Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Shooter finished his/her 5 shots with Pistol and goes to reholster. BUT, shooter misses holster and lets go of the pistol. The empty pistol goes straight down and lands in his/her boot. Never broke the 170 and didn't cock during entry into the boot. Then AFTER the shooting string, shooter retrieves pistol and puts it in the holster correctly. WTC? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coalman Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Id say never touched the ground No call Tell them play the lottery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I would guess a no call if it didn't break 170 or hit the ground. Even if instructions said return to leather most boots are leather. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Dropped gun....SDQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Just like any other dropped pistol, (dropped while on the firing line), that has no live ammo, and doesn't sweep anybody. SDQ. Has it happen to me. Too bad, so sad. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Dropped empty pistol. Does not have to hit the ground to be consider dropped. Shooter lost control of pistol, it fell and came to rest in the boot. It could have come to rest in a bucket, on a step, on a door frame, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I hate to be the hard one here but he dropped the gun, nowhere in the rules does it state it has to hit the ground. It says a dropped I loaded gun is a sdq a dropped loaded gun is a mdq. So my call is sdq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coalman Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Hows it dropped never hit the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 SDG. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 It left his hand when gravity in control not the shooter that's how it is a dropped gun, it doesn't matter where it stops it could have landed anywhere it just so happens it was his boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Hows it dropped never hit the groundTry looking up the definition of dropped in the RO1 Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy the Avenger Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Most shooter drop there rifle or shotgun when restating them it may be 1in or 2in off the table Billy the Avenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 It was still under the control of the shooter all along it was in the boot, never hit the ground and "retreived" by the shooter before hitting the ground. No call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Most shooter drop there rifle or shotgun when restating them it may be 1in or 2in off the table Billy the Avenger This is why the rule book is a foot thick. GEEEEEZ!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coalman Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 This is why SASS is going down hill Gun never hit the ground and was retrieved by the shooter Why call against the shooter I thought always give shooter benefit of doubt to shooter Someone will call that as unsafe but you can have a gun cart with long guns pointed right at yours and everyone else's head but that is ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Hi Folks, I'm not certain. I've read posts where it was decided if the holster and guns fall off, it is a no call if they remain holstered. If the TO catches a falling gun it is a no call. One of the rules in the ROI, p. 18 says the following. " Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Disqualification. An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance. As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest—wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all). " If the gun falls straight down and lands in the boot in virtually the same direction as it would be in the holster, couldn't it be in the "if any at all" group. I am leaning toward a "no call" based on this. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 This is why SASS is going down hill Gun never hit the ground and was retrieved by the shooter Why call against the shooter I thought always give shooter benefit of doubt to shooter Someone will call that as unsafe but you can have a gun cart with long guns pointed right at yours and everyone else's head but that is ok The act was unsafe...geeeze! The fact that it happen to land in a certain way didn't negate the actual act of dropping the gun. My gawd folks...really??? Phantom PS: I sure hope that if I'm ever on trial for something reeeeal bad...that I have some of you as my jury members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Drop - verb Drop - "Let or make something fall vertically" Dropped - past tense of drop "allowed or made something fall vertically" In the OP the unloaded pistol fell vertically and came to rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Lets say that's a SG shell that did that. What would the call be? Then tell me how a gun doesn't warrant the same definition of dropped. If someone is working on a ladder above you with a hammer and said hammer hits you in the head( hopefully to prove a point) then you catch it before it hits the ground are you going to say it wasn't dropped. If so you need more hammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Did he have contact with it all the way to the boot, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 The remaining portion of ROI Page 18 (23) As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest—wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170° safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 This is why SASS is going down hill Gun never hit the ground and was retrieved by the shooter Why call against the shooter I thought always give shooter benefit of doubt to shooter Someone will call that as unsafe but you can have a gun cart with long guns pointed right at yours and everyone else's head but that is ok Where did you get the impression that SASS is going down hill? I see the opposite out where I am. IMHO, I doubt something like this would cause many folks to exit the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 PART B: Shooter finishes the rifle string and slams it down on the table. The rifle bounces off the table and lands vertical against a fench rail. It never broke the 170. Stage instructions only state: "Make Safe" of