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Lone Dog, SASS #20401

So This is What We Are Reduced To

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For some reason there is a belief that our sports fast shooters, the ones that make a toggle links sing are not also accurate if and when needed. Have you really looked at some of their results? At big matches when these folks decided to enter longer range side matches like long range pistol and long range pistol caliber rifle their shooting time splits are almost as fast as their blazing fast stage times (for same number of rounds fired) at those great big close targets their detractors like to talk about. Just because someone shoots fast does not mean they are not accurate. A few years ago, one of our sports fastest shooters had been a military sniper and I believe now instructs snipers. Folks that win their categories at major matches like WR or EOT do not miss if they shoot well enough to win. If you miss, your rank point scores add up way too fast so shooting accurately is just as important as shooting fast.

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Lone Dog....look into Ruidoso, NM shoot in August! ;)

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I will reserve my right to have opinions and express them. I was not denigrating any hard workers or the way any club conducts its business, just lamenting modern trends with which I hate. Notice I did not name the match in the vids. Usually I agree with your comments and will always defend your right to express them. Except when you use my term of pitiful to describe me or any other pard. I used it to express my opinion of current trends not to disparage any one or any club.

 

 

Go! Lone Dog....+1

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For some reason there is a belief that our sports fast shooters, the ones that make a toggle links sing are not also accurate if and when needed. Have you really looked at some of their results? At big matches when these folks decided to enter longer range side matches like long range pistol and long range pistol caliber rifle their shooting time splits are almost as fast as their blazing fast stage times (for same number of rounds fired) at those great big close targets their detractors like to talk about. Just because someone shoots fast does not mean they are not accurate. A few years ago, one of our sports fastest shooters had been a military sniper and I believe now instructs snipers. Folks that win their categories at major matches like WR or EOT do not miss if they shoot well enough to win. If you miss, your rank point scores add up way too fast so shooting accurately is just as important as shooting fast.

But of course. Not at all what I am talking about. Once quite a while back we had a bonus target off the clock. It was a claybird sitting in a u shaped bracket on a stand. Our fastest shooter put a 38 hole smack dab dead center of the bird. Most of us busted the bird with any hit but this time it did not shatter. The hole could not have been drilled any more perfectly centered. I never said the fastest of us lacked any bit of accuracy. Usually they are the most accurate amongst us. But that is a different subject entirely and has NOTHING to do with the lament this thread is about.

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One of the local clubs has a category called Maverick. Shooters in that category shoot at targets which are much farther away than the rest of the shooters. Last month the club had 77 shooters, 7 of whom shot Maverick.

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I love what we shoot at the club I shoot at.Have never had just big close targets.We shoot Ls,7s.Ws,and Ms.We shoot a swinger,We shoot poppers.We have shot a Texas sweep a time or two.We shoot the texas star at 30 yards or so with rifle.We shoot saw blades at 55 yards with rifle and have shot them with pistols.If we want them closer or out farther then that the way they can be.If I did not like how it was set up I would talk to the cowboy that works his butt off and see if there could be changes made.Just my 2 cents.

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But of course. Not at all what I am talking about. Once quite a while back we had a bonus target off the clock. It was a claybird sitting in a u shaped bracket on a stand. Our fastest shooter put a 38 hole smack dab dead center of the bird. Most of us busted the bird with any hit but this time it did not shatter. The hole could not have been drilled any more perfectly centered. I never said the fastest of us lacked any bit of accuracy. Usually they are the most accurate amongst us. But that is a different subject entirely and has NOTHING to do with the lament this thread is about.

 

i (like many others here) took it, bottom line, that this was another post trashing fast shooters which typically ties target placement with speed. Same song, different singer.

 

Upon reading this last post I wondered it I misread the OP so I went back to see if I had read in error. Highlighted in blue is why I took it the way I did...

 

Was watching some videos of a recent annual match. Two huge pistol targets side by side and two huge rifle side by side. Double tap (ugh) and triple tap (double yuck) for 20 rounds Say what?? Boring as all get out. Weapon speed function check only. I would not drive across town to shoot that or spectate there.

