WTC: dropped pistol or not?

[Billy the Avenger]

Look up the definition of a dropped pistol in ro 1,,,,, sdq

Page 29

You are correct

It's a stage DQ

 

Nice job Cheyenne

 

Billy the Avenger

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I did some reading on the flight home from FL this evening!!!

 

the two billits on dropped pistols need to line up better...

[J-BAR #18287]

An acquaintance of mine (I will not identify him and it was NOT me) fumbled an empty revolver after discharging it and trapped it between his leg and the prop he was shooting over, preventing the revolver from hitting the ground or breaking the 170. He recovered the revolver from its trapped position and holstered it before proceeding.

 

He sent a PM to PWB about the proper call. PWB replied that because he still had contact with the revolver when it came to rest it was a no call.

 

So based on that previous correspondence, I think this might also be a no call for a dropped gun. Maybe a penalty though for not reholstering on the clock.

 

I wish PWB would chime in on this one too.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

An acquaintance of mine (I will not identify him and it was NOT me) fumbled an empty revolver after discharging it and trapped it between his leg and the prop he was shooting over, preventing the revolver from hitting the ground or breaking the 170. He recovered the revolver from its trapped position and holstered it before proceeding.

 

He sent a PM to PWB about the proper call. PWB replied that because he still had contact with the revolver when it came to rest it was a no call.

 

So based on that previous correspondence, I think this might also be a no call for a dropped gun. Maybe a penalty though for not reholstering on the clock.

 

I wish PWB would chime in on this one too.

the OP said he let go of it, therefore he had lost contact with it...

[J-BAR #18287]

Not judged until the gun comes to rest, and the shooter was in contact with the gun when it came to rest.

 

Rule 23, page 18, ROI:

 

 

0. "As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest—wherever that may be. "

I don't particularly like that interpretation, but it's the rule.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

you call falling still in contact????

[Oklahomabound]

...interesting scenarios:

 

1. ...regarding the revolver that the shooter "let go of" and safely landed in the boot - no call.

 

2. ...regarding the rifle that bounced to a "safe vertical position" - no call.

 

...I must be in a generous mood...

 

Okb

[Rye Miles #13621]

Howdy Rye.

 

it was presented to me as a question of which I assumed it was 'hypothetical'.

 

But in reality, I don't know.

 

The rifle incident was presented to me as a real situation that actually happened.

 

 

..........Widder

Okay so, no offense intended here, but why post a ridiculous situation that will probably never happen??? Oh wait, one time I went to put my pistol in the holster and suddenly a UFO zapped it out of my hand! WTC???

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

 

from RO1,,,

 

 

now tell me he intended for it to land in his boot and yu have an arguement....

[Rye Miles #13621]

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

 

from RO1,,,

 

 

now tell me he intended for it to land in his boot and yu have an arguement....

+1000000000000

[Coalman]

Where did you get the impression that SASS is going down hill? I see the opposite out where I am. IMHO, I doubt something like this would cause many folks to exit the game.

Well if you look at local clubs around here the attendance isn't what it was several years ago There are why more old shooters leaving then new ones taking there place

[Frio Kid, SASS #31915]

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

 

from RO1,,,

 

 

now tell me he intended for it to land in his boot and yu have an arguement....

So, if a shooter was to "drop" his pistol and then catch it with his hands before it hit the ground or break the 170 it would also be a SDQ? I would bet his happens fairly often and not called or even considered being called. Under that definition a little bobble could be considered losing control, with the gun ending up in your hand instead of your holster.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Well if you look at local clubs around here the attendance isn't what it was several years ago There are why more old shooters leaving then new ones taking there place

Doesn't mean that's the norm elsewhere.

OLG

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

So, if a shooter was to "drop" his pistol and then catch it with his hands before it hit the ground or break the 170 it would also be a SDQ? I would bet his happens fairly often and not called or even considered being called. Under that definition a little bobble could be considered losing control, with the gun ending up in your hand instead of your holster.

is that what happened in the OP, no, it fell into his boot..... just make the call!

[Blastmaster]

Every dropped pistol I've witness has been very decisive, no doubt. Complete loss of control and contact., staring at the holster...till it hit the ground.

 

Why that rule got stated is a mystery to me.

No not the dropped pistol but the other part.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Drop - verb

 

Drop - "Let or make something fall vertically"

 

Dropped - past tense of drop "allowed or made something fall vertically"

 

In the OP the unloaded pistol fell vertically and came to rest.

