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What's the call?


Captain Bill Burt

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10-10-4+

 

Stage instructions call for shooting shotgun from behind a horse, then taking at least one step to the left before engaging pistol targets. Shooter finishes shotgun, draws and cocks pistol, TO almost simultaneously says 'move' shooters steps to his left with pistol (cocked) Scorekeeper says 'stop' Shooter stops, decocks and holsters pistol hammer down on a live round.

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2 SDQ's = MDQ

 

RO 1 Pg 26

Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

Changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a firearm with the hammer down on a live round. Changing location with a long gun with action closed and hammer cocked.

 

 

On 2nd thought

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2 SDQ's = MDQ

 

RO 1 p. 26

 

 

Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

Changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a firearm with the hammer down on a live round. Changing location with a long gun with action closed and hammer cocked.

 

On 2nd thought

 

 

^^^^^

THIS (amended)

 

Shooter committed multiple separate SDQ violations

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Trippple OUCH.

 

1. moved with cocked revolver

2. decocks without TO approval (or so it appears from the OT)

3. Holsters pistol with live round under hammer

 

 

..........Widder

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SDQx2=MDQ

ROI Page 22, Note 3

3. Major safety infractions will result in the shooter’s Disqualification from the Stage or Match. ―Major‖ infractions include: a dropped firearm, a discharge that is unsafe or a discharge that impacts less than ten feet from the shooter, violation of the 170 safety rule, ―sweeping‖ any person with the muzzle of a firearm, and similar acts that have high potential for personal injury. Committing two (or more) Stage DQ infractions will result in a Match DQ (even on the same stage). This does NOT apply to a single action that carries multiple penalties (e.g. breaking the 170º with an unloaded firearm AND simultaneously sweeping someone). There are circumstances where a single Major Safety violation will result in a Match Disqualification. (See Addendum for listing of penalties.)

Red is my emphasis.

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SDQ….happened to me 10 years ago at GOA! :wacko:

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SDQ

ROI Page 22, Note 3

3. Major safety infractions will result in the shooter’s Disqualification from the Stage or Match. ―Major‖ infractions include: a dropped firearm, a discharge that is unsafe or a discharge that impacts less than ten feet from the shooter, violation of the 170 safety rule, ―sweeping‖ any person with the muzzle of a firearm, and similar acts that have high potential for personal injury. Committing two (or more) Stage DQ infractions will result in a Match DQ (even on the same stage). This does NOT apply to a single action that carries multiple penalties (e.g. breaking the 170º with an unloaded firearm AND simultaneously sweeping someone). There are circumstances where a single Major Safety violation will result in a Match Disqualification. (See Addendum for listing of penalties.)

Red is my emphasis.

 

SEE AMENDED POST #4

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SDQ….happened to me 10 years ago at GOA! :wacko:

 

The rule re: multiple SDQ violations on the same stage was clarified a year or so ago.

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I respectfully contend that this was a Match DQ from the start for a far more simple reason than has been addressed.

 

From RO1 p.13:

Cease Fire! or Stop! If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator will immediately shout ―Cease Fire!‖ or ―Stop!‖. The shooter is to stop firing and moving immediately. Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO will result in a Match Disqualification.

 

He willfully failed to comply with the stop command when he kept manipulating the guns in any fashion after it had been given. Stop means cease all firing and moving immediately. His thumb and gun did a lot of unbidden movement after the command was given.

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I respectfully contend that this was a Match DQ from the start for a far more simple reason than has been addressed.

 

From RO1 p.13:

Cease Fire! or Stop! If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator will immediately shout ―Cease Fire!‖ or ―Stop!‖. The shooter is to stop firing and moving immediately. Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO will result in a Match Disqualification.

 

He willfully failed to comply with the stop command when he kept manipulating the guns in any fashion after it had been given. Stop means cease all firing and moving immediately. His thumb and gun did a lot of unbidden movement after the command was given.

making that call is being a Hard Ass,,, the shooter attempted to stop and make things safe,,, if you penalize someone for that... well it fits, and in this case the scorekeeper called out, not the TO

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I respectfully contend that this was a Match DQ from the start for a far more simple reason than has been addressed.

