Whats the call

[Fordyce Beals]

I was the shooter and had this instruction for the shotgun:

 

4+ shotgun shoot in any order until down. 4 shotgun targets in a vertical array.

 

The counters saw this:

 

The top target is down before the shooter starts

Lower two targets shot down

3rd shot a clean miss

4th shot knocks down 3rd target

shooter moves to next position

 

The call: One miss

 

Inadmissible information on what I was thinking:

 

First two shots go as planned

Loading the 3rd and 4th shot into the gun I start the target engagement and look at the down target for the first time and not at the bead sight, as my finger pulls the trigger for a clean miss to the right of the target array. I think well I was looking at the 4th target when I pulled the trigger and there is not a shooting order so I attribute the miss to the miss I am required to make on the down 4th target as required by the RO3 manual:

 

TARGET FAILURE

In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Chief Range Officer should

instruct the shooter to “shoot where it was.” This call will never result in a penalty of any

kind to the shooter. This process has been found to be far less confusing, and thereby

safer, to the shooter than requiring an alternate target to be engaged, although it is

perfectly acceptable for the shooter to engage an alternate target and be scored for hits

and misses in the normal manner. Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target as this may cause further damage to the target, or worse, may result in dangerous ricochets.

 

I shoot the 3rd target and think 4 shots down range, 4 targets down, done.

 

What is your call, and did I think wrong?

 

Fordyce Beals

 

 

I

[McCandless]

Shotgun target down before firing = shoot where it was

Next three targets in any order... 4 shots+4 shotgun targets down = done.

No call, no miss.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

4 targets, 4 shots fired, 4 targets down. No misses, no Ps. NEXT SHOOTER

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Call is for 4+ shots, 4 shots taken, all targets down. CLEAN - no misses, no penalties.

 

Laz

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

It makes my teeth hurt that an RO and 3 spotters can get this wrong.

 

CLEAN....FCS..... 4 targets; 4 shots and all KD's are down....lucky shooter.

[Anvil Al #59168]

It makes my teeth hurt that an RO and 3 spotters can get this wrong.

 

CLEAN....FCS..... 4 targets; 4 shots and all KD's are down....lucky shooter.

 

 

+1

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

It makes my teeth hurt that an RO and 3 spotters can get this wrong.

 

CLEAN....FCS..... 4 targets; 4 shots and all KD's are down....lucky shooter.

 

DItto dat!

[Fordyce Beals]

Lucky shooter has it correct, Cowboy action shooting is the best!

 

Fordyce

[Flying W Ramrod]

Had this happen three times on the posse I was on. Luckily I was able to convince the RO/Spotters it was no call.

Some of the RO's and Spotters have been around, and on the job, for a long time and it's still odd there's a problem out there.

 

As to the OP

four shots fired, four targets down, no call, next shooter please.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Just a helpful hint.

If a SG target falls before you engage it AND there is no order - engage it last.

 

That way "if" you have to engage another SG target more than once - you will have already fulfilled the round count prior to going to the already downed target and can bypass it.

4 shots - 4 targets down. Next shooter.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

I enjoy these 'whats the call' threads as it helps me apply rules to real world scenarios to build a foundation of knowledge so that when I finally take the RO course, I can be the nerd at the head of the class.

 

The way I see it, even in my limited experience: no call.

[Fast Enuff]

You've got to be ready to gently remind spotters that there is no determining intent, and the only thing that matters is round count and down targets (4+).

 

1) You have to shoot at least 4 rounds. DONE

2) All 4 targets are down. DONE

 

A simple way to look at it is this: what if the wind blows down all 4 targets during the stage? You shoot 4 in their general direction. As a good sportsman, you do the courtesy of generally pointing where each is, especially when there is an order to shooting them. Spotters don't get to call misses based on where they think the pattern went. Lucky shooter. Next shooter.

 

Where things get dicey is when the wind holds them UP so badly that 12 shots doesn't take down 4 targets. Unlucky shooter? Target failure? Generally it's called unlucky shooter. Which can really leave a bitter taste if you don't know that's how it usually works. The luck door swings both ways.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

You've got to be ready to gently remind spotters that there is no determining intent, and the only thing that matters is round count and down targets (4+).