which the rifle ended up in an approved restaging position. If the correct call can only be assessed AFTER the firearm comes to rest, what would be the correct call on this rifle incident? Please Pards: no need to be anguished over the differing opinions of others. But what rule would you use to justify your call...... or the No Call? THanks, ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Flying Ramrod also answered the question about dropping a rifle/shotgun onto the table. They come to rest on a safe position on the table they were to be returned to. And unless we redefine a table top means "ground" still no call. SDQ for dropped gun...period, no lawyers needed. The other part of this is he picked up the gun "after the shooting string" implying he finished shooting the stage. TO should have immediately stopped the shooter at the dropped pistol. And never should a shooter be allowed to retrieve any gun they dropped on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 If the stage instructions said, 're-stage the rifle on the table', the rifle falling off and not breaking the 170 would be a dropped gun or failure to follow stage instructions so at leasta P.. If it said re-stage the rifle safely you could consider the rifle re-staged...although marginally safe and the shooter got lucky. No Call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 PART B: Shooter finishes the rifle string and slams it down on the table. The rifle bounces off the table and lands vertical against a fench rail. It never broke the 170. Stage instructions only state: "Make Safe" of which the rifle ended up in an approved restaging position. If the correct call can only be assessed AFTER the firearm comes to rest, what would be the correct call on this rifle incident? Please Pards: no need to be anguished over the differing opinions of others. But what rule would you use to justify your call...... or the No Call? THanks, ..........Widder I have seen that situation ruled a no call by an authority on the rules. But I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 Howdy Smokestack. YEP. That is one of the reasons I posted the situation about pistols. I wonder WHY it is considered a NO CALL with the rifle situation (although shooter lost control) but could be considered a SDQ for the pistol. In my opinion, Allie Mo quoted the governing guideline in determining the correct call in that the call has to be assessed AFTER the firearm comes to rest. Thats just my .02 but its obviously worthy of discussion to help better understand these things. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Howdy Smokestack. YEP. That is one of the reasons I posted the situation about pistols. I wonder WHY it is considered a NO CALL with the rifle situation (although shooter lost control) but could be considered a SDQ for the pistol. In my opinion, Allie Mo quoted the governing guideline in determining the correct call in that the call has to be assessed AFTER the firearm comes to rest. Thats just my .02 but its obviously worthy of discussion to help better understand these things. ..........Widder I was told that it was because it landed In a safe position and the stage instructions said make safe. I then asked if laying flat on the ground pointed down range was a safe position, and if it had landed that way would the call be the same. I was then told that that would be a different situation. I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Flying Ramrod also answered the question about dropping a rifle/shotgun onto the table. They come to rest on a safe position on the table they were to be returned to. And unless we redefine a table top means "ground" still no call. SDQ for dropped gun...period, no lawyers needed. The other part of this is he picked up the gun "after the shooting string" implying he finished shooting the stage. TO should have immediately stopped the shooter at the dropped pistol. And never should a shooter be allowed to retrieve any gun they dropped on the ground Hi Ike, Did you forget the following? A long gun that slips and falls and does not break the 170 is only a MSV or prop failure. The following is from p.18 of the ROI. "Any unloaded gun dropped during a stage will result in Stage Disqualification. Dropped unloaded guns away from the line will be a no call. A shooter is forbidden from picking up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the penalty. A dropped loaded gun is a Match Disqualification. An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a “Prop Failure” call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance." Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Regarding the pistol dropping in the boot....at the very minimum the shooter failed to return the pistol to leather after completing the shooting string. He returned it to leather after shooting all the other guns. At the very minimum the shooter would incur the penalty for failure to return the pistol to leather after completing the shooting string for pistols and picking up the long gun. And no, a boot is not considered proper leather in which to return the pistol. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I have seen that situation ruled a no call by an authority on the rules. But I disagree. I know of one Authority on the rules, PWB is exceedingly good, but even he yields to THE Authority. aye, shoulda been a MSV. This instance falls in that "unsafe gun handling" column, i.e. a dropped gun. But, I've seen some mighty stange rulings... so I ain't taking any bets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 One in a million chance that a dropped pistol will land inside the shooter's boot! Unbelievable! Is this a hypothetical or did this really happen??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 Howdy Rye. it was presented to me as a question of which I assumed it was 'hypothetical'. But in reality, I don't know. The rifle incident was presented to me as a real situation that actually happened. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Look up the definition of a dropped pistol in ro 1,,,,, sdq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Look up the definition of a dropped pistol in ro 1,,,,, sdq Drop the same revolver, but... insteada landing in the boot, it lands in the holster... what's the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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