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❓ WTC staged shotgun shells NOT by shooter


Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L

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We're shooting 8 KD, 2 per window so most shooters are staging extras at the end two windows.

 

One shooter comes to line and a spotter asks if he wants a couple of shells placed by the spotter at the last stage; appeared shooter didn't have enough

 

shooter just looks at spotter--no acknowledgement of any kind

 

spotter goes on and places pair of shells on table

 

buzzer then goes off and shooter needs the last two and goes on and uses them

 

when someone mentions the spotters two shells being used my thought was NO CALL

 

thoughts from the masters

 

cheyenne

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If the shooters were allowed to stage extra rounds prior to the start of the stage, why would it matter who actually put the rounds there.  They were staged for the shooters benefit on the stage before the shooter started shooting.  I would say, No call.

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A good RO should note if the shooter has the required ammo and make sure they have what they need.  If they do not have enough, it is not uncommon for folks to loan them some.  This must be done before the stage starts though.

 

Technically, it may be a problem, so I'll await further guidance.

 

The old rule book:

Quote

The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

 

That rule definitely applies when the shooter starts the stage without enough ammo - or brings it in an illegal carry mode.

Not sure about the situation you mention, but I would tend to say since it was all while setting up for the stage, no call.

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This would be no different than a shooter getting a couple rounds for his belt from another shooter before the signal to start. It's not illegally acquired if it's there before the shooting starts. 

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A good place to start is with the Shooter's Handbook.

 

"Failure to bring enough ammo to the line to complete the stage is NOT a procedural. (scored the same as misses for any un-fired rounds). The procedural in this case would only apply to ammo (like firearms) when not correctly staged on the line (e.g. on/in a prop), and not corrected by the shooter unassisted, on the clock. A shooter MAY NOT leave the line once the stage has begun to retrieve ammo or firearms until all firearms brought to the line are verified as clear. Penalty for violation is a Stage Disqualification.

 

The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored the same as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time."

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Since when is staging ammo ANYWHERE on the firing line allowed absent specific stage instructions?

Even then, the ammo must be carried to the line in the appropriate manner by the shooter.

 

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It depends on the stage writing. If staging shells is allowed they are ok. If not mentioned you have to follow conventions and in that case it is not ok. P plus misses. 

 

PS I know people hate this but if it were a new shooter and they only could hold 6 (and it wasn't a State level or above) I would let them stage extra shells and tell them the next time it would be a P + misses so check into a different option. 

 

If they ignored my concerns prior to the stage with no reaction..........they would eat the humble pie. 

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15 hours ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

most shooters are staging extras at the end two windows.

If it is allowed for "most" it is allowed for all.

Once an action has been left unaddressed - you have three options.

You are stuck allowing it or

going backwards and penalizing everyone that performed the action or

requiring a reshoot for everyone that performed the action.

 

1 hour ago, Lead Monger said:

Just seems like the ammo should have been staged by the shooter to be legally acquired.

Staging per a shooters directive (guns, ammo, prop, etc.) has always been allowed and is not a violation of the rules. 

And even tho the OP said - no acknowledgement of ANY kind.  A nod, a wink or any non verbal permission may have been missed.

"Hey, Creeker - you know you're supposed to shoot the rifle from the RIGHT table?"  From a spotter standing at the left table where I have incorrectly staged my rifle.

"From the RIGHT table?   I don't want to hold up the posse; can you move it for me?  That's fine."

No penalty - even tho I did not physically stage the rifle.

14 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Since when is staging ammo ANYWHERE on the firing line allowed absent specific stage instructions?

Even then, the ammo must be carried to the line in the appropriate manner by the shooter.

 

This point is as I addressed above - after the action has been allowed by more than one without penalty - you have to either allow it or take actions backwards.

"Carried to the line in the appropriate manner by the shooter" is using the phrasing in a manner not consistent with the reason behind the rule - the rule is in place to avoid ammo carried in a non approved manner (mouth, ears, cleavage, hatband, etc.) or provided to the shooter after the beep.

The shooter/ spotter performed the staging and shell exchange prior to stage start and did not violate the spirit or purpose of the rule.

 

This individual shooter is a no call - UNLESS the match director decides to address all the prior instances of penalty eligible behavior.

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So,

 

if a spouse carries a firearm to the line for the Shooter and stages it, prior to the beep - is that illegal ?   Observed frequently

 

if a spouse brings shot shells to the line for the Shooter and places them in the Shooter's shotgun belt, prior to the beep  - is that illegal ?  Observed several times.