 

Rifle targets are now way way way too close. The purpose of the rifle is the projection of power over a distance not just to see who can toggle it the fastest. I want at least 5 or even better more rifle targets of different sizes and shapes and not all in the same plane. I do not care how big and close the pistol targets are but at least have 5 different ones of different shapes and not all in the same plane.

 

It is getting to where we may as well just put up one four foot by eight foot piece of steel and see who can empty 'em the fastest. Pitiful...

 

See what I mean? You take one video and paint with a large brush that "we" all would like a 4x8 sheet.

 

The top/fast/whatever shooters that I see, know, and shoot with HATE that. They LOVE the "5 or even better more rifle targets of different sizes and shapes and not all in the same plane" as you say you like. Is it fun to rip though something like that "same plane"- sure is. Is it fun to rip through the other?- sure is.

 

Are there matches like you describe? Sure there are some. Border Town sells out in 4 days. What does tell you other than you won't go- like I don't want to go to a bulls eye match. No harm no foul.

 

Can we rationally share what we do and don't like without hideous negativity? Should be able to, but when the "ugly" starts, it seems to come from one direction....

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Lone Dog, you've tried to make this dog hunt before without success. What you see is what you get and no fault of the club or the sport in general. As has been mentioned, the customers have aged, their wants and desires have changed to what we see today. Yes, the trend you speak of continues because that is what the customer desires.

 

Best to pick your matches wisely and it sounds like you have found one more club (the video club) that you need not go to. The small local/regional clubs are your best bet and you may have to travel a bit further to enjoy them.

 

As far as improving your longer range marksmanship, you can do that more by your self.

 

 

Good luck.

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Lone Dog

I’ve followed this thread with great interest, as I always do when I see such a post. I’ve been at this a very long time at every level of play the game has. Early on the game’s play emphasized more ACCURACY combined with SPEED. The game of today has changed to put more emphasis on SPEED combined with ACCURACY. Yeah, yeah, I know, “No target is too large or too close to miss”, but it is a fact that it doesn’t take much Accuracy to hit any of today’s targets… but it does take a special talent to hit them as fast as many of today’s shooters do.

 

It took me a long time to accept this change in the game because it didn’t play to my strengths. For the most part Old Age becomes a handicap for the Speed portion of the game. Arthritis, agility, mobility, getting enough air, and all the other Maladies of Old Age make it much more difficult to complete against Youth. It isn’t any different in ANY other sport/game. THAT is why we need such emphasis on Age based categories. In fact… having givens some consideration to things, I see some benefits to the new trends in the game. Such targets allow a shooter to “Slop” a shot onto the target and move on. No doubt that this tends to put a smile on the face of many Older Shooters who are able to at least feel like they are still “In the Game”. It’s not all bad. :D

 

Snakebite

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I do this because I love the old west and all that goes with it. Guns, hats, gunsmoke, spurs, but most important people. If targets are big and close I miss them, if they are farther away I miss them :D. Only been doing this for 3 years and have not experienced the "old ways". Even so it is "a blast" whatever the scenario. People ebb and wave. Just the way it is. Cheyenne mentioned winter range and imho this was the best mix that blackjack and crew have done. I guess what I am saying is this a sport and a priviledge that may someday be taken away by people who do not get it. So whatever the stage or scenario is I am going to have fun with it and the people and laugh at myself because everyone else is.

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One way to evaluate a range setup might be the percentage of Clean Matches. Each shooter should have a chance of a Clean Match, but if every shooter has a Clean Match the setup may be too easy, and if no one has a clean match the setup is probably too hard.

What is the Clean Match percentage of the various matches? What percentage would be about right? As the match level increases from club, to annual, to state, to WR, to EOT, does the percentage change?

A purpose of the CAS matches is to have fun, and a morning spent with others who enjoy shooting make everyone a "winner" regardless of their standing at the end of a match. But someone will always "win" a match.

 

But the question of whether a stage target setup is too easy or too hard is subjective, but I personally enjoy hearing the "CLANG" after the "BANG".