 

From RO1 p.13:

Cease Fire! or Stop! If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator will immediately shout ―Cease Fire!‖ or ―Stop!‖. The shooter is to stop firing and moving immediately. Willful failure to comply with a "cease fire" or "Stop" command given by, and while under the positive control of, the CRO/TO will result in a Match Disqualification.

 

He willfully failed to comply with the stop command when he kept manipulating the guns in any fashion after it had been given. Stop means cease all firing and moving immediately. His thumb and gun did a lot of unbidden movement after the command was given.

 

READ the OP...it was the SCOREKEEPER who yelled "STOP"...NOT the T/O.

​At that point, the shooter had already incurred the first SDQ for changing location with a cocked/loaded firearm.

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OK PWB, I see what you mean there with the SDQ happening first. Makes a lot of sense thanks.

 

Respectfully, I'm not trying to do anything here. I look at all of these WTC things as a mental exercise and go to the rulebook and look at it from as many angles as possible.

 

Thanks Possum Skinner. I see what you mean, I'll try to catch myself next time.

 

So it works out, SDQ, stop, SDQ and another penalty.

 

How come the WTC's don't come with the call made at the match?

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Let's see....TO "helps" the shooter not get a procedural for shooting from the wrong location.

 

This escalates, thru a series of errors, to a match DQ.

 

Maybe TO should help less and stay focused on assuring safe shooting.

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The TO felt terrible about how it turned out. To be fair he was positioned perfectly, just behind the shooter on the strong side. The shooter drew his weak side pistol first and the TOs view was obstructed by the shooters body. After some debate the decision was that the shooter had multiple SDQs all arising from the same act and all occurring within a second or two. The final call was a SDQ, based on the conclusion that all penalties resulted from the same action.

 

PS I take the fall on that because although I remembered the clarification of multiple SDQs on the same stage, it wasn't clear to me how to parse the shooters actions. I 'thought' it was probably a MDQ, but wasn't sure, so BOD to shooter. Live and learn.

 

PPS This was not intended in any way to find fault with the TO, who is a great pard and can TO for me anytime. When you run the timer frequently you will occasionally have to make decisions in a split second, and who among us hasn't occasionally made the wrong decision in that type situation?

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The TO felt terrible about how it turned out. To be fair he was positioned perfectly, just behind the shooter on the strong side. The shooter drew his weak side pistol first and the TOs view was obstructed by the shooters body. After some debate the decision was that the shooter had multiple SDQs all arising from the same act and all occurring within a second or two. The final call was a SDQ, based on the conclusion that all penalties resulted from the same action.

 

PS I take the fall on that because although I remembered the clarification of multiple SDQs on the same stage, it wasn't clear to me how to parse the shooters actions. I 'thought' it was probably a MDQ, but wasn't sure, so BOD to shooter. Live and learn.

 

PPS This was not intended in any way to find fault with the TO, who is a great pard and can TO for me anytime. When you run the timer frequently you will occasionally have to make decisions in a split second, and who among us hasn't occasionally made the wrong decision in that type situation?

Cap't Bill,

 

I probably know the TO and would never question his integrity or intent! He was just trying to help a pard get through the stage...

 

My statement was in general about TO coaching. We can all learn from this incident.

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The TO felt terrible about how it turned out.

Why? It was the shooter who drew & cocked his pistol at the wrong time/location. = "P"

 

It was the shooter who moved with cocked pistol. = "SDQ"

 

It was the shooter who decocked w/o affirmative indication from TO. = "SDQ"

 

It was the shooter who holstered a pistol w/the hammer down on a live round. = "SDQ"

 

The TO tried to salvage the shooter's stage... but it was the shooter who committed the errors. It'd have taken an uncannily quick TO to catch a shooter between the "move" instruction and recognizing a cocked revolver in the hand. Sometimes it is better to just let the shooter take their "P"... as harsh as that sounds, it's certainly easier on all concerned than handing out or receiving S/MDQs.

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So, are multiple SDQ violations on the same stage a MDQ?

