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Chief Rick

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Only a P for shooting out of category with two loaded firearms in hand. 

 

No rule about one long gun and one pistol loaded in hands, only two revolvers for a non-gunfighter is a penalty.   (Don't be making up rules!)

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It will ask if all the targets that were hit were hit in the correct order. 

 

Yes, all pistol targets were hit in correct order.  It's just the shooter "picked up the shotgun and loaded it earlier then usual", but kept it safe while doing so.

 

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Just now, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Yes, all pistol targets were hit in correct order.  It's just the shooter "picked up the shotgun and loaded it earlier then usual", but kept it safe while doing so.

 

I agree with you on this but was told by PaleWolf that you can’t do it. 

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3 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Can you show me the rule you are referring to? 

Please see my previous post quoting the rule. The way I interpret that is the shooter quit before the string was complete and made no attempt to reengage. To me, that's the same as "failure to attempt to fire firearm."

 

My interpretation, which is not necessarily correct. :)

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was told by PaleWolf that you can’t do it. 

 

 

Let's see the rule......

:lol:

How do we call this rule if we haven't EVER seen it?  Oh, we have to belong to a secret rule club, right?  And we have to see the rule AND the penalty for what appears to have been safe gun handling, at least for this shooter in this scenario.

 

Good luck, GJ

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You know, for most situations like this where there is no written rule, and the shooter didn't break any of the written rules, BENEFIT OF DOUBT GOES TO THE SHOOTER. 

 

Good luck, GJ

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The shotgun is closed, that means the shotgun has the hammers cocked over live rounds. Too late to shoot last pistol, once the shotgun is closed shooter is committed. He's past the point of rescue, just like levering a rifle or cocking a pistol. I may be mistaken, wouldn't be the first time.

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12 minutes ago, Assassin said:

The shotgun is closed, that means the shotgun has the hammers cocked over live rounds. Too late to shoot last pistol, once the shotgun is closed shooter is committed. He's past the point of rescue, just like levering a rifle or cocking a pistol. I may be mistaken, wouldn't be the first time.

The shooter wasn't committed upon loading the shotgun. The only way to avoid penalty would have been, unload the shotgun, safely restage it, move to the doorway and shoot the last pistol round. Then proceed with the stage.

 

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So you want to call that Unsafe Gun Handling and give a SDQ for it?    Because that is about all that the current rules would let you do.

 

Our current written rules do not say it is "too late to shoot the last pistol shot" until next gun is FIRED. 

 

The requirements we have for safe gun handling (just the holding of one) talk about the 170 rule, and sweeping someone.   The rest of the safety rules involve a discharge of a gun too close to a prop, or when one is no longer holding the gun.   I don't necessarily LIKE him having a loaded cocked shotgun in hand, but I find no rule nor safe gun handling principles in anything that we or the NRA publish which say it's a mortal sin.

 

Good luck, GJ

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10 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

You know, for most situations like this where there is no written rule, and the shooter didn't break any of the written rules, BENEFIT OF DOUBT GOES TO THE SHOOTER. 

 

Good luck, GJ

Here you go. It’s not my sand box. I just play in it. 

 

FCB790AB-29CF-47FD-B7E5-C462A83FD060.png

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Not the same problem.   That scenario you cited involves a switch of gun types that has already been made.   This one we are discussing, shooter has until the shotgun IS FIRED for the pistol condition to no longer be "correctable".   Moving to new position, picking up shotgun, loading it, even closing it, all can be "undone".  Seems like shooter would still be on pistol string if he did all that.  Therefore, shooter has not "exited" the pistol string until the NEXT gun (the shotgun) has fired it's first shot!  See PWB's BIG BOLD LETTERS that say "FIRING"  - should give you the confirmation that the string ends only when NEXT GUN is fired.

 

Good luck, GJ

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15 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Not the same problem.   That scenario you cited involves a switch of gun types that has already been made.   This one we are discussing, shooter has until the shotgun IS FIRED for the pistol condition to no longer be "correctable".   Moving to new position, picking up shotgun, loading it, even closing it, all can be "undone".  Seems like shooter would still be on pistol string if he did all that.  Therefore, shooter has not "exited" the pistol string until the NEXT gun (the shotgun) has fired it's first shot!  See PWB's BIG BOLD LETTERS that say "FIRING"  - should give you the confirmation that the string ends only when NEXT GUN is fired.

 

Good luck, GJ

So you feel that if the order is shotgun then pistol, the shotgun would have to be cleared of any rounds before firing the pistol to aboid a minor safety, but not if it’s the other way around? I can’t see that. 