 

B Slim

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I don't agree with the "Clean Match" percentage idea. If there were a lot of misses, then it may have been too difficult, but if folks only had one or two misses it doesn't mean that the match was too hard. Our Annual Match had Zero Clean shooters... it RARELY has any Clean Shooters, yet the match in general is not difficult, and everyone loves it and comes back year after year. Our Ore Cart eats everyone's Lunch. It is hard to shoot the 4' by 4' targets while bouncing down the rail in the Ore Cart. Anyone can do it if they want... all they have to do is wait for the Cart to stop, and then shoot the targets which by this time, are right in their face..... but, NOBODY has ever chosen to do that.. they choose to Play the Game, and in doing so... they usually sacrifice their Clean Match. I heard a lot of Crying about the number of Clean Matches at WR.... it was a GREAT match and was certainly not too difficult. Folks usually miss targets because they are going too fast. Learning to judge things is part of the game.

 

Snakebite

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Lone Dog, you've tried to make this dog hunt before without success. What you see is what you get and no fault of the club or the sport in general. As has been mentioned, the customers have aged, their wants and desires have changed to what we see today. Yes, the trend you speak of continues because that is what the customer desires.

 

Best to pick your matches wisely and it sounds like you have found one more club (the video club) that you need not go to. The small local/regional clubs are your best bet and you may have to travel a bit further to enjoy them.

 

As far as improving your longer range marksmanship, you can do that more by your self.

 

 

Good luck.

 

 

Ha ha. I sure do not need to work on my long range levergun skills. After I survived the Nam I went to Germany where I shot my way to the top of the active Army rifle teams the AMU. We were shooting 8 inch bulls at 500 and 600 meters plus with the iron sights on our NM M14s. The rifle is my stongest of our three guns. My main match rifle is as good as money can buy and if I do my part it never misses. It could be run faster but not by me. I am old and eat up with many maladies. What I am advocating, the moving back of the rifle targets, would actually bring my scores down. But it needs to be done. We all know it. Just some here and the loudest nay-sayers just won't admit it.

 

I doan unnerstand why folks keep veering off on irrelevant tangents on this my little thread here. I love each and every one of you. So quit dogging my cats. I am gonna keep at this game until I can no longer shuffle from the LT to the ULT. No matter what it becomes. I speak only for myowndangself but I feel I am articulating what many of us feel. Others do not speak out or speak up because they know they will be viciously eviscerated by the usual suspects here. I just do not care what anyone who cannot cut me off or fire me thinks of me. The game was way mo bettah 20 year ago and that is just the plain truth. I still have a ton of fun but this 3 and 2 on 2 targets and too close rifle targets is nonsense.

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Ha ha. I sure do not need to work on my long range levergun skills. After I survived the Nam I went to Germany where I shot my way to the top of the active Army rifle teams the AMU. We were shooting 8 inch bulls at 500 and 600 meters plus with the iron sights on our NM M14s. The rifle is my stongest of our three guns. My main match rifle is as good as money can buy and if I do my part it never misses. It could be run faster but not by me. I am old and eat up with many maladies. What I am advocating, the moving back of the rifle targets, would actually bring my scores down. But it needs to be done. We all know it. Just some here and the loudest nay-sayers just won't admit it.

 

I doan unnerstand why folks keep veering off on irrelevant tangents on this my little thread here. I love each and every one of you. So quit dogging my cats. I am gonna keep at this game until I can no longer shuffle from the LT to the ULT. No matter what it becomes. I speak only for myowndangself but I feel I am articulating what many of us feel. Others do not speak out or speak up because they know they will be viciously eviscerated by the usual suspects here. I just do not care what anyone who cannot cut me off or fire me thinks of me. The game was way mo bettah 20 year ago and that is just the plain truth. I still have a ton of fun but this 3 and 2 on 2 targets and too close rifle targets is nonsense.

 

Lone Dog, I think you are singing to the choir! Many of us understand what you are saying and agree with you but like you said, most just won't chime in because they don't want to be belittled for voicing their opinions by the select few self ordained know it alls running around. Last discussion I got involved in was the size of the Winter range targets and was blasted for not having enough experience to voice an opinion. One member even tried to discredit me by asking how many matches I had organized and how many stages I had written........ as if either of those things even mattered in the topic discussion. As long as so many folks are making money selling "click faster springs, levers, gadgets and gizmos" they will ALWAYS support shooting faster at any cost and standing and delivering 20 bullets at huge close up targets is the easiest way to sell their "product" to new customers.......whether they have fun at the matches or not!

