Chief Rick Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I found a couple of different articles - interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I found a couple of different articles - interesting reading. Rick, can you provide links? Doc's link is down for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Ok, why do I hear from folks touting the 38 Special and in same sentence vilify the 9mm. People say they'll take a snubby 38 but never a 9mm anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawhorse Kid Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 ........ folks touting the 38 Special and in same sentence vilify the 9mm......... More Powder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Rick, can you provide links? Doc's link is down for the time being. http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/ http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/7453193-How-the-FBI-reignited-the-pistol-caliber-war/ http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/articles/4851-case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-is-the-best-pistol-round#sthash.gI8p3jzC.dpbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Thanks Rick. I went ahead and posted your sources in my original post, just in case people don't come to page two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 More Powder I guess.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Don't know about any caliber It took 8rds in the back of the fleeing dude by the police officer before he collapsed (tonights news). Victum went a good distance from first hit to final resting place. If the direction of travel was toward the shooter, he would have been all over him and could have cause body harm. I am sorry for the guy and his family that got shot, and what the police did was wrong. that is not my point, but rather how ineffective pistol ammo can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 http://p2t2solutions.com/fbi-finally-decides-on-standard-service-rounds-for-its-use/ Let the discussion begin... Edit: The original source appears to be down due to a server problem. Chief Rick was good enough to track alternate sources down and post them, so I thought I would go ahead and post them here in the OP. http://looserounds.c...ining-division/ http://www.policeone...ol-caliber-war/ http://www.grandview...h.gI8p3jzC.dpbs This argument goes around and around - but there are never any definitive results. There are too many variables to resolve it as an equation or simple algorithm. Bullet catchers vary in their sensitivity, both to pain and to succeptability based on round placement. There are folks who just are "feeling no pain", and others who believe that if they are shot they will likely die. There are shooters who can put every shot on the same hole no matter what the pressure, and others who will hit everything but what's in front of them once they go into the fray. Some folks like to carry the .45 and they have confidence in this caliber, others will carry a .380 due to dress code constraints and weather conditions (it's too hot out to hide a big gun). Others trust a .38 special snub gun, shooting a 158 gr LRN bullet at 720 f/s. Some will carry a .22 or .25, and there was a time when a .32 was considered a good gun to carry. I know that I can shoot faster with a 9mm than with a .45, and I have shot tens of thousand of each, as an IPSC shooter and in various training regimens. My split times are much less, my groups are tighter (if that means anything in combat shooting), and I can practice a lot more in a day without developing negative training. I don't get tired, and I don't flinch after 300 9mm's, unlike the .45 ACP. I am not convinced there is a best gun, just a gun that I can trust to do the job. I want a gun that goes bang every time, hits where I point it, and is concealable enough to always be with me. My HI-Power and K9 both do that, whereas my 1911 doesn't. I'll keep practicing with my 9mm, in hopes of never needing it. I pray you never need to use yours either, what ever the caliber. SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I watched a news clip some years ago about a drug bust and sting operation that went south. Undercover cop was in a motel room with a camera running. Perp came in and made a move for the cop. He pulled out his .38 Special and fired several shot that went through the victim. You could see the back of his trench coat fly out as each round passed through the body of the perp. Back up finally put the guy down with several more shots while coming in the door. Not tidy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Paso Bob, SASS # 71572 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 They should go to the Military and give them Beretta 92s if they want 9mm. That have a brand new stockpile of them. That would save the tax payers a load of money. Oh wait, that makes sense, never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Don't know about any caliber It took 8rds in the back of the fleeing dude by the police officer before he collapsed (tonights news). Victum went a good distance from first hit to final resting place. If the direction of travel was toward the shooter, he would have been all over him and could have cause body harm. I am sorry for the guy and his family that got shot, and what the police did was wrong. that is not my point, but rather how ineffective pistol ammo can be. People have been exposed to the silver screen myth of pistols for decades. In truth, as you say, pistol ammo can be ineffective. A shot that shuts down the central nervous system is the only guaranteed instant stop. And those shots are very rare in a gunfight. And in fact defensive handgun training is based on shooting at center of mass not the head or spine, simply because that is the best, largest and most realistic target available. Especially under stress. All pistol ammo is deadly. It even says so right on the box. But the instantaneous one-shot-ended-the-fight-in-a-split-second is a rare thing indeed. I have seen people run after taking a .50BMG hit. Nothing is guaranteed. A well engineered pistol in the hands of a highly trained and experienced individual is the best combination that will increase the chance of survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 All pistol ammo is deadly. It even says so right on the box. Yup. John Hinckley sure did a lot of damage with a .22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yup. John Hinckley sure did a lot of damage with a .22. Yep, he also put a lot of innocent gun owners in jeopardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 There is no 'magic bullet', even one that begins with 4. Bullet construction has come a long way from the early 1900's when they did the Thompson-LaGarde tests and decided 45ACP was better than 9mm. The FBI Miami shootout was a major reason they went to the 40 even though there were plenty of agents using a 357 mag revolver that day. The original 10mm was too much, hence the 40 which the FBI adopted. Still no magic bullet. The 357 SIG was and still is hot. Almost the same ballistics as the 125gr 357 magnum load and from all appearances, works very well. Still no magic bullet. Bullet construction has come a long way from then; we knew at the time that 158RNL was pathetic. We also knew it's replacement, light and high speed 38's didn't work either even though DOJ's computerman model said they should. So much for computers. Then the ballistic gelatin shooters came at us in droves; I should know because I was one of them! My department still carries ammunition I selected over fifteen years ago based on my own testing and the data of others, most particularly Evan Marshall, a retired Detroit PD SWAT guy and homicide detective. He and Ed Sanow did a series of books back in the 80's-90's about stopping power. The data is just a relevant as it was then. I have carried 357, 38, 9mm, 40, 45, 41 mag, 44 mag, 45 LC over the years. I still carry a 38+p load and a newer backup is a 9 because the 45's are too fat for my tastes and I will be giving up my beloved 357SIG shortly for.............wait for it.