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It's a P for shooting pistol out of position.  To keep his clean match, he would have needed to open the SG, go back to the previous spot and fire the pistol.  Putting the SG down was not neeed as long as it was "safe for movement" (see below), but if he did set it down, he would have needed to unload it first. 

 

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:
- Empty.
A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the
following condition only:
- Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.
- Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action
closed.
 

 

Correct smokestack, not the other way around.  The SG must be empty to be safe for leaving the shooter's hand.  The pistol only needs the hammer down on an empty chamber or fired round (see below).   The rules for when you can move with and discard those guns are different.  

 

Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving
through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.
- Hammer fully down on an expended round. A revolver may not be originally
staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition.
 

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4 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Rifle targets engaged correctly.

Pistol targets engaged correctly but shooter doesn't fire last round on dump target (hammer IS DOWN on fired round).

Shooter holsters pistol and moves to shotgun, picks up shotgun, loads two rounds and closes shotgun as TO is telling him he still has one unfired round in pistol.

Shooter holds shotgun (closed with two rounds) in left hand, pulls pistol and shoots & hits pistol stationary target from wrong position.

 

What's the call?

"P" for firing the pistol from the wrong position.

 I believe SDQ for having two loaded guns in hand.

No such rule...there is an "out of category" progressive penalty for NON-GF/BW shooters having two loaded REVOLVERS "in hand" 

Could shooter have simply opened shotgun and layed it down, then moved back to appropriate position to fire pistol?

NO

Or would the live rounds need to be shucked to prevent a penalty?

YES

Probably would have been faster to just incur one miss from unfired round and continue, but...MAYBE

 

The referenced thread with the ROC clarification dealt with a shooter holding an UNCLEARED long gun (after the SG shooting string) while firing the NEXT firearm of the stage (revolver).

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2 hours ago, Smokestack said:

So you feel that if the order is shotgun then pistol, the shotgun would have to be cleared of any rounds before firing the pistol to aboid a minor safety, but not if it’s the other way around? I can’t see that. 

 

As GJ noted, until the next firearm is actually FIRED, the revolver string hasn't ended...same as if a shooter picked up the loaded rifle with a round remaining to complete the revolver string. 

No penalty for drawing the revolver to finish the string with a loaded long gun in hand...unless the 10th revolver shot is from the wrong location (as in the OP).

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5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

As GJ noted, until the next firearm is actually FIRED, the revolver string hasn't ended...same as if a shooter picked up the loaded rifle with a round remaining to complete the revolver string. 

No penalty for drawing the revolver to finish the string with a loaded long gun in hand...unless the 10th revolver shot is from the wrong location (as in the OP).

So it’s unsafe to hold an open shotgun with two fired hulls in it while firing a pistol, but no issue with holding a closed cocked shotgun with live rounds under the hammer while firing the pistol? Sounds about right...thanks. 

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Just so everyone knows, the penalty assessed to the shooter was a P.

 

Looking into the rule books after the match I couldn't find anything in the current rule books to support anything else, but I wanted to post the question to make sure.

 

Thanks.

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An important less for the RO is when to keep quiet.  We know it was not intentional but so often, it is better to just let them go as long as it is still safe.

 

I just shot a stage where I forgot to shoot the 10 round from my rifle.  Bummer, too, since I was shooting and moving quickly.  So I set the rifle down, open but a round on the chamber, then quickly fired the next gun.  The T.O. felt badly that they didn't stop me.  But it was one of those time where I don't see that he had time.  So he hesitated and then realized it was probably too late to save me.  And I believe he was right. 

 

At the very best he may have saved me from the Minor Safety and a miss, but I would have still got a P (wrong position) and probably wasted as much or more time making up the miss.  So no time gained but likely, as an old dude, I would have risked a more serious penalty as well.

 

It sure can be hard to watch a train wreck, but sometimes it is best to merely watch rather than try to stop the train.  :D

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13 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

As GJ noted, until the next firearm is actually FIRED, the revolver string hasn't ended...same as if a shooter picked up the loaded rifle with a round remaining to complete the revolver string. 

No penalty for drawing the revolver to finish the string with a loaded long gun in hand...unless the 10th revolver shot is from the wrong location (as in the OP).

Thanks I missed this one, like Smokestack I was thinking a MSV and a P.

 

Randy

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I wish more folks knew that a unfired pistol rd is only a miss penalty (unless under hammer) , you see this a lot on WTC threads,

TO's with good intentions a lot of times cause a shooter more or bigger penalties.