 

1) You have to shoot at least 4 rounds. DONE

2) All 4 targets are down. DONE

 

A simple way to look at it is this: what if the wind blows down all 4 targets during the stage? You shoot 4 in their general direction. As a good sportsman, you do the courtesy of generally pointing where each is, especially when there is an order to shooting them. Spotters don't get to call misses based on where they think the pattern went. Lucky shooter. Next shooter.

 

Where things get dicey is when the wind holds them UP so badly that 12 shots doesn't take down 4 targets. Unlucky shooter? Target failure? Generally it's called unlucky shooter. Which can really leave a bitter taste if you don't know that's how it usually works. The luck door swings both ways.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Where things get dicey is when the wind holds them UP so badly that 12 shots doesn't take down 4 targets. Unlucky shooter? Target failure? Generally it's called unlucky shooter. Which can really leave a bitter taste if you don't know that's how it usually works. The luck door swings both ways.

Wow, I can't even imagine how strong that wind would have to be, unless there are KD targets that are a lot lighter than what we use. Do people shooting mousefart loads have trouble making it to the target with headwinds like that?

[Madd Mike #8595]

Four kd's down, still requires that the four shots fired, were aimed where the kd's were when standing

 

You can't just fire aimlessly down range to save a tad bit of time

 

Next shooter please

[Snakebite]

Yeah, I was waiting for this to be put out on the wire for a test run... I'm the guy that called the miss. This was in the Plainsman Event. The shooter loaded the SXS and shot the first two shotgun targets knocking them down. He reloaded and then shot the third target but failed to put it down, so he used the second round to shoot it again. He was told to shoot where the last target was, but he choose not to. You owe the stage 4 shotgun shots before you even fire the gun. If you fail to knock one of the shotgun targets down, you have the option to make it up with another shot, ... but that does NOT excuse you from the obligation to shoot where the downed target was... YOU CAN NOT JUST IGNORE IT.

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

O-Yeah... I forgot... the rest of the story. After the stage the shooter came to me and said. "What if I was shooting at the fallen target, and missed it and hit the 3rd target, and THEN used the last round to shoot that target again"?

I ask him "Are you telling me that IS WHAT YOU DID?", and then he said "Yes".

 

At that point, I turned to the scorekeeper, right in front him and told the scorekeeper to REMOVE the miss, which she did! It is a matter of fact, and record.

 

Snakebite

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

So if i fire 2 shots taking down the first two targets and then a third shot takes down the other two and you are not there to tell me which one I missed how do I know which to re-engage with the fourth round?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

What would it take for us to have the word "intent" added to the list of outlawed items?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

but that does NOT excuse you from the obligation to shoot where the downed target was... YOU CAN NOT JUST IGNORE IT.

 

Snakebite

This one is simple. Yes you can.

We DO NOT judge intent, we judge results.

Four shots fired, four targets down.

Doesn't matter how, doesn't matter why. If you make ANY call other than clean, you are wrong.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

but that does NOT excuse you from the obligation to shoot where the downed target was... YOU CAN NOT JUST IGNORE IT.

 

Snakebite

This one is simple. Yes you can.

We DO NOT judge intent, we judge results.

Four shots fired, four targets down.

Doesn't matter how, doesn't matter why. If you make ANY call other than clean, you are wrong.

[Cowboy Junky]

Just a helpful hint.

If a SG target falls before you engage it AND there is no order - engage it last.

 

That way "if" you have to engage another SG target more than once - you will have already fulfilled the round count prior to going to the already downed target and can bypass it.

4 shots - 4 targets down. Next shooter.

I spend a lot of time running a timer and it amazes me that very few people do that..........Shooter 1.......Spotter and RO 0.

[Snakebite]

It is obvious that I see the rule different than most. The following instruction was given but not followed. The reference to no penalty applies if the shooter complies with the RO's instruction to shoot where the target was. IMO, this idea that the shooter does not need to engage the failed target is not correct .... but it appears that I have no support on this one. This instruction has NOTHING to do with the shooter re-engaging a missed shotgun target.

