WTC

[McCandless]

Ok, Cabin Fever is setting in.  Can't see my front sights yet, and even pictures I take are slightly out of focus.  Dang eyeball!  Hurry up and heal!

I've never seen this called or even mentioned, so I was wondering if this is even a penalty situation, and should it be?  Never seen it called.

 

.Shooter comes to the line, draws his pistol, draws back the hammer and "click", followed by 5 "bangs".  Seems like the hammer was down on a live round when they came to the line...

or

.Shooter comes to the line, picks up the rifle and levers a round, ejecting a live one in the process with that first levering, proceeds to fire 9 and then a reload.  Seems like the shooter came to the line with a live round in the chamber.

 

Has this ever been called?  I know the pistol situation has occurred, but I must admit, I've never seen this with the rifle.  Just a hypothetical musing on a Sunday Mornin'.  Coffee's on!

[Doc Shapiro]

Yes.  The first one I actually called on my wife.  Thankfully I didn't have to sleep with the dogs that night.

 

I don't believe I've ever seen the 2nd one.

[Griff]

Yes.  I've seen both, been the TO on the rifle.  Not very experienced shooter loaded rifle with lever partially open (73),  and when had 10, completed the forward stroke, then closed the action on a live round... lowered the hammer on same, and came to line.   First round out the top, unfired, had small dimple from firing pin on primer where it'd been resting.  SDQ.  As a spotter watched a more experienced shooter start with the rifle in hands, just reach up with thumb to cock hammer... Whoa!  Stop!  Yep, chambered round... SDQ.

[Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854]

Duc,

 

Yes, I have seen both and called both, followed by suggesting that we get a new loading table officer.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Duc,

 

The first one happened to me my first year shooting. It has happened a few other times as an isolated instance.

 

Before I explain, my MO has always been to check for no live round under the hammer after loading. I then lay the revolvers on the table until the shooter ahead of me heads to the line; then, I check again and holster.

 

On one stage, I went click, no fire, the second round fires. Then, it happened again on the next stage. It turned out that I had a problem with the gun, not the operator. I've heard it is not an unheard of occurrence that happens more frequently with Rugers. I believe that is why that one is rarely called.

 

I've seen the second one happen with a first time shooter on two stages. A ROII (who doesn't shoot anymore and loaned her the guns) offered to mentor her through the loading process before that happened. The PM explained what was what and it did not happen again. She was not penalized. After all, it was the ROII's fault and he wasn't shooting.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Scarlett]

I’ve not seen either occur however, the second was almost called on me in error. 

 

I shoot a Marlin .32 H&R. It loads through magazine tube - no loading gate. In order to load it, you must close action )and drop Hammer).  If I’m nervous or having a particularly  “exciting” stage, I’ve been known to jack the first round out of the rifle....when it’s the first gun and I pick it up and lever too soon or before it’s upright... I’ll most likely jack the first one out. A spotter “called what he saw” and said, “she must have had a live round under the Hammer”. “I saw a round come out..,,” 

 

once that happened and almost Most got me a DQ, I called my Marlin Whisperer, Widder, and asked him what I was doing wrong... he helped me correct it. I wasn’t getting a full stroke and then “jiggled” lever ...  

 

Scarlett

[Ace_of_Hearts]

5 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Yes.  The first one I actually called on my wife.  Thankfully I didn't have to sleep with the dogs that night.

 

I don't believe I've ever seen the 2nd one.

I called the very same thing on my lady.

 

The improperly loaded pistol I have called on a shooter, and I'll be darned if he didn't do the very same thing on the next stage. His 12 stage match turned into a 1 1/2 stage match.

 

[Hoss]

Hammer down on a live round is tricky. Have to be sure Shooter didn’t “short stroke” the first hammer pull.  We do have a regular Shooter who has been suspected of having their pistol mis-indexed. We decided to A: discuss in safety briefing, and B: watch really closely. The safety briefing emphasis took care of the problem, at least at that match. 

 

Never seen even a rifle have s love round come out on first levering. That one would be easier. 

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Marlins that haven't been "worked" are prone to ejecting rounds,,,  having said that, they dont eject them, the cartridges bounce out,,, not many cud tell the difference....

[Palmetto Traveller]

I have seen both. The first was a result of the shooter short stroking the first round. Fortunately a couple of the spotters were paying attn and it was a no call. The second resulted in a SDQ.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

If either a Ruger or Colt type action, the cylinder must be locked after loading (by turning to make sure the bolt is locked in the notch.). If the cylinder is not locked, the gun can look like the hammer is down on an empty chamber (and in fact is) but when the hammer is cocked the cylinder does not turn to bring the next round into battery.  

 

Another possibility is that the shooter “short-stroked” the gun.  

 

Still another possibility with  Colt type action is a poorly timed action where the cylinder over-rotates to the point that it falls between the number 1 and number two rounds.

 

Just because the first hammer fall did not result in a fired round, followed by five shots is not enough to say conclusively that the shooter had the hammer down on a live round.  It does call for making sure that the loading officer is aware of the proper loading techniques for the types of revolvers that we use.

 

In a ‘73 rifle short of a “double-clutch” on the first round, an ejected round (or empty case) would pretty much be conclusive that the hammer was down on the ejected round.

 

But I used to have a Rossi model 92 that would periodically throw our the first cartridge and somehow feed the second.  It stopped doing that after I shimmed the right feed rail.

 

And with a Lightning rifle, there doesn’t seem to be a limit to what it will do.  I finally got my Taurus running so it feeds properly and doesn’t throw out the first round.  It took a lot more doing than you want to read here though.