 

 

AO

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On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:52 PM, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

There is no P for failure to shoot the required number of rounds, just a 5 second penalty for an unfired round.

 

Randy

+1 and why (like Smokestack said) at that point I would have just not said a word..........1 five second pistol miss would have probably been very welcome outcome for most people in that situation. 

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Not going to the second page but, it's only Two Loaded Revolvers, not two loaded firearms.

SHB 22.3 Page 7

Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers “in
hand” at the same time.

SHB 22.3 Page 6

o At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

As for the Shotgun

SHB 22.3 Page 15

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:
- Empty.
A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the
following condition only:
- Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.
- Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action
closed.

So, we know that the hammer was Not down on a live round if he had holstered after he fired the revolver.

He picked the shotgun up and loaded it, at this time, he could have opened the action of the shotgun, moved to the revolver position, with the shotgun in hand,  and fired the last round, returned to the shotgun position, closed the action and kept on with the stage.

Call on the OP would be P for firing the revolver round from the wrong position.

and that's it.

The OP stated " Shooter holds shotgun (closed with two rounds) in left hand, pulls pistol and shoots & hits pistol stationary target from wrong position" so, there was no movement with the shotgun.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/22/2018 at 7:59 AM, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

So it’s unsafe to hold an open shotgun with two fired hulls in it while firing a pistol, but no issue with holding a closed cocked shotgun with live rounds under the hammer while firing the pistol? Sounds about right...thanks. 

I'm just learning this stuff, so excuse me if I ask dumb questions.  Let's say the shooter is a duelist with a cross-draw rig.  So, if pistols are to be shot first, but the shooter loaded their shotgun first, instead of opening and shucking the shells, they can just hold it, loaded and cocked, and as long as muzzle direction is maintained, shooter can fire both revolvers, then the shotgun?  No penalty.   But, if the shotgun was first, and the shooter didn't shuck the empties but held it open and fired the pistol.   A penalty is incurred?   I'm not a critic, just want to understand the rules as I get into this sport.   I'm slowly reading my way through old posts.

 

Thanks,

CK

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15 minutes ago, Crusty Knees said:

I'm just learning this stuff, so excuse me if I ask dumb questions.  Let's say the shooter is a duelist with a cross-draw rig.  So, if pistols are to be shot first, but the shooter loaded their shotgun first, instead of opening and shucking the shells, they can just hold it, loaded and cocked, and as long as muzzle direction is maintained, shooter can fire both revolvers, then the shotgun?  No penalty.   But, if the shotgun was first, and the shooter didn't shuck the empties but held it open and fired the pistol.   A penalty is incurred?   I'm not a critic, just want to understand the rules as I get into this sport.   I'm slowly reading my way through old posts.

 

Thanks,

CK

 

YES...and YES.

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On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:59 AM, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

So it’s unsafe to hold an open shotgun with two fired hulls in it while firing a pistol, but no issue with holding a closed cocked shotgun with live rounds under the hammer while firing the pistol? Sounds about right...thanks. 

17 hours ago, Crusty Knees said:

I'm just learning this stuff, so excuse me if I ask dumb questions.  Let's say the shooter is a duelist with a cross-draw rig.  So, if pistols are to be shot first, but the shooter loaded their shotgun first, instead of opening and shucking the shells, they can just hold it, loaded and cocked, and as long as muzzle direction is maintained, shooter can fire both revolvers, then the shotgun?  No penalty.   But, if the shotgun was first, and the shooter didn't shuck the empties but held it open and fired the pistol.   A penalty is incurred?   I'm not a critic, just want to understand the rules as I get into this sport.   I'm slowly reading my way through old posts.

 

Thanks,

CK

 

17 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

YES...and YES.

Just to clarify to get it fixed in my head, which is spinning.

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On 4/22/2018 at 6:59 AM, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

So it’s unsafe to hold an open shotgun with two fired hulls in it while firing a pistol, but no issue with holding a closed cocked shotgun with live rounds under the hammer while firing the pistol? Sounds about right...thanks. 

There's something about this statement that bothers me... A LOT!  The fact that it's gone unchallenged!  Who said that holding an open shotgun with fired hull(s) in it is "unsafe"... it is a Minor Safety Violation, which is different than an unsafe action.  

Quote

Minor Safety Violations (MSV) are lesser safety infractions that do not directly endanger persons

Like exceeding the speed limit, in and of itself, is not necessarily an unsafe action, but is an infraction of a rule, subject to penalty.   As far as standing still, holding a loaded, cocked long gun... that would be like sitting at a red light with your car in gear... no violation occurs until you move!  

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