 

"TARGET FAILURE

In the event a target fails, the Chief Range Officer shall instruct the shooter to “shoot where it was.” This call will never result in a penalty of any kind to the shooter. This process has been found to be far less confusing, and thereby safer, to the shooter than requiring an alternate target to be engaged, although it is perfectly acceptable for the shooter to engage an alternate target and be scored for hits and misses in the normal manner. Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target."

Snakebite

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Much depends on the position of the target(s) engaged and the application of the "golden BB" hitting the target.

Let's assume 4 targets spread widely across the bay. When the shooter engages the targets there is no doubt as to which target is being engaged.

If the wind (or something else) knocks down two of the targets on the right. The shooter must still engage those targets regardless of how many shots are fired on the left targets. What the shooter does on one target does not give him the right to disregard other targets on the stage.

If the was a flyer on the stage, the shooter would have to engage that flyer no matter what before he/she was allowed to engage any make up target that may be provided if the shooter missed the flyer.

Randomly shooting a shot down range without the "intent" to engage a target.

The shooter must engage the designated target whether it is up or down and in the correct order in order to avoid a miss or a procedural penalty.

A shooter given the instruction to engage the targets left to right 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 cannot bypass a target simply because it is down. If target 3 where to fall prematurely, the shooter must still shoot the targets in the correct order. Shooting target 4 before shooting at where target 3 was should earn the shooter a Procedural. Missing target 2 would not give him the right to use his third shot on target 2 and then skip over target 3 and use his 4th shot on target 4.

Targets should be set to allow a clear miss. Thereby removing the all doubt of the shooters "intent".

Many times shotgun targets are placed too close to make a call as to what target the shooter was engaging.

 

Matches, especially major matches, can hang on very small time intervals. They should not be determined by a gust of wind blowing a target over.

Shooters intentionally not engaging targets because they "got lucky" should be a candidate for one of those fine Spirit of the Game penalties that are so rarely awarded.

 

I stand with Snakebite on this one.

[Snakebite]

AOH I do agree with everything that you said, target placement does indeed play into this. The targets in this case were close together, after considering that fact, and talking to the shooter, I did remove the miss. But I stand by my assertion that targets that fall down on their own need to be engaged.

 

Snakebite

 

Just a side note:

APPEALS PROCEDURE

Each Range Officer shall be briefed regarding the appeals procedure. In the event a call is challenged at the line, the Chief Range Officer should know the chain of command for directing the shooter to the next higher authority to settle the dispute. It is just as important to observe an appropriate chain of command for a match as in any other organization. Remember, attitudes affect perception, and poor attitudes and shooting sports don’t mix well.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

 

APPEALS PROCEDURE

Each Range Officer shall be briefed regarding the appeals procedure. In the event a call is challenged at the line, the Chief Range Officer should know the chain of command for directing the shooter to the next higher authority to settle the dispute. It is just as important to observe an appropriate chain of command for a match as in any other organizatio. Remember, attitudes affect perception, and poor attitudes and shooting sports don’t mix well.

 

 

 

Randomly shooting a shot down range without the "intent" to engage a target.

 

Targets should be set to allow a clear miss. Thereby removing the all doubt of the shooters "intent".

Many times shotgun targets are placed too close to make a call as to what target the shooter was engaging.

 

Matches, especially major matches, can hang on very small time intervals. They should not be determined by a gust of wind blowing a target over.

Shooters intentionally not engaging targets because they "got lucky" should be a candidate for one of those fine Spirit of the Game penalties that are so rarely awarded.

 

I stand with Snakebite on this one.

So now....according to you two.... we must judge 'intent' as well as the shooter's 'attitude'? XXX? are you pulling from the same jug?

 

Creeker...much as I sometimes disagree is 100% correct.

 

4 targets/ 4 shots.... all down... ANY OTHER CALL FOR ANY OTHER REASON OR CONSIDERATION IS WRONG.

[Snakebite]

Well, I guess that settles it.

 

Snakebite

[Madd Mike #8595]

This one is simple. Yes you can.

We DO NOT judge intent, we judge results.

Four shots fired, four targets down.