 

If the above are legal actions (prior to the beep), than anyone should be allowed to stage shot shells for the Shooter, prior to the beep - provided the stage instructions allowed such staging.

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40 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

If it is allowed for "most" it is allowed for all.

Once an action has been left unaddressed - you have three options.

You are stuck allowing it or

going backwards and penalizing everyone that performed the action or

requiring a reshoot for everyone that performed the action.

 

I agree!

 

However,

 

SHB Page 26

 

Failure to bring enough ammo to the line to complete the stage is NOT a procedural. (scored the same as misses for any un-fired rounds). The procedural in this case would only apply to ammo (like firearms) when not correctly staged on the line (e.g. on/in a prop), and not corrected by the shooter unassisted, on the clock. 

 

Staging rounds was implicitly allowed by the time this shooter hit the stage, but was having those rounds carried to the line and staged by someone else approved?

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24 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I agree!

 

However,

 

SHB Page 26

 

Failure to bring enough ammo to the line to complete the stage is NOT a procedural. (scored the same as misses for any un-fired rounds). The procedural in this case would only apply to ammo (like firearms) when not correctly staged on the line (e.g. on/in a prop), and not corrected by the shooter unassisted, on the clock. 

 

Staging rounds was implicitly allowed by the time this shooter hit the stage, but was having those rounds carried to the line and staged by someone else approved?

Rounds/ guns/ props carried to the line and/ or staged for or even corrected for the shooter has always been a no call as long as it was done prior to the beep.

Shoot - I can't count how many times, as a mentor, I have walked up behind a new/ learning shooter and either moved their guns (in the case of my daughter or wife) or suggested to a shooter to modify their gun placement on a table, windowsill, fence, etc.? 

Or physically corrected a rear edge of the trigger guard on table violation for them?

 

Or how many times I have carried long gun(s) to the line for an older or health failing shooter and staged them appropriately for them.

Or adjusted the shooter to a better position.

Or gave them direction on how to shoot the stage - where to move to - how to round count - etc, etc, etc.

 

IMO

There can be no penalty for assistance given to the shooter as long as the actions are performed prior to the beep.

And these actions do not change the actions performed on the clock from what is required of/ or allowed to any other shooter on the clock.

 

 

 

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Do the instructions have to allow staging ammo instead of carrying it?  I was under the impression that all you needed was approval by the TO.  Maybe that's just a concession they make for newbies.  When I first started, I just carried the box of SG shells to the line with a couple of rifle/pistol rounds thrown in just in case.  I asked the TO if it was OK to put them on the table before every stage.  If any of them had said no, I was prepared to stuff my pockets full of ammo but they never made me do that. 

 

I don't think that should be a penalty on a stage like this with a lot of SG targets.  As for the borrowed shells, my initial thought was P and misses since the shooter didn't place them.  But you guys made me rethink, and as long as it was done before the beep I think it's in keeping with the spirit of the rules. 

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This is why EVERYONE should be taking an RO-I course minimum every two years.

 

Read the Handbook

Page 11

Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter‘s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be safely staged as required by stage instructions.

 

Since no Stage Instructions were stated as to "staging" any ammo in the original post, the shooter must draw ammo from  on his person. 

Shooter "staging" ammo should have been awarded a procedural and misses for each round expended.

 

What "most shooters" are doing does not make it correct.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

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  I think you, (most of you), are hard assing the shooter, for any action done before the beep.  The  rules stated, as far as I'm concerned are for actions that occur AFTER the beep.   Assistance after the beep can affect the shooters time, which is in my mind what the rules are there for.  Actions before the beep have absolutely nothing to do with enhancing the shooters time.

 

  Many shooters have belts that only hold 6 shells, which makes staging shells for 8 shell scenarios difficult if they don't stage some of the shells beforehand.  Asking permission to stage shells from the TO should suffice if not noted in the stage instructions. Additionally, there should be no consequence if he has assistance in staging the shells, so long as it's all done before the beep.

 

   As noted, all kinds of assistance is OK in helping the shooter get to the line, (if a new  shooter, or an elderly shooter, or a handicapped shooter, or improper staging is detected.  What's so special about who, when, and where, staging shot shells comes into play, as long as it's done before the beep?????  Inquiring minds want to know....

    RBK

 

 

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Some folks are like puppies waiting for a treat.  Drooling all over themselves just waiting to assess penalty.  Oh .... PLEASE make a mistake so I can ruin your whole day!!

 

Whether they, the vulture, interpret the rules rather than READ them.