 

"Sell the PRODUCT, Grow the Business, $$$"........ I think too many try to make CAS something it wasn't originally intended to be.

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Lone Dog as I mentioned previously the target arrays you prefer are offered locally. The club that offers them is a very successful club by local standards, attracting 70-80+ shooters month after month.

 

Those shooters choose to shoot faster stage designs by a huge margin.

 

In April 70 shot the standard match, 7 shot the long distance.

 

In March 73 shooters shot the standard match, 3 shot long distance.

 

Sounds like Match Directors are offering shooters what the shooter's want, faster stages.

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Lone Dog, I think you are singing to the choir! Many of us understand what you are saying and agree with you but like you said, most just won't chime in because they don't want to be belittled for voicing their opinions by the select few self ordained know it alls running around. Last discussion I got involved in was the size of the Winter range targets and was blasted for not having enough experience to voice an opinion. One member even tried to discredit me by asking how many matches I had organized and how many stages I had written........ as if either of those things even mattered in the topic discussion. As long as so many folks are making money selling "click faster springs, levers, gadgets and gizmos" they will ALWAYS support shooting faster at any cost and standing and delivering 20 bullets at huge close up targets is the easiest way to sell their "product" to new customers.......whether they have fun at the matches or not!

 

"Sell the PRODUCT, Grow the Business, $$$"........ I think too many try to make CAS something it wasn't originally intended to be.

 

 

+1

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...I doan unnerstand why folks keep veering off on irrelevant tangents on this my little thread here....

Same reason why spouse "discussions" veer off course. The spouse that is on the losing end doesn't want to admit it so they attemp to steer the discussion off on a tangent. To confuse the issue and disrupt the thoughts of the other Spouce.

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I like a variety, i like the big close targets as well as far, just make it interesting.... if they are all close its not fun shooting every stage like that.... then they all feel the same. I like to see fast stages as well as slow.

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Perhaps where you are that one stage is representative. If so, I would agree that I would want a lot more variety!

 

But as others have mentioned, your current argument is based on one stage seen on a video. What were the other stages?

 

One in a while clubs like to set up a pure speed stage as you describe. They do it for fun and to watch each other throw out rounds, miss a lot more than they expect and have a good laugh.

 

It appears that Snakebite may have hit the nail on the head - you are disappointed that the game is not playing to your strength.

 

As I have aged, it is hard for me to see that I've slipped, but that is life. And I still enjoy the sport, the challenges and the many friends.

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Match directors and stage writers have a tough job. No matter what they do or how hard they work to put on an enjoyable match there are always ten percent who won't like it. Every MD would like 100% favorable comments on their efforts but that is never going to happen and MDs have to put on matches that the remaining 90% enjoy. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. Everything from the old days seems better. But when I look back at matches from 20+ years ago things that were done back then are things a lot of our shooters simply cannot physically do today. Twenty year old memories are great and give us all the warm and fuzzies. But bodies that are an actual 20 years older not so much.

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The numbers do not lie as the other shooting sports continue to grow SASS continues to decline look at the core As SASS pursued the young shooters and grew target size and shortened distances membership declined. Looks like the model has a flaw,

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Lone Dog,

 

What is your solution to:

Most people have converted to those huge brass front sights on both revolvers & rifles because they can not see standard front sights anymore and thus

A) if you move rifle targets further back,you will have to increase the size because the huge front sight will cover up present 24x24 sized targets, LOL. Might have to go to 36x36 or 48x48 size, which weights more,will take three to lift and will need a skid steer to move target stand.

 

Ya need to study the consequences of your action to see if you are making it worse rather than better. LOL

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The biggest reason that SASS is not as big as it was in the past is due to ONE MAJOR FACTOR... and that is the FACT that the VAST MAJORITY of the membership is aging. Cowboys are, and will always be an icon of the older generation. The younger generation have little or no connection with the Cowboy revolution of the past and they never will. Cowboy Action Shooting is NOT going to attract any measurable number of young people into the game by virtue of the Cowboy appeal alone. It is going to take some other venue to accomplish that task, and it MUST be done without radically changing the game as we know it or we risk loosing what we now have. I don't know what that avenue might be, Steam-punk, or something that appeals to the younger crowd without moving out the Cowboys. It was/is NOT the Close and Large targets that is causing a decline in participation. SASS must figure out how to cater to the Oldsters while putting forth some attractant to get younger folks to come into the game. Not an easy task, but the sooner it happens, the better.