Doesn't matter how, doesn't matter why. If you make ANY call other than clean, you are wrong.

So, you

being the most powerful person on the board of the Nevada state championship

will NOT equally enforce

Shoot where it was

[Ramblin Gambler]

Good points on both sides. For my part, I never realized I wasn't supposed to hit the downed target. Everytime I've seen someone shooting at a downed SG target, I always see the pellets (well maybe its the wad, but something) hitting it.

 

It's kinda hard for me to aim at nothing.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Good points on both sides. For my part, I never realized I wasn't supposed to hit the downed target. Everytime I've seen someone shooting at a downed SG target, I always see the pellets (well maybe its the wad, but something) hitting it.

 

It's kinda hard for me to aim at nothing.

Nothing,

Come on

You know where it was?

[Ramblin Gambler]

What can I say, I practice to hit, not miss.

 

And as I said, I didn't know before this that we weren't supposed to hit the downed targets. Most people appear to hit it anyway.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Four kd's down, still requires that the four shots fired, were aimed where the kd's were when standing

 

You can't just fire aimlessly down range to save a tad bit of time

 

Next shooter please

Actually, you can. Perhaps you missed PWB's post?

 

Much depends on the position of the target(s) engaged and the application of the "golden BB" hitting the target.

Let's assume 4 targets spread widely across the bay. When the shooter engages the targets there is no doubt as to which target is being engaged.

If the wind (or something else) knocks down two of the targets on the right. The shooter must still engage those targets regardless of how many shots are fired on the left targets. What the shooter does on one target does not give him the right to disregard other targets on the stage.

If the was a flyer on the stage, the shooter would have to engage that flyer no matter what before he/she was allowed to engage any make up target that may be provided if the shooter missed the flyer.

Randomly shooting a shot down range without the "intent" to engage a target.

The shooter must engage the designated target whether it is up or down and in the correct order in order to avoid a miss or a procedural penalty.

A shooter given the instruction to engage the targets left to right 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 cannot bypass a target simply because it is down. If target 3 where to fall prematurely, the shooter must still shoot the targets in the correct order. Shooting target 4 before shooting at where target 3 was should earn the shooter a Procedural. Missing target 2 would not give him the right to use his third shot on target 2 and then skip over target 3 and use his 4th shot on target 4.

Targets should be set to allow a clear miss. Thereby removing the all doubt of the shooters "intent".

Many times shotgun targets are placed too close to make a call as to what target the shooter was engaging.

 

Matches, especially major matches, can hang on very small time intervals. They should not be determined by a gust of wind blowing a target over.

Shooters intentionally not engaging targets because they "got lucky" should be a candidate for one of those fine Spirit of the Game penalties that are so rarely awarded.

 

I stand with Snakebite on this one.

See above. The spokesman for the ROC has answered that it's a no call, but you're saying it's a SOG. I think I'll stick with PWB.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

4 shots fired.....4 targets down.....Next shooter please.

 

 

........and some folks wonder why the rule book(s) are the way they are.......

 

 

Stan - who has seen bullets impact no where in the vicinity of their intended target MANY times so please don't try to convince me that YOU can tell what a shooter was aiming at every time they pull the damn trigger just by where the shot hits the berm.......

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

So, you

being the most powerful person on the board of the Nevada state championship

will NOT equally enforce

Shoot where it was

I enforce the rules AS WRITTEN and clarified by the ROC.

I do so tire of your constant attempts to undermine me, my club and our events.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Actually, you can. Perhaps you missed PWB's post?

 

 

See above. The spokesman for the ROC has answered that it's a no call, but you're saying it's a SOG. I think I'll stick with PWB.

I guess that I must be confused

Some where in all of these post, And not necessarily this one specific post topic

I have seen the rule posted

"Shoot where it was"

That is what I keep hearing the voices say

"Shoot where it was"

The wire is full of folks making comments

 

If you do not have to enforce that at any shoot, than do not

My badd

 

I see it as a possible very slight advantage, just slam firing rounds down range, not breaking the minimum feet from the shooter rule, and not aiming at anything

 

Oh well

I guess that I stand corrected

Next shooter