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24 minutes ago, Rio Brazos Kid said:

  I think you, (most of you), are hard assing the shooter, for any action done before the beep.  The  rules stated, as far as I'm concerned are for actions that occur AFTER the beep.   Assistance after the beep can affect the shooters time, which is in my mind what the rules are there for.  Actions before the beep have absolutely nothing to do with enhancing the shooters time.

 

  Many shooters have belts that only hold 6 shells, which makes staging shells for 8 shell scenarios difficult if they don't stage some of the shells beforehand.  Asking permission to stage shells from the TO should suffice if not noted in the stage instructions. Additionally, there should be no consequence if he has assistance in staging the shells, so long as it's all done before the beep.

The Timing Operator does not have the Authority to rewrite any stage to accommodate a shooter for any reason. That is the decision for the Match Director. 

There are other posses of shooters that may have or are going to shoot the stage as written.

 

   As noted, all kinds of assistance is OK in helping the shooter get to the line, (if a new  shooter, or an elderly shooter, or a handicapped shooter, or improper staging is detected.  What's so special about who, when, and where, staging shot shells comes into play, as long as it's done before the beep?????  Inquiring minds want to know....

    RBK

 

 

 

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The original post mentioned there were 8 knockdown targets.  So did the stage instructions allow staging extra rounds?

 

As far as I know, we have always allowed shooters to stage additional rounds if they cannot carry adequate rounds for the stage.  Many slides do not carry more than 6 rounds, so the shooters are allowed to stage additional rounds as required.

 

I would be very surprised if the stage instructions did not allow staging extra rounds in such as stage.

 

So we are now discussing who must carry said rounds to the stage.  Really?

 

How many times have you seen folks not have enough rounds to finish the match and had to borrow.  Would not this be a similar case here?

 

Evidently we do need some clarification on this matter to help us be consistent.

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I've been following this thread with interest - and a bit of trepidation - as a new SASS member.  My thoughts run along these lines...

 

"Is it really going to be like this, with people waiting to jump all over your case for a non-safety mistake?  That would make the sport a lot less fun in a hurry."

 

I don't believe so in the main, though I can see how this might be the case at the big meets where a lot more is perceived to be at stake. 

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7 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The Timing Operator does not have the Authority to rewrite any stage to accommodate a shooter for any reason. That is the decision for the Match Director. 

There are other posses of shooters that may have or are going to shoot the stage as written.

 

And Ace is 1 million percent correct.

 

But as the question applies to the INDIVIDUAL shooter asked about in the OP.

Until the Match Director decides how he or she is going to handle the widespread issue of "Most" shooters doing something outside expected behavior.

This specific individuals action is a no call.

 

And if the MD gave approval for staging of extra shells - the whole brouhaha over staging may be moot.

 

But as Match Director - "IF" I had not given approval for the staging of extra shells.

I would direct the offending shooters (all of them) that they can either re shoot the stage under the correct guidelines (meaning those expected on the stage and those that were in force for the other posses and shooters) OR they can accept a 10 second Procedural penalty.

 

 

 

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Creeker,

 

I agree with your assessment.   BUT, If the shooter chose to take the 'P', would you not also add a couple 'Miss' penalties based on illegal ammo used on those KD's?

 

 

..........Widder

 

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13 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Creeker,

 

I agree with your assessment.   BUT, If the shooter chose to take the 'P', would you not also add a couple 'Miss' penalties based on illegal ammo used on those KD's?

 

 

..........Widder

 

Technically, Yes.

In practice - I would likely not because as the OP stated - shooters were staging extras at both outside windows.

Without a definitive knowledge of each specific shooters usage of staged rounds - I would be unable to assign accurate penalties for use of illegally acquired rounds.

 

I think in this case (for consistent application of penalty for an {possibly} inconsistent violation of rule) - I would just throw the 10 second option at them and let them make a choice.

Might not be perfect - but neither am I

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CR:

I just looked at the written stage instructions emailed out prior to the your match. The instructions state simply, 8+  shotgun. There is no mention of staging rounds at any shooting position.

 

Therefore it is not allowed unless the first posse made written change to the stage instructions. This a monthly shoot and at TTR the first posse often corrects " in writing" typos.

 

If no written change was made then it is a procedure (the shooter must carry all rounds on his body in a proscribed manner) and two misses if the staged ammo was used. If not enough loops stuff the shells in your pocket.

 

The shells in you pocket can be feed directly into you SG or placed on the window table and then picked back up and feed into the SG.