 

Snakebite

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The numbers do not lie as the other shooting sports continue to grow SASS continues to decline look at the core As SASS pursued the young shooters and grew target size and shortened distances membership declined. Looks like the model has a flaw,

 

Just to clarify the logic:

Association does not always mean causation.

 

So throwing a virgin into the volcano probably didn't stop it from erupting.

 

There are many factors involved with why Cowboy Action Shooting is not growing, including $$, time, and how people were entertained as a child, etc.

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being of unsound mind I once said something about a stage. Since that time I have had the pleasure of writing every monthly and three state matches.

So iffin you ain't got the Grit to step up…………..

 

Scratch

 

So Mac, waiting for you to say something about my stages so you can take over :P

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The biggest reason that SASS is not as big as it was in the past is due to ONE MAJOR FACTOR... and that is the FACT that the VAST MAJORITY of the membership is aging. Cowboys are, and will always be an icon of the older generation. The younger generation have little or no connection with the Cowboy revolution of the past and they never will. Cowboy Action Shooting is NOT going to attract any measurable number of young people into the game by virtue of the Cowboy appeal alone. It is going to take some other venue to accomplish that task, and it MUST be done without radically changing the game as we know it or we risk loosing what we now have. I don't know what that avenue might be, Steam-punk, or something that appeals to the younger crowd without moving out the Cowboys. It was/is NOT the Close and Large targets that is causing a decline in participation. SASS must figure out how to cater to the Oldsters while putting forth some attractant to get younger folks to come into the game. Not an easy task, but the sooner it happens, the better.

 

Snakebite

Zombie is just one attraction to the younger crowd. Yuck

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So here I am in the land of Bordertown (those large, closer than close targets) and we go down to one of the monthly matches yesterday. The rifle targets are at the back of the bay and spaced out!!! I need my optics. Did I load up and take off?? Nope. Lots of joking about the distances but everyone enjoyed the shoot. As long as target distances and target sizes are reasonable I have no problem shooting them.

We need a little variety in our shooting.

 

Barry Sloe

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being of unsound mind I once said something about a stage. Since that time I have had the pleasure of writing every monthly and three state matches.

So iffin you ain't got the Grit to step up…………..

 

Scratch

 

So Mac, waiting for you to say something about my stages so you can take over :P

+1 Don't complain if you ain't willing to do it better.

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Perhaps where you are that one stage is representative. If so, I would agree that I would want a lot more variety!

 

But as others have mentioned, your current argument is based on one stage seen on a video. What were the other stages?

 

One in a while clubs like to set up a pure speed stage as you describe. They do it for fun and to watch each other throw out rounds, miss a lot more than they expect and have a good laugh.

 

It appears that Snakebite may have hit the nail on the head - you are disappointed that the game is not playing to your strength.

 

As I have aged, it is hard for me to see that I've slipped, but that is life. And I still enjoy the sport, the challenges and the many friends.

 

 

I watched two vids of this shoot and was only slightly more bored than I would have been shooting it. Both stages had only two or four giant rectangle targets set side by side. Both used the 3 and 2 and 2 and 3 on two format. Phooey. I am not disappointed that the game is not playing to my strength as you claim. As I have already explained, the rifle IS my strength so the way the game is going DOES play to my strength. I am shooting myself in the foot or I would be if I gave one whit how fast I shoot a stage or where I land in the standings. No, I ONLY care about the survival of the game and the entertainment value thereof. The modern game has zero entertainment value. Zero. NONE. No matter how many advocates of the New Way get on here and say it is the only way to grow they are all dead wrong. This is the reason we have lost so many pards who used to love our pasttime. They hate what it has developed into. It is boring and it sucks and it has NO entertainment value. They that have quit and are staying away in droves could very easily come right back, they still have the guns and leather and duds but they are not about to come back to what we have now and I sure do not blame them.