Hi C0ckr0ach,

 

Okay, I get that. However, we were told, in the past, that if the TO caught a dropped gun, it was a "no call." Or, if the holster belt broke and the guns stayed in the holster, it was a "no call." To me, this seems along those lines.

 

Also, I find it interesting that PWB has posted on other WTC threads; but, not this one.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Hi C0ckr0ach,

 

Okay, I get that. However, we were told, in the past, that if the TO caught a dropped gun, it was a "no call." Or, if the holster belt broke and the guns stayed in the holster, it was a "no call." To me, this seems along those lines.

 

Also, I find it interesting that PWB has posted on other WTC threads; but, not this one.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

that is because if the TO caught it, it hadn't come to rest yet,,, in this case it had!! make the call on the merits of this circumstance not on other what ifs....

 

he may not be venturing here because it's such an easy call.... just saying...

 

and I've caught guns in mid air,,, and I think that now it shud be a penalty,,, after all, not everyone can have me as their TO

[J-BAR #18287]

I don't think this is an easy call, and I suspect it is being reviewed by the ROC. So this is an important question and discussion, even though it is hypothetical.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I don't think this is an easy call, and I suspect it is being reviewed by the ROC. So this is an important question and discussion, even though it is hypothetical.

 

Howdy J-Bar.

 

I 'assumed' it was hypothetical. It may have actually happened.

 

 

..........Widder

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I don't think this is an easy call, and I suspect it is being reviewed by the ROC. So this is an important question and discussion, even though it is hypothetical.

I don't understand why this is so difficult of a question...I may be wrong...but I just don't get it.

 

Dropped gun...not a long gun...penalty earned.

 

I must be dense or something...

 

Phantom

[Griff]

I don't understand why this is so difficult of a question...I may be wrong...but I just don't get it.

 

Dropped gun...not a long gun...penalty earned.

 

I must be dense or something...

 

Phantom

Why I've stayed out of this'n. I've dropped two guns... one of my '51s stuck very nicely in the mud, almost straight up and down, just like it would have been had it been in the holster... SDQ; the SAA, I caught halfway to the knee and the only comment was: "...did you buy your lottery tickets?"

[Blackey Cole]

Hey guys the part where it says don't make a call until it comes to rest is not that it may be a no call but weather it's a msv and sdq for breaking the 170 or sweeping someone or juist a sdq for dropping it

[Singin' Sue 71615]

Okay....I'll add gas to this fire.

I say any gun that left the shooters control, IE: came out of hand unintintionally, is a 'dropped gun'... no matter where it ends up.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

English classes was long ago, but I seem to remember: If an object is falling from a person who released it, the object is dropping. The object is not dropped until it comes to rest ( when the act of dropping is completed).

[Blastmaster]

Look at item 2 & 1 below

Says nothing about where it comes to rest.

Loosing control, which means leaving one's hands would seem logical, but that isn't what SASS rules say.

Surely, we can distinguish the difference between dropping a gun 'away from' prescribed/designated/approved staging area and placement (yes, a few inches vertical away) on approperate (sp) prop after shooting sequence.

Probably where ROC came up with, if Shooter still has some sort of contact (supposed control of) with firearm as it is falling, and doesn't hit ground,,, then No Call. Seems more logical that if firearm leaves hand(s), then the process of being 'dropped' kicks in.

Probably this rule pertains more to the old vertical staging/restaging of long guns,,,, as they used to slither down a wall and shooter caught it before full contact with ground.....because of a poor gun holding prop. Haven't seen one of those vertical long gun staging props in a lonnnnnnng time.

Just a thought this morning. What I've seen, when a person looses control and gun is heading to ground, the gun makes it, no question, and the call has always been, 'dropped gun', SDQ/MDQ

v. dropped, drop·ping, drops

v.intr.

1. To fall in drops: rain dropping from an umbrella.

2. To fall from a higher to a lower place or position: The plate dropped onto the floor.

3. To become less, as in number, intensity, or volume: The temperature dropped below 0.

4. To move or descend from one height or level to another: He dropped into a crouch. The sundropped below the horizon.

5. To fall or sink into a state of exhaustion or death.

6. To pass or slip into a specified state or condition: dropped into a doze; drop out of sight.

7. Sports To fall or roll into a basket or hole. Used of a ball.

v.tr.