 

My point in all this is that to call a penalty on a shooter, the RO needs to have more than just cursory evidence because there may be other explanations.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

Apologies to Hoss, Purdy Boy and Palmetto Travler.  I was typing (slowly) while they posted

[J.D. Daily]

To have the hammer down on an empty or live round in a Lightning rifle when leaving the loading table is difficult to do by accident.  The action has to be open to insert cartridges into the magazine.  To have an empty under the hammer either the case is stuck, the rim damaged or the extractor broken.  The stuck case or broken extractor should be caught at the unloading table.  To have a live round in the chamber the shooter has to either load a round in the chamber through the top or close the bolt then cycle the action to load a round from the magazine into the chamber.  Just in case the impossible happens I always after closing the bolt at the loading table lower the hammer with my thumb.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

When a condition that is THOUGHT to have been caused by a loading error but COULD easily have been caused by short stroking either a revolver or a rifle, I believe the correct call is "benefit of the doubt to the shooter" in most cases, because there really is NO PROOF in most cases that the gun was loaded improperly and came to the line with a round under the hammer. 

 

Now, if you suspect it, and carefully inspect for it after the shooter comes to the line and before they start shooting, and you find it, by all means call it.   You probably won't be doing that very often as a RO. 

 

I find a quiet word with the shooter about - you had better load properly, or we WILL be inspecting for coming to the line "hot" - usually does the trick.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

PS - 

After all - the shooter is NOT doing this to improve their score.  It is a self-limiting error as far as scoring goes.  If they are coming to line with chamber filled, they have a firearms/ammo problem, or have not been properly taught, or they got VERY careless.    These are indications they need some assistance.  Not some punishment.  GJ

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

4 hours ago, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

 

Still another possibility with  Colt type action is a poorly timed action where the cylinder over-rotates to the point that it falls between the number 1 and number two rounds.

My point in all this is that to call a penalty on a shooter, the RO needs to have more than just cursory evidence because there may be other explanations.

I have had this happen to me.  And yes, it was a big surprise when it happened.  Got the revolver tuned up and it never happened again.

[Cowboy Junky]

13 hours ago, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

Apologies to Hoss, Purdy Boy and Palmetto Travler.  I was typing (slowly) while they posted

Lol......happens too me all the time. Heck some times by the time I type in my .02 several people have replied and that's if I don't have to check my spelling! 

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

I used to shoot Schofield revolvers and they were sensitive to high primers. If I had a high primer on the first round I would get the click, and five bangs. Got called for having a live round under the hammer because of this once.

 

SR

[Clueless Bob]

My wife, Smokin Limey, did it a few times(pistols) during her first year of shooting CAS.  In her defense, we picked a pair of EAA Bounty Hunters that had "recessed"(for lack of a better term) cylinders.  The load one, skip one, load four phrase works, but checking for high primers and then reindexing makes it easy to miss the empty cylinder.  A year later, a move with a very nice moving bonus, Limey got a pair of Ruger's that she truly loves and has never had a problem since.

 

A while back, I noticed factory markings on the cylinder that framed a chamber and is visible over the top strap.  When ever I pull them out to shoot and there is a loading officer present, I show the chamber, markings before I load the cylinder.  Again, prior to closing the loading gate showing that the empty chamber and markings are still empty.  I then spin the cylinder and align the markings where they straddle the top strap and show the officer.  

[McCandless]

On 5/6/2018 at 7:27 PM, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

If either a Ruger or Colt type action, the cylinder must be locked after loading (by turning to make sure the bolt is locked in the notch.). If the cylinder is not locked, the gun can look like the hammer is down on an empty chamber (and in fact is) but when the hammer is cocked the cylinder does not turn to bring the next round into battery.  

 

Another possibility is that the shooter “short-stroked” the gun.  

 

Still another possibility with  Colt type action is a poorly timed action where the cylinder over-rotates to the point that it falls between the number 1 and number two rounds.

 

Just because the first hammer fall did not result in a fired round, followed by five shots is not enough to say conclusively that the shooter had the hammer down on a live round.  It does call for making sure that the loading officer is aware of the proper loading techniques for the types of revolvers that we use.

 

In a ‘73 rifle short of a “double-clutch” on the first round, an ejected round (or empty case) would pretty much be conclusive that the hammer was down on the ejected round.

 

But I used to have a Rossi model 92 that would periodically throw our the first cartridge and somehow feed the second.  It stopped doing that after I shimmed the right feed rail.

 

And with a Lightning rifle, there doesn’t seem to be a limit to what it will do.  I finally got my Taurus running so it feeds properly and doesn’t throw out the first round.  It took a lot more doing than you want to read here though.

 

My point in all this is that to call a penalty on a shooter, the RO needs to have more than just cursory evidence because there may be other explanations.

 

Thank you.  I discussed this with my RO Instructor/TG yesterday and he said much the same thing.  You have to watch the gun, and know what type of gun you're looking at.  If it's a 66/73, the shooter levers smooth and does not double clutch, then there was more'n likely a live round chambered.  But, a '94 or a '92, can throw out a round with too strong magazine springs or other circumstances, like Scarlett experienced.  

I did R.O. a new shooter yesterday that came to the line, pulled his Ruger, slowly pulled back the hammer and fired, "click" followed by 5 bangs.  Was his cylinder not locked?  Did the web of his hand impede the hammer, resulting in a short stroke?  I could not definitively say.  So, no call.  I did discuss it with him afterwards and we ran over loading procedure.  I've also seen shooters hold the gun too high on the grip frame, and be unable to get off a shot because of their thumb web being in the way.  

I enjoyed the day R.O.ing, as every time gives me another insight into another WTC to figure out in my head.

 

Thank you for all your answers,

~Duc!