Shooting Bull Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Can't let a match as big as a Winter Range go by without having some WTC fun. Shooter has an AD and earns a Stage DQ. On his way to the unloading table he's flustered and sweeps the unloading table with his open and empty shotgun. Is there a call? If so, what is it? For those of you who are going to ask yes, he was being guided to the unloading table by another shooter. It happened so fast the second shooter couldn't prevent it but he immediately corrected it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Since has already been DQed for the stage, I think he has already been penalized for the stage. However, since both were stage DQ offenses, the argument could be made for a match DQ for a second stage DQ offense. That being said, I lean toward just a single stage DQ because we only do each stage once, so I think it would be double jeapardy. I will defer to those with more experience though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 That's been the question for a long time. What happens if you cause two SDQ events on the same stage. No one will answer. I believe it's two separate issues, both warranting a SDQ penalty therefore, a MDQ. But what do I know, I use code and rules for a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 There are lots of instances in the ROI manual which result in an SDQ, i.e, staging the long gun with the hammer cocked, etc. Then, if the shooter discharges a round at the unloading table, is another SDQ, which should result in an MDQ. However, the folks that say "only one SDQ per stage" would argue that once the SDQ has been awarded, safety no longer matters. I say Wrong. Safety is Safety. MDQ for 2 SDQ events, even if on the same stage, equal a MDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Good argument, Ramrod. That is why I was going back and forth. I felt the second one should be a match DQ, but I don't see anything in the manuals regarding two stage DQs on a single stage, so I am not sure. Hopefully PaleWolf can chime in so we do it correctly. I don't want to base what I do based on what I "feel" should happen, but instead, on what must happen so I am consistent with the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 This was unique enough and interested me so I ruled correctly in the future, so I just talked to my TO about this (black pin). After discussing the unique situation, match DQ. He earned the stage DQ and was stopped. The second stage DQ was a separate unique incident. MDQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I think this came up last summer with good points on both sides . I don't see how a SDQ would lift a shooters responsibility from leaving the firing line safely . My call would have to be a second SDQ = MDQ . That stinks but safety can't be disregarded because some feel the stage is over after the SDQ was earned . The shooter still needs recover and clear guns safely . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 What call was made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 While I'm digging through the archives to find any previous rulings on this issue, here are a couple more related "WtC?"s: Shooter breaks the 170º and sweeps another participant with an unloaded firearm. Each of those actions separately is an SDQ offense...even if one would normally not occur without the other. Male BW shooter takes his spurs off for lunch & forgets to put them back on for the afternoon shift. Gets a "P". Next day shooter goes to the line with his rifle hammer cocked...and it is noticed that he "forgot" to wear his spurs (again). SDQ for the hammer...and the second "spur" offense is also a SDQ (progressive non-safety penalty) Shooter loads both revolvers at the LT and doesn't have anyone (LTO or otherwise) verify that the hammers are down on empty chambers. First revolver goes "bang, click, bang, bang, bang"...shooter misses the holster with the empty revolver & drops it in the dirt. T/O suspects the second (still holstered/unused) pistol and checks it on the line. Discovers that the hammer is down on a live round. Another case of two SAFETY-related SDQs on the same stage. These oughta give y'all plenty to discuss while I'm gone shooting tomorrow. FWIW - Some of the Match/Range officials at WR (and EoT) are on the ROC (including BJZ, the MD). I'm not going to second guess any calls without hearing all sides of this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 So another question can arise:The shooter has a "safety related" SDQ on one stage and on two other stages two non safety P for shooting out of his category, so another SDQ. Do these Safety SDQ and non safety SDQ add up to an MDQ or each style of SDQ (safety and progressive non safety) didn't add up and stay in each differentcategory of progressive penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 You can only have one procedural per stage, but you can earn more than one minor safety per stage......................Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarillo Rattler Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 There are lots of instances in the ROI manual which result in an SDQ, i.e, staging the long gun with the hammer cocked, etc. Then, if the shooter discharges a round at the unloading table, is another SDQ, which should result in an MDQ. However, the folks that say "only one SDQ per stage" would argue that once the SDQ has been awarded, safety no longer matters. I say Wrong. Safety is Safety. MDQ for 2 SDQ events, even if on the same stage, equal a MDQ. Any discharge at the loading or unloading table is a MDQ. RO II, page 25, summary of MDQ. Just sayin' AR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Drover Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The first rule of our sport is Safety. Comparing a "P" to a "Safety" in this case doesn't make sense. As we all know, a "P" is non threatening (except to one's ego ). If a shooter commits two minor safety's involved in one incident, or commits two minor safety's in two separate incidents, even if on the same stage, is the shooter SAFE enough to continue shooting the match? The shooter may be just shook up, or the shooter may need a bit more training. In either case, I think it is time for the shooter to pack it in, and start keeping score for the posse. I sure would not want to be the TO that let someone be hurt after the offending shooter had TWO safety's, and I allowed the shooter to continue the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 What if a Shooter commits two MDQ infractions between the loading and unloading tables ? Does the Shoot get disqualified for the next Match at that Club ? As well as the current Match. Seems, once disqualified for a Stage that is it for the Stage. We had this discussion not long ago. Do not remember if there was an answer. If a Driver runs over a possum and kills it and another driver runs over the dead possum - did the second Driver kill the possum as well ? Once dead - that is it. So - once Disqualified - that is it. But there is a safety issue. Look forward to the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 What call was made? A www Jack come on, you don't really think I'm gonna answer that on page one, do you? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Inquiring minds want to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Seems like we need more rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just posting to get to p. 2 so we can find out what the call was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just posting to get to p. 2 so we can find out what the call was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just posting to get to p. 2 so we can find out what the call was.+1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just posting to get to p. 2 so we can find out what the call was. I'll help! But he's probably on his way home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Maybe he's lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Could be. It's more than a mile.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder Bill Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 i'll contribute...btt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 MOST OF the ROC is still tied up with winter range,,,, be patient grasshoppers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Heck, we are waitin on PHILLY for this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Btt so we can find out the real skinny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Oh fine. You people are no fun at all. There was no call. Shooter removed himself from the match. Now, back to the original question, what call SHOULD have been made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Please refer to Page 25 of your RO-I manual. Under MATCH DISQUALIFICATION Two accumulated Stage Disqualifications or Two Spirit of the Game assessments. There is no exemption for the two offenses occuring on the same stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Bud Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Please refer to Page 25 of your RO-II manual. Under MATCH DISQUALIFICATION Two accumulated Stage Disqualifications or Two Spirit of the Game assessments. There is no exemption of the two offenses occur on the same stage +1, excpt that is RO-I not RO-II As others have said. Already having a SDQ on a stage does not give one freedom to continue to be unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Could be. It's more than a mile.... Maybe he fell down, AGAIN. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Oh fine. You people are no fun at all. There was no call. Shooter removed himself from the match. Now, back to the original question, what call SHOULD have been made? Let's see, about 4 months ago, we had a very similar thread, and there were a TON of pards on the side of "once a SDQ has been awarded, the shooter is done on the stage and cannot be scored with another SDQ for a second violation at the unloading table". It was argued by a few pards at the time, that safety has to take precedence over scoring, and that the range officers have to give a second SDQ, thus match-disqualifying the shooter (two accumulated SDQs make a MDQ). Now, folks are strongly arguing the other side of this. Time to make up our minds, pards! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Notright SASS #60673 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 As stated, this was a topic of a thread not too long ago. If memory serves, the general consenses was that you can only earn 1 SDQ per stage. I tend to agree. Perhaps this should be addressed in the rule book(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Hi Folks, I infer from post 5 on the following thread that it would not be a MDQ as you cannot give two SDQs on one Stage. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=228883 Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 There's a loop hole that should be closed. I don't care if someone has been DQed I don't want them sweeping me with their gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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