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................a 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 My first issue with this article is in describing the goal to find the best defensive handgun round. Defensive shooting is a compromise of carrying a concealable (small) gun and protecting oneself from a confirmed agtagonist. I would think that the FBI would want the best offensive handgun. Everyone knows that thebFBI is armed. The level of resistance is much higher by a group of thugs not wanting to be captured or killed than an attacker who is likely to run at this sight of a gun. I would certainly not want to carry the gun used in the recent North Charleston shooting. You can see the runner being hit mutliple times before he drops and moves around for lots more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 My first issue with this article is in describing the goal to find the best defensive handgun round. Defensive shooting is a compromise of carrying a concealable (small) gun and protecting oneself from a confirmed agtagonist. I would think that the FBI would want the best offensive handgun. Everyone knows that thebFBI is armed. The level of resistance is much higher by a group of thugs not wanting to be captured or killed than an attacker who is likely to run at this sight of a gun. I would certainly not want to carry the gun used in the recent North Charleston shooting. You can see the runner being hit mutliple times before he drops and moves around for lots more time. Semantics. In law enforcement, we use the word defensive for tactics and weaponry even when the reality may sometimes be different. The goal is to defend yourself and the citizenry. I doubt anyone in law enforcement will ever use the term offensive, especially in public or court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 My first issue with this article is in describing the goal to find the best defensive handgun round. Defensive shooting is a compromise of carrying a concealable (small) gun and protecting oneself from a confirmed agtagonist. I would think that the FBI would want the best offensive handgun. Everyone knows that thebFBI is armed. The level of resistance is much higher by a group of thugs not wanting to be captured or killed than an attacker who is likely to run at this sight of a gun. I would certainly not want to carry the gun used in the recent North Charleston shooting. You can see the runner being hit mutliple times before he drops and moves around for lots more time. Semantics. In law enforcement, we use the word defensive for tactics and weaponry even when the reality may sometimes be different. The goal is to defend yourself and the citizenry. I doubt anyone in law enforcement will ever use the term offensive, especially in public or court. I'm also pretty sure the FBI has other weapon options available for when they plan to "go on the offensive." Those weapons aren't the ones they carry on their hip though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elk Creek LeMieux Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Doesn't matter who's carrying it. A pistol is a defensive tool, nothing more. Rifles and to a lesser extent, shotguns. Go in the "offensive" box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tascosa, SASS# 24838 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 The bigger the hole the faster they bleed out. I'll keep my 45ACP. I would like to have a 9 but cant afford it so Im just stuck with my Colt Commander. PS if my wife was inclined to carry I'd get her a 9. She shoots my 45's but I think a 9 would be easier for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Someone once asked me why I carry .45 (1911) off and on duty, I said it's because they don't make a .46 Well you could get a 500 S & W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoken D Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Most anything today will sure beat that 38 special loaded with a 158gr lead bullet I carried many years ago. Nothing like shooting a really fat boy with that one. Nothing would reach the vitals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Jack Hammer Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Well you could get a 500 S & W. Haha…true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Nuthing wrong with the .45 Colt round. Best not in a SSA though, for carry. But dance with what you brang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Nuthing wrong with the .45 Colt round. Best not in a SSA though, for carry. But dance with what you brang. Yup. But a Smith 25 is a bit large for small fellers like me to carry unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoken D Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Yup. But a Smith 25 is a bit large for small fellers like me to carry unfortunately. Oh My Bob, that's a real beauty ain't it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Hey Bob, if that 45 is too large for you, I'll be happy to swap you a nice 32 HE. Heck, I think the grips might even fit your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Oh My! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Oh My Bob, that's a real beauty ain't it! Yup. If only it was mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Yup. If only it was mine. Then i guess the swap ain't agonna happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Then i guess the swap ain't agonna happen? How about a cordless drill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 No need to rely on 158 gr LRN for a 38 special wheel gun. You can buy Hornady Critical Defense and Speer Gold Dot in 38 Special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I remember when Dade County (Miami) started carrying hollowpoints. To avoid a public outcry, they called em "dimpled bullets" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 You can always do what we did, 148gr, soft lead hollow based wad cutters loaded backwards. Not much for penetration but hell for expansion, with good accuracy from a Chiefs Special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoken D Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I remember when Dade County (Miami) started carrying hollowpoints. To avoid a public outcry, they called em "dimpled bullets" After 35 bullets hit that 450# guy never putting him down till someone got a head shot with those 158gr lead bullets, Kansas City, Mo went to hollowpoints. Oh what an outcry from a certain community that we were using real killer bullets. We were really lucky we got the 125gr semi jacketed hollowpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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