 

Or where can I find the clarification from a year or so ago?

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Why would the TO tell a shooter to "move" after he drew and cocked his pistol?

 

Why would the scorekeeper yell stop, as opposed to the TO, and apparently no further instruction from the TO? Like don't decock, or don't reholster?

 

If a TO is to coach, and help a shooter through a stage, shouldn't he also coach to aviod additional penalities?

 

Case A, a new shooter doing his/her first stage at a local club monthly match. Case B, an experienced shooter at higher level of competition.

 

Rules are rules, but I don't see giving a MDQ in case A. Personally, I would have an experienced shooter take the new shooter aside, explain what happened and explain the rules, and let him/her reshoot the sage, since the whole fiasco started with the move command by the TO.

 

B Slim

 

B Slim

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Shooter is told to move he does ,he is then told to STOP which is a command given to stop all action ,and to holster and keep hands clear He did that and receives a MDQ for following commands ??This was all started by the TO and scorekeeper the TO is to move the shooter safely through the stage he did not. The scorekeeper shouted out a command that is used to instruct the shooter to stop ALL activity and to clear hands from guns Am I reading this right?

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it is the shooter's responsibility to know he can't move with cocked firearm,, even if told to do so,, at that point he should have shot from that spot before he moved... a simple P

 

scorekeeper has no dog in fight, should have kept quiet,

 

shooter moved,,, SDQ,,,, shooter then Decock without supervison, SDQ, shooter then holstered revolver with live round under the hammer, SDQ, MDQ...

 

unfortunate but shooter's responsibility,

 

in the end TO hates it that he said move,,, Scorekeeper wishes they had kept quiet, shooter learns lesson,,,,

 

I have learned to keep quiet once a shooter pulls a revolver unless I can do it quick enough or the shooter hesitates... and as the shooter to not move!!!

 

next shooter

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10-10-4+

 

Stage instructions call for shooting shotgun from behind a horse, then taking at least one step to the left before engaging pistol targets. Shooter finishes shotgun, draws and cocks pistol, TO almost simultaneously says 'move' shooters steps to his left with pistol (cocked) Scorekeeper says 'stop' Shooter stops, decocks and holsters pistol hammer down on a live round.

 

Did he move both feet?

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it is the shooter's responsibility to know he can't move with cocked firearm,, even if told to do so,, at that point he should have shot from that spot before he moved... a simple P

 

scorekeeper has no dog in fight, should have kept quiet,

 

shooter moved,,, SDQ,,,, shooter then Decock without supervison, SDQ, shooter then holstered revolver with live round under the hammer, SDQ, MDQ...

 

unfortunate but shooter's responsibility,

 

in the end TO hates it that he said move,,, Scorekeeper wishes they had kept quiet, shooter learns lesson,,,,

 

I have learned to keep quiet once a shooter pulls a revolver unless I can do it quick enough or the shooter hesitates... and as the shooter to not move!!!

 

next shooter

So you're saying even though the Scorekeeper saw the shooter commit an unsafe act he shouldn't have said anything?

 

Yes, he moved both feet Fargo.

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Shooter is told to move he does ,he is then told to STOP which is a command given to stop all action ,and to holster and keep hands clear He didn't do that and would've receivesd a MSDQ for following commands ??This was all started by the Shooter. TO and scorekeeper tried to keep him on track. the TO is to move assist the shooter safely through the stage he did not. not for lack of trying The scorekeeper shouted out a command that is used to instruct the shooter to stop ALL activity. and to clear hands from guns Am I reading this right?

Not quite. Fixed that for ya.

 

It's real easy to MMQ (Monday morning quarterback, even on a Sunday), but in the moment, sometimes things happen faster'n we can react to them. Both as shooters AND TOs. The "STOP" command doesn't automatically mean holster your gun. Certainly, it doesn't mean to decock and holster with the hammer down on a live round. Neither does "make safe".

 

I sure believe the scorekeeper, as a safety officer, should speak up when observing an unsafe act.

 

It's a very lucky TO that hasn't had things go "south" in a heartbeat!