 

Match directors and stage writers have a tough job. No matter what they do or how hard they work to put on an enjoyable match there are always ten percent who won't like it. Every MD would like 100% favorable comments on their efforts but that is never going to happen and MDs have to put on matches that the remaining 90% enjoy. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. Everything from the old days seems better. But when I look back at matches from 20+ years ago things that were done back then are things a lot of our shooters simply cannot physically do today. Twenty year old memories are great and give us all the warm and fuzzies. But bodies that are an actual 20 years older not so much.

 

I am 20 years older but I do believe I can still carry an egg on a spoon, dig the sg shells out of the clothespin bag, feed the chickens between guns, ride my fat ass on the ore cart etc etc etc. And I can damn sure still shoot a rifle farther than 5 to 7 yards. Physical infirmities of the participants can in NO way be used to excuse the dumbing down and boringness of today's game. That dog just won't hunt. Next shooter...

 

The numbers do not lie as the other shooting sports continue to grow SASS continues to decline look at the core As SASS pursued the young shooters and grew target size and shortened distances membership declined. Looks like the model has a flaw,

Bingo

 

Lone Dog,

 

What is your solution to:

Most people have converted to those huge brass front sights on both revolvers & rifles because they can not see standard front sights anymore and thus

A) if you move rifle targets further back,you will have to increase the size because the huge front sight will cover up present 24x24 sized targets, LOL. Might have to go to 36x36 or 48x48 size, which weights more,will take three to lift and will need a skid steer to move target stand.

 

Ya need to study the consequences of your action to see if you are making it worse rather than better. LOL

 

I do believe we can move the rifle targets back to 10 to 15 yards with no change in equipment. The few occasional rifle targets at 20 yards should be no problem for anyone with any business tripping a trigger. Nay, I daresay it would be refreshing.

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If I could just find a gif of someone beating a dead horse.....

 

Oh wait!

 

giphy.gif

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I am not going to lie, I would like to see rifle shots be what they were supposed to be BUT...I have a simple observation to make:

 

It has been my experience that the folks running the match are more open to suggestion when both they and you are sweating your butts off together while setting up the match.

 

All politics is local.

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Lone Dog

I’ve followed this thread with great interest, as I always do when I see such a post. I’ve been at this a very long time at every level of play the game has. Early on the game’s play emphasized more ACCURACY combined with SPEED. The game of today has changed to put more emphasis on SPEED combined with ACCURACY. Yeah, yeah, I know, “No target is too large or too close to miss”, but it is a fact that it doesn’t take much Accuracy to hit any of today’s targets… but it does take a special talent to hit them as fast as many of today’s shooters do.

 

It took me a long time to accept this change in the game because it didn’t play to my strengths. For the most part Old Age becomes a handicap for the Speed portion of the game. Arthritis, agility, mobility, getting enough air, and all the other Maladies of Old Age make it much more difficult to complete against Youth. It isn’t any different in ANY other sport/game. THAT is why we need such emphasis on Age based categories. In fact… having givens some consideration to things, I see some benefits to the new trends in the game. Such targets allow a shooter to “Slop” a shot onto the target and move on. No doubt that this tends to put a smile on the face of many Older Shooters who are able to at least feel like they are still “In the Game”. It’s not all bad. :D

 

Snakebite

 

There ya go. ;)

 

Match directors and stage writers have a tough job. No matter what they do or how hard they work to put on an enjoyable match there are always ten percent who won't like it. Every MD would like 100% favorable comments on their efforts but that is never going to happen and MDs have to put on matches that the remaining 90% enjoy. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing. Everything from the old days seems better. But when I look back at matches from 20+ years ago things that were done back then are things a lot of our shooters simply cannot physically do today. Twenty year old memories are great and give us all the warm and fuzzies. But bodies that are an actual 20 years older not so much.

 

Very well put Larsen. I laugh at myself when watching an old western (and all the hardships involved) thinking, 'boy I wish is was there'.... while sitting in my chair, in my a/c, while my knee hurts. :lol:

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I agree that rifle targets should be 10-20 yds, with one occasionally closer or farther.

 

Lone Dog, maybe you are shooting at the wrong clubs...

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