do that with a SxS.  With a SxS if the action is closed on empty chambers you'd then have to open the action, load shells and close the action again before firing. 

[Smoky Pistols]

Okay--Now I see where you two are going.  Agreed

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

11 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Could be.  I've never seen it done. I was trying to apply logic but I may have gotten it wrong. I should have phrased my post differently to show it was a slightly educated guess instead of phrasing as a fact. Sorry about that.

Trying to apply logic to a fantasy game where a bunch of old fat men dress up like cowboys? What were you thinking? 

5 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

That's what Phantom said, but I am failing to make the same correlation that the two of you are.  We leave an empty chamber in the pistol for the sake of safety-the rest of the cylinder (magazine, if you will) is fully stoked and ready to fire once the action is cycled.  The same could be said for the pump shotgun with a fully loaded tube and the bolt forward on an empty chamber.  Therefore, the shotgun would be considered fully loaded, but safe--the same as the pistol would.

The phantom correlation works if you compare rugers to colts. So let’s say since rugers are safe to load six, we change the pistol strings to 12. If you’ve got a colt then you have to load the extra rounds on the clock. Is that fair for everyone? 

 

I do believe loading on the clock should be allowed. I’ve seen it allowed at shoots and never seen anyone fully load and shoot a 97 faster than one can shoot 4-6 targets with a double. But it’s fun for those that do it and at the end of the day this is a game. 

[Shooting Bull]

6 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Well right, but there are pros and cons to shooting any type of shotgun.  Let the individual shooter pick their poison.   

 

You're effectively eliminating the possibility of a SxS shooter ever being able to win. 

[Smoky Pistols]

2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You're effectively eliminating the possibility of a SxS shooter ever being able to win. 

No offense, but if a SxS shooter wins, then it means that the winner wasn't me since I shoot a pump.  So actually, I'm okay with the SxS shooter never winning!  LOL

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

49 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

That makes no mechanical sense at all.  A pump shotgun can have a fully loaded magazine and be closed on an empty chamber.

Well I wasn't trying to make "mechanical" sense.

 

There are certain safety measures we take...while at the same time trying to keep different style firearms from becoming non-competitive.

 

But...what do I know...

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

I think it's all because side by sides are so much cooler and look more cowboy but would not be competitive in a game where we could fully load the mags at the LT.  Does wild bunch allow double barrels?  If they do, do any of the top competitors use them? 

 

But I'm in the camp where I could never figure out why I can't stoke the SG on the clock.  Doesn't seem to be any faster to me and makes shooting those SGs more fun. 

[July Smith]

1 hour ago, Redwood Kid said:

I do believe loading on the clock should be allowed. I’ve seen it allowed at shoots and never seen anyone fully load and shoot a 97 faster than one can shoot 4-6 targets with a double. But it’s fun for those that do it and at the end of the day this is a game. 

 

Exactly!  I don't think loading an 87 or 97 on the clock with 4+ shells would give a speed advantage over a competent SxS shooter, but I do think it would give a speed advantage for some shooters to stoke an 87 or 97 rather than running them as a single shot. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

13 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

...But I'm in the camp where I could never figure out why I can't stoke the SG on the clock.  Doesn't seem to be any faster to me and makes shooting those SGs more fun. 

 

Many clubs in these parts do allow stoking the pump (or '87) on the clock.  Sometimes the stage instructions specifically say that.  Others don't but the club does allow it.  Some folks aren't really competitive but they do enjoy pumping out 4-6 rounds in short order.  If your club doesn't specify it in the stage instructions, ask the match director.  Keeping in mind of course that stoking the shotgun on the clock "for fun" will likely not be allowed at larger matches.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Or do as W3G doez........

Load 2 rnds where you stage the SG.

SxS have to be left open, and pumps/levers have to have a 'clear' chamber, but the action can be closed.

OLG

[The O'Meara Himself]

Historically. sxs shotguns were around for at least 100 years. Pumps came much later as an improvement. The only reason pumps are allowed in CAS is because the original bunch that invented SASS didn't have any sxs shotguns.

[Smoky Pistols]

32 minutes ago, The O'Meara Himself said:

Historically. sxs shotguns were around for at least 100 years. Pumps came much later as an improvement. The only reason pumps are allowed in CAS is because the original bunch that invented SASS didn't have any sxs shotguns.

I might be inclined to believe this--Lord knows, some rules have been made for lesser reasons!

[Yul Lose]

4 hours ago, July Smith said:

Well right, but there are pros and cons to shooting any type of shotgun.  Let the individual shooter pick their poison.   

It’s intent is to level the playing field between SxS’s and pump guns as I was told by a WB/SASS founding member years ago up at EMF, sadly he’s no longer with us.

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, The O'Meara Himself said:

Historically. sxs shotguns were around for at least 100 years. Pumps came much later as an improvement. The only reason pumps are allowed in CAS is because the original bunch that invented SASS didn't have any sxs shotguns.

 

Your SASS number indicates you'd know much more about this subject than I but, are you sure?  I was always told that '97s were allowed because they were used in the movie The Wild Bunch. 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

3 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Does wild bunch allow double barrels?  If they do, do any of the top competitors use them? 

No, only the 1897, the “93/97” or a Model 12, all pump shotguns.  Only 12 gauge, too.

[Captain Clark]

5 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

I think it's all because side by sides are so much cooler and look more cowboy but would not be competitive in a game where we could fully load the mags at the LT.  Does wild bunch allow double barrels?  If they do, do any of the top competitors use them? 

 

But I'm in the camp where I could never figure out why I can't stoke the SG on the clock.  Doesn't seem to be any faster to me and makes shooting those SGs more fun. 

Wild Bunch Ain't Cowboy shooting! 

WB also uses a gimmicky type pistol and outrageous round counts per stage 

IMO! 

 

 

 

 

[The O'Meara Himself]

Yup. I'm sure.

[Noz]

9 hours ago, July Smith said:

As others have said, all shotguns start open and empty to sort of level the playing field between different makes and models. 

 

What don't I understand is how come pump and lever action shooters are not allowed to load more than two on the clock?  I understand the accepted fastest way to run a 97 in this game is to single load it, but for me personally, I can drop one in the action and then stoke three quicker than single loading each shot, it is more realistic too. 

You can load as many as you like on the clock.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I will add another 'thought' into the reasons WHY we are not allowed to FULLY stoke the 87 or 97, whether on or off the clock.....

 

Because everyone, TO and Spotters, are relying on only 2 shells maximum are being inserted into the shotgun.   The TO and Spotter also

know the amount of rounds that should be in the rifle and pistols.

Knowing that there are ONLY 2 shells in each shotgun helps keeps everyone aware of the shotguns 'condition' when its discarded.

 

Ya have to ask yeself........... "Did he/she just stoke 4 or 5 into that shotgun.  Or was it 6?"

 

..........Widder

 

[Yusta B.]

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Ya have to ask yeself........... "Did he/she just stoke 4 or 5 into that shotgun.  Or was it 6?"

 

..........Widder

 

Better known as "The Dirty Harry dilemma ....."