1. To let fall by releasing hold of: I dropped the towel onto the floor.

2. To let fall in drops: drop the medicine into the ear.

3. To cause to become less; reduce: drop the rate of production.

4. To cause to fall, as by hitting or shooting: dropped him with a left hook.

5. Sports To hurl or strike (a ball) into a basket or hole.

6. To give birth to. Used of animals.

7. To say or offer casually: drop a hint; drop a name.

8. To write at one's leisure: drop me a note.

9. To cease consideration or treatment of: dropped the matter altogether.

10. To terminate an association or a relationship with: an actor who was dropped by the talentv. dropped, drop·ping, drops

v.intr.

1. To fall in drops: rain dropping from an umbrella.

2. To fall from a higher to a lower place or position: The plate dropped onto the floor.

3. To become less, as in number, intensity, or volume: The temperature dropped below 0.

4. To move or descend from one height or level to another: He dropped into a crouch. The sun

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Well we finally got there. Having to define the word "dropped" and all the ways it can used. Seriously this thread has gone on way too long. The shooter lost control of the gun, it"dropped" to the top of his boot and stopped there. No need to apply the 170 rule, no need to discuss intent, no need to throw in what a long gun may or may not do, no need to define boot, ground, concrete, mud, water, or a worm hole!

 

The pistol was "dropped", it wasn't loaded, SDQ.

 

Ike

[Flying W Ramrod]

I'm thinking PWB will wait until page 4

[Indian Jack.]

English classes was long ago, but I seem to remember: If an object is falling from a person who released it, the object is dropping. The object is not dropped until it comes to rest ( when the act of dropping is completed).

about 70 years ago this month we dropped two large items over Hiroshima and Nagasaki...neither one of them hit the ground as they detonated 1900 feet and 1650 feet above the city... but we DROPPED them.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

If two wannabe Lawyers are walking down the street, and a miscreant approaches and asks a question ....... how many answers do you get??

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If two wannabe Lawyers are walking down the street, and a miscreant approaches and asks a question ....... how many answers do you get??

 

Atleast 2. And both would probably be wrong.....

 

 

..........Widder

[J-BAR #18287]

I'm thinking PWB will wait until page 4

I expect we will not hear anything from PWB until after an ROC meeting, And then having their conclusions approved by the Wild Bunch. We don't need the kind of confusion we had with that "open lever" situation, remember?

[Wyatt]

I'm going to stay out of this till at least page 8..............Opps!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

what is hard to understand about ;

 

a dropped gun that lands anywhere but where it was intended to go?

 

and don't say I intended it to land in my boot or the ground,,,,

 

those would buy a MSV for not reholstering at the end of the string,, and we know you weren't intending to get a MSV!!!!

 

oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! really?????

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy ShyAnnie.

 

The mere fact that this particular situation has not YET garnered a specific, decisive answer should tell all of us that 'somebody somewhere' is still looking at the wording and intent of those rules that might/might not warrant a penalty for this situation.

 

I had assumed when it was presented to me, that it was a hypothetical situation. Something is telling me that it might not be so hypothetical.

 

If the meaning of 'dropped' carries a specific 'intent' within our rules, then why wasn't the 'dropped' rifle treated with the same 'intent'?

 

I was told that the dropped rifle situation actually occurred at a big match and it was ruled as a No Call based on the intended meaning concerning 'its landing position', not the shooter losing control.

 

Its not that I have a strong feeling one way or the other. I would just like to understand how such an occurrence would warrant a penalty or a No Call.

 

Hope you are doing well.

 

Hang with us all and we will probably learn more of this in days to come.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Blastmaster]

Cheyenne Culpepper & others.

 

See post #40, which refers to RO1, pg18, item23...

 

SASS defines control of firearm as being in 'contact' with firearm.

 

Dropped was defined above.

 

"fall' means rapidly dropping in elevation, out of control..,,,, In SASS world, out of control means not being in contact with firearm... understand that.. So if pistol is continually touching person (hand, hip, arm, leg, foot, whatever, from start to end,, any part of person, it is not falling, per SASS definitions cause shooter still has control..crazy.

 

 

Now, with that thought, if shooter releases gun (no longer touching gun) a few inches above table, then he is no longer in contact with firearm, it free falls (inches),,,, then all parts (rapid decent in elevation, w/o control) are satisfied that qualifies it as a dropped gun, thus a SDQ/mdq.

 

For me, the part that states being in contact with firearm is being in control is the rub.

 

Thank goodness this is an academic debate. For some reason, ROIII has managed to do a good job on this subject.