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Not quite. Fixed that for ya.

 

It's real easy to MMQ (Monday morning quarterback, even on a Sunday), but in the moment, sometimes things happen faster'n we can react to them. Both as shooters AND TOs. The "STOP" command doesn't automatically mean holster your gun. Certainly, it doesn't mean to decock and holster with the hammer down on a live round. Neither does "make safe".

 

I sure believe the scorekeeper, as a safety officer, should speak up when observing an unsafe act.

 

It's a very lucky TO that hasn't had things go "south" in a heartbeat!

+ Infinity!

I saw this developing and was trying to get my decision making process ahead of what was happening. Initially I was trying to get myself to tell the shooter not to listen to the TO, but in the moment I couldn't decide if I should contradict the CRO, by the time I had tried to process that and already started to speak, the shooter had moved and all that came out was "Stop" cause I knew at that point the stage was over for him.

 

Griff, I felt bad because I wished I could have thought faster, I'm pretty sure the TO felt bad because he wished he had seen the cocked pistol.

 

To me this is a perfect example of why we have layered safety rules and everyone is a safety officer.

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I thought it is the shooters responsibility to follow the commands given The TO is running the stage and the shooter is TOLD to move and follows command He then hears the command STOP which is a command given and MUST be followed he does that by lowering hammer and holstering gun When he hears STOP maybe a shooter was down range? was he supposed to fire the gun ? should he have placed the gun on the table cocked facing down range at a maybe person ? The TO was not paying attention and the score keeper gave a must follow command That Must be followed.

This was a cause and effect penalty and the TO and scorekeeper caused the simple P to become a MDQ Shooter should have a reshoot. TO stopped with the flow.

 

IMHO

 

Skinny

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I thought it is the shooters responsibility to follow the commands given The TO is running the stage and the shooter is TOLD to move and follows command He then hears the command STOP which is a command given and MUST be followed he does that by lowering hammer and holstering gun When he hears STOP maybe a shooter was down range? was he supposed to fire the gun ? should he have placed the gun on the table cocked facing down range at a maybe person ? The TO was not paying attention and the score keeper gave a must follow command That Must be followed.

This was a cause and effect penalty and the TO and scorekeeper caused the simple P to become a MDQ Shooter should have a reshoot. TO stopped with the flow.

 

IMHO

 

Skinny

The TO was paying close attention, but he can't see through the shooter's body, nor can he anticipate the left pistol coming out first on a righthanded shooter.

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So you're saying even though the Scorekeeper saw the shooter commit an unsafe act he shouldn't have said anything?

 

Yes, he moved both feet Fargo.

yes,,, let the TO handle it,,, shooter doesn't need to try to decipher whose voice to listen to,,,

 

for an emergency cease fire, then yes.. this was not an emergency and only confused the shooter.. and been there, done that too.

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Hi there Allie I am new to all this and I am attempting to understand some of these rules. If TO left shooter be a P would be all that was given TO steps in and says move shooter moves .gets a SDQ and Scorekeeper yells STOP which started the ball rolling towards another SDQ which the RO1 book says that is a CRO or TO command and shooter gets another SDQ? TO and scorekeeper bear no responsibility? yet shooter is to follow commands .Sounds like follow commands get a penalty and get a penalty for not following commands. I apologize but this makes no sense the shooter was not being coached he was being giving. commands

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People make mistakes, especially in a fast-paced event.

 

The shooter is the one with the gun and has ultimate responsibility to maintain safety. The R.O and others are there to help as much as they can.

 

We have to maintain a balance of responsibility while still encouraging people to R.O., etc. So the rules state that the final responsibility is the shooter. If they are given bad advice, they are to make sure they are still safe. Sometimes it is a tough call as you have observed, but that is true in so much of life.

 

That is why some have suggested that it is better to hold your tongue while timing, etc. And if you cannot react quickly enough, even proper coaching can hinder, such as in this case. But the T.O. and spotters still have to try to help as much as they can.

 

That is why the original poster mentioned that the "official" involved felt so badly. But if we hold the "officials" to too high of level, who would do the job?

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