 

Regards,

Marcus Hooker

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If I was told the stage required 8 plus shotgun shells and no mention was made of pre staging ammo I would assume I had to carry all my ammo on my person and that the KD targets must fall. If I wanted to pre stage shells I would ask the TO if it was ok before I did it. This is just normal shooting fun. No Hard Ass intended at all. 

I have also carried long guns to the line to assist a shooter but handed it to them so they could stage it themself as they prefer.

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It was determined at the beginning that shells could be staged though it was never written down.  with only 2 posses communication was easy.

 

I will tell everyone that no one complained about not winning the keys to the new cadillac because of this.  

 

the main concern was to have fun and enjoy the sport--we often have modified the stages (first posse to get to it) and let the other posses know.  

 

I can see the rules were broken about the shooter not bringing this ammo with him and he has been thrown out of the club, all his guns were melted down and he had to stand in front of the troop and have his brass buttons pulled off and his saber broken in half.

 

He now travels the old west righting the wrongs while using his broken saber as a large Bowie knife--does this once a week.

 

cheyenne

 

 

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On 9/10/2017 at 9:49 PM, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

We're shooting 8 KD, 2 per window so most shooters are staging extras at the end two windows.

 

One shooter comes to line and a spotter asks if he wants a couple of shells placed by the spotter at the last stage; appeared shooter didn't have enough

 

shooter just looks at spotter--no acknowledgement of any kind

 

spotter goes on and places pair of shells on table

 

buzzer then goes off and shooter needs the last two and goes on and uses them

 

when someone mentions the spotters two shells being used my thought was NO CALL

 

thoughts from the masters

 

cheyenne

 

On 9/11/2017 at 6:22 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Some folks are like puppies waiting for a treat.  Drooling all over themselves just waiting to assess penalty.  Oh .... PLEASE make a mistake so I can ruin your whole day!!

 

Whether they, the vulture, interpret the rules rather than READ them.

 

This post is pretty offensive.  Cheyenne posted a WTC and people responded to it.  A discussion ensues, and your view of this is that people who believe a penalty may apply are suddenly vultures drooling on themselves in the hope of applying a penalty to a shooter.  I don't think looking at something someone said or did and ascribing the worst possible motivation to it is the cowboy way, but that's just the view from my saddle, clearly yours differs.

 

I guess it didn't occur to you that no penalty is going to be applied to the shooter at this point?  Is it a possibility that people discuss these things because they genuinely want to understand what a call should be without any desire to unfairly penalize a shooter?

 

SHB Page 22

Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

 

The bolded portion is also bolded in the handbook.  In this case the shooter didn't carry the ammo to the line, it was carried and staged by someone other than the shooter.  Does that mean I would be drooling on myself to give this shooter a P?  Quite the opposite, I would have asked the shooter to take the ammo and stage it himself before I started him, thus removing any doubt about a penalty.  (Assuming stage instructions allowed for staging ammo)

 

Quite often the people who are most active in discussing WTC threads are also the most active in trying to protect their shooters from penalties.  A sound knowledge of the rules certainly helps.

 

 

On 9/12/2017 at 11:34 AM, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

It was determined at the beginning that shells could be staged though it was never written down.  with only 2 posses communication was easy.

 

I will tell everyone that no one complained about not winning the keys to the new cadillac because of this.  

 

the main concern was to have fun and enjoy the sport--we often have modified the stages (first posse to get to it) and let the other posses know.  

 

I can see the rules were broken about the shooter not bringing this ammo with him and he has been thrown out of the club, all his guns were melted down and he had to stand in front of the troop and have his brass buttons pulled off and his saber broken in half.

 

He now travels the old west righting the wrongs while using his broken saber as a large Bowie knife--does this once a week.

 

cheyenne

 

 

I just want to make sure I understand your post.  You created a WTC thread, people responded, some saying a penalty applied and others that there should be no penalty.  Your response is to mock those who think a penalty applied by exaggerating what should be done to the shooter?  

 

Perhaps in the future when you post a WTC you should include a disclaimer that anyone who disagrees with your initial assessment will be mocked?  Maybe you could explain at the beginning that you don't really want to know what the call would be, you only want people to respond who support your call.

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Whoa, Capt, no mocking at all

 

I appreciated all the input and learned (relearned) about shooter bringing ammo to line.

 

It was interesting to see the give and take and try to understand the varying views.

 

I ended the post with the reference to the tv show Branded as a way to say I was satisfied and probably time to move on to another thread.

 

I've been told my humor is an acquired taste and in no way was I belittling any of the folks that took time to offer their input.  

 

If I offended you I am heartily sorry and assure you that was never the plan.

 

cheyenne 

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