Joe Boot Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Hey Folks Stage has 5 shotgun knockdowns, any order. Shooter knocks down 1, then 2. At same moment 3 falls as well. Shooter moves on to 4 and 5. Knocking both down. Took 4 shots but 5 targets fell. Shooter was given a procedural for not engaging target 3. Not sure why 3 fell -- gust of wind --BBs from shot at 2??? Is procedural the correct call? Should shooter have shot where 3 was before it fell down? Thanks Joe Boot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 1 miss - if stage directions were SG 5 rnds, you must shoot 5. No order specified - no P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Were 5 shotgun shots required? If so, then 5 shotgun must be fired to avoid the P regardless of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Depends on the stage description. If it says engage until down with no required round count.... No call If it says five targets shoot till down with a 5 + round count then I'd tell the shooter to fire another shot so there were five rounds expended. Then no call. If there was a 5+ round count and they only.shoot 4 its a penalty but not a p because it said any order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Depends on the stage instructions wording. If stage description says 5+ shotgun shells, most clubs the rules require that 5 shots be fired. This is usually how the stage would have been written, so the shooter can shoot the fifth round somewhere in the vicinity of target 3 and be done. If they did not fire five, they would be in violation of having not fired enough rounds. A miss for the shooter - round not fired. If the stage description does not mention a minimum number of shotshells, or says something like "using shotgun rounds as required", then they will usually allow you to get off with firing only 4 in this situation. Shooter gets the benefit of the doubt, as perhaps he knocked down 3rd target with his second shot. (This is usually considered a poor way to write stage instructions. Better to be clear about what you expect from the shooter.) As you posted, you don't really know if the wind blew down the target, or some shot splashed over onto target 3. And you haven't told us how the stage was written. As stated, the normal approach is to require five shots, one could be fired "where target 3 was" Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Hey Folks Stage has 5 shotgun knockdowns, any order. Shooter knocks down 1, then 2. At same moment 3 falls as well. Shooter moves on to 4 and 5. Knocking both down. Took 4 shots but 5 targets fell. Shooter was given a procedural for not engaging target 3. Not sure why 3 fell -- gust of wind --BBs from shot at 2??? Is procedural the correct call? Should shooter have shot where 3 was before it fell down? Thanks Joe Boot NO. Wrong call IF the round count said 5+ Which that is how most reads. It should have only been a miss for the unfired round. SO. How did it read????? 5+???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Doggle Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Hey Folks Stage has 5 shotgun knockdowns, any order. Shooter knocks down 1, then 2. At same moment 3 falls as well. Shooter moves on to 4 and 5. Knocking both down. Took 4 shots but 5 targets fell. Shooter was given a procedural for not engaging target 3. Not sure why 3 fell -- gust of wind --BBs from shot at 2??? Is procedural the correct call? Should shooter have shot where 3 was before it fell down? YES Thanks Joe Boot Shoot where it was, or was supposed to be. Shooter cannot be held responsible for an "Act of God" But can count his blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Disorderly Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 View it as if were a ricochet - target was hit, but so what?Shooter has to engage for it to count as a hit.So it would be a miss as it was not engaged - why isn't important (misfires/squib in a pistol are scored as a miss right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 It really doesn't get complicated until a shooter misses a target (say - target 5) Shooter then shoots target 5 and knocks it down. There are two schools of thought on that one. 1 - Shooter shot 5 times, 5 targets down, everyone is happy. 2 - Shooter must engage target 3 with a "shoot where it was" for it to count, thus expending a 6th round. Which school do you go to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Boot Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Stage instructions read, "Engage 5 shot gun poppers any order." At the bottom of the instructions, the round count states, Revolvers 10, Rifle 9, Shotgun 5+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Stage instructions read, "Engage 5 shot gun poppers any order." At the bottom of the instructions, the round count states, Revolvers 10, Rifle 9, Shotgun 5+ For your initial question, shooter would be required by the instructions to fire at least 5 rounds. He fired 4. "Round not fired" - counted as a miss, not a P. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Joe....did Frenchy Cannuck shoot it that way....sounds like something he'd do.....dadgum gamer... :D 5 shotgun targets on a stage....match director must shoot a pump shotgun And....the way the round count was listed, 5+, it would infer that 5 rounds must be expended. Had the stage instructions said shoot till down and no round count was provided then just shooting until they are down regardless of the number of shots fired would be correct. I agree with others....correct call is 1 miss. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Yep....1miss only... Didn't fire the required (5+) rounds.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 AoH I'm in camp one five rounds fired engage in any order how would you know he miss target five and not shot where target three was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Boot Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Hi KK Glad to see you made it home safely. I can't blame Frenchy for this one. I was the one trying to get something for nothing! The consensus seems to be "1 miss" not a "P". Thanks guys Joe Boot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 On another note, Whoever wrote a 5 round count stage deserves a "P" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 What about prop failure? The sg target went down by itself, so big deal! I say no miss, no "P"…next shooter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 What about prop failure? The sg target went down by itself, so big deal! I say no miss, no "P"…next shooter! Prop failure or not. 5+ means you HAVE to fire at least 5 shots. If not. You HAVE to call it. No way around it. He needed to fire that 5th shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 What about prop failure? The sg target went down by itself, so big deal! I say no miss, no "P"…next shooter! REF: RO2 p.8 "Target Failure" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 AoH I'm in camp one five rounds fired engage in any order how would you know he miss target five and not shot where target three was Then we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Then we disagree. Then we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 1 miss - if stage directions were SG 5 rnds, you must shoot 5. No order specified - no P^^^^^ whut he sed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Why write in odd number sg? Half the folks or more run doubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Then we disagree. If two targets fall on one shot, what do you do with the other round? How close to "where it was" is close enough for you? The rule is clear, and you may disagree, but if all the shots were fired and all available targets were hit or knocked down in the correct sequence, it needs to be scored by the rules - "Clean". CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Cowboy Rick... In post #10 Joe Boot said the round count for shotgun was "5 + " (5 plus) Still say he was clean with only 4 shots fired? Rance Thinkin' ya didn't read all the posts.... Whoops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 "5+" shots requires a minimum of 5 shots fired. Any unfired shots are misses, even if the targets are down, UNLESS the stage description says otherwise. And match directors should be careful to have an even number of shotgun targets, so as not to penalize SxS shooters. Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 "5+" shots requires a minimum of 5 shots fired. Any unfired shots are misses, even if the targets are down, UNLESS the stage description says otherwise. And match directors should be careful to have an even number of shotgun targets, so as not to penalize SxS shooters. Cheers, FJT Yes, and place the paired SG targets so close together that all the SXS shooter has to do is double tap as quickly as possible w/o aiming for second SG target. Always pair the SG targets too, no splits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Have you timed a really fast double shooter on a shuck, reload, and reengaugement? Equates to a half miss each time it's done. Now try it on the average shooter. Its about a miss each time. Cheers! !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Cowboy Rick... In post #10 Joe Boot said the round count for shotgun was "5 + " (5 plus) Still say he was clean with only 4 shots fired? Rance Thinkin' ya didn't read all the posts.... Whoops... Rance, I was answering the other train of thought questioning where the 5th round should have been put. If the smoke clears after 4 rounds and all targets are down, then a 5th shot must be fired to avoid the miss. Load your gun and fire it into the air for all I care, you loaded and fired 5 rounds, 5 targets are down - clean. If you do not fire the 5th round - one miss. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Just for grins, when a shotgun target prematurely falls, I shoot where it was when it was standing, and in the correct order if there was a given order I find that to be better mental training for my mind, and helping to keep me in the smooth grove And at the end of the stage, the counters never seem to be confused as to what just happened Smooth is fast, non arguing is mentally good for the whole for the day on the range The rules say just blast down range, that is fine Watch folks, that can actually be slower for some shooters, as they lost their mental string..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Just for grins, when a shotgun target prematurely falls, I shoot where it was when it was standing, and in the correct order if there was a given order I find that to be better mental training for my mind, and helping to keep me in the smooth grove And at the end of the stage, the counters never seem to be confused as to what just happened Smooth is fast, non arguing is mentally good for the whole for the day on the range The rules say just blast down range, that is fine Watch folks, that can actually be slower for some shooters, as they lost their mental string..... And I do the same. It helps with the rhythm and flow of the stage. I've seen people screw up royally when they tried to make up time by dumping extra rounds into the dirt instead of staying on target. I have put one in the air when all targets are down and I've started to leave the SG position when I hear "fire one more!" CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 And I do the same. It helps with the rhythm and flow of the stage. I've seen people screw up royally when they tried to make up time by dumping extra rounds into the dirt instead of staying on target. I have put one in the air when all targets are down and I've started to leave the SG position when I hear "fire one more!" CR Wow, THANKYOU someone that gets it The rule does not help many shooters but oh well, they may just be there for fun Wait, so am I, yet I have the desire to perform at my best, while still having fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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