Rules question for PWB

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

There was a ruling today at the Idaho State Match that shotshells carried in a hat band constitute illegally acquired ammunition. Checking the shooters manuel, this is not mentioned anywhere as either legal or illegal. My wife, Black Mountain Cat has carried extra shotshells this way for several years now including at Winter Range and no one has ever said anything. It came up today for another shooter on our posse and was ruled to be illegally acquired ammunition. In light of no specific language (checked Shooters Manuel, RO-l & RO-ll) what would be the proper ruling?

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

Did they just "carry them" there ? Or did they use them ?

[Yusta B.]

If they were used during the stage then >>>>

 

Shooters Handbook p11

 

• Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the
shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be
safely staged as required by stage instructions.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

There was a ruling today at the Idaho State Match that shotshells carried in a hat band constitute illegally acquired ammunition. Checking the shooters manuel, this is not mentioned anywhere as either legal or illegal. My wife, Black Mountain Cat has carried extra shotshells this way for several years now including at Winter Range and no one has ever said anything. It came up today for another shooter on our posse and was ruled to be illegally acquired ammunition. In light of no specific language (checked Shooters Manuel, RO-l & RO-ll) what would be the proper ruling?

 

The penalties for "use or presence of illegal equipment" related to carrying of ammo were rescinded a few years ago (used to be a SDQ).

 

Those previously listed "illegal items" (e.g. tied-down bandoliers, ammo in hatbands, &tc) were moved under the

"USE of illegally acquired ammunition" rule...which meant that rounds may be carried any way the shooter wishes, but

if ammo brought to the line in any manner that is NOT APPROVED (SBH p.11) is USED for stage reloads (including SG), the specified penalties would apply ...same as if SG rounds were handed to the shooter by the T/O:

 

PROCEDURAL + Misses on any targets HIT with that ammo.

 

If the ammo is NOT USED, there is no penalty.

 

REF: SHB pp.21 & 25 / RO1 pp. 20, 23, 24, & 30

[Ramblin Gambler]

Gunna have to call a P on both of ya cause this was a question only for the Powers What Be.

 

Dang, now I got a P too. Well as long as I'm here, can we see a picture of how the shooter was carrying them and how your wife does it? Maybe the hatband has shell loops. Would that matter?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Gunna have to call a P on both of ya cause this was a question only for the Powers What Be. Dang, now I got a P too. Well as long as I'm here, can we see a picture of how the shooter was carrying them and how your wife does it? Maybe the hatband has shell loops. Would that matter?

 

NO.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I recall about a dozen years ago some shooters were carrying rifle reloads in their hatbands. Didn't seem right to me but I was just visiting that club. Some years later I saw it had been ruled illegal.

[Hoss]

What about tucking a rifle/pistol reload in a suspender loop?

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

Many thanks Pale Wolf for your quick response. It clarifys a situation I had the wrong take on. We will have to figure out a different way for my lady to pack her extra SG rounds (she didn't use her hat this time) and the other shooter on our posse will have to live with misses and the procedural. I will now apologize to some folks I mis-led and move on...

[Wyatt]

What about tucking a rifle/pistol reload in a suspender loop?

 

SHB Pg.11

 

Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the

shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be

safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are

acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo

belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be

carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,

cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

 

The rule book is a very good read

 

[Checotah]

 

SHB Pg.11

 

Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the

shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be

safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are

acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo

belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be

carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,

cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

 

The rule book is a very good read

 

 

Regardless of how I feel about ammo carried in cleavage..... this is the rule. Actually, OK to carry it, just don't use. Wait....I'll retrieve it for you......

[Blackey Cole]

When cartridge loops on holster become legal again? I thought it was like cartridge loops on cowboy cuff illegal or use to be. Now are the loops on cuff legal since it a cartridge loop on the person. Or must it be a pocket or pouch on the cuff to be legal.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

When cartridge loops on holster become legal again?

About 10+ years ago.

I thought it was like cartridge loops on cowboy cuff illegal or use to be.

still not

Now are the loops on cuff legal since it a cartridge loop on the person.

NO

Or must it be a pocket or pouch on the cuff to be legal.

NO...forget the "cuff".

 

RT*M.

REF: SHB p.11 (quoted above in post #10)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"...must be carried..." means that ONLY those methods specifically listed are LEGAL for carrying ammo for stage reloads.

Any other method of carry is NOT LEGAL.

 

The "USE of illegally acquired ammunition" violation/penalty ONLY applies when ammo carried otherwise is actually USED during a stage.

[Cowboy Junky]

 

SHB Pg.11

 

Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the

shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be

safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are

acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo

belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be

carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,

cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

 

The rule book is a very good read

 

I think we need to take a closer look at that.

[Snakebite]

What about tucking a rifle/pistol reload in a suspender loop?

It's not legal ammo. If you do it, you can not use it for a re-load..

Snakebite

[Yusta B.]

Getting where the rule needs to state "Cartridge loops must be on a belt, bandoleer, holster or belt mounted slide." or something similar.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

Getting where the rule needs to state "Cartridge loops must be on a belt, bandoleer, holster or belt mounted slide." or something similar.

I agree with this. The rule, as written, says that you can carry reloads in a holster, but does not say that you can carry them in a loop on a holster. If the interpretation is in conflict with the text, then it is time for a clarification.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Whoever doesn't understand that rule by now just needs to ask for clarification.

No need to expand the text to add any more verbiage to what it is already.

 

IMO.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

"Clarifications" which contradict the actual text of instructions are what we, in the process and standards business, refer to as "family traditions, tribal lore and songs around the campfire".

 

WRT the issue of loops on a holster, the actual wording does not allow for such. Interestingly enough, the rule, as written, would allow for using an empty Derringer holster on your suspenders and putting your reloads in it. I feel certain that, if this was done, there would be a "clarification" that this was not legal.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Wow is all I can say

[Marauder SASS #13056]

We definitely need a clarification of the revision of the expansion of the latest interpretation of the rule.

 

So we can then request further clarification to make it perfectly clear in every situation. Of course, then we will need more situations to require more clarification - to which we must respond to avoid the possible conflicts brought about by the variety of situations.

 

And we will need to clarify those situations further.

 

I work for the government, and I'm here to help you...

 

P.S.

But let me clarify that, since I'm now retired, I no longer actually work for the government.

 

Except for when I subcontract out to the government in which I may be working for the government.

 

See page 756, paragraph 16, sub paragraph 2b

 

And note the other 17 orders related to the case. And the agency and court clarifications to further . . .

[Ramblin Gambler]

Whoever doesn't understand that rule by now just needs to ask for clarification.

No need to expand the text to add any more verbiage to what it is already.

 

IMO.

OK allow me, cause I just got confused about the holster thing. When I read it, this is what I thought about.

 

 

The post above yours makes it sound like that's not allowed.

 

And as far as carrying cartridges in an otherwise empty holster, I thought there was a thread on the wire a few months back where it was declared it was illegal to have extra holsters. In that particular thread, someone wanted to switch back and forth between a crossdraw and a regular holster on their weak side without having to take the belt off and and redo everything.

[Flying W Ramrod]

OK allow me, cause I just got confused about the holster thing. When I read it, this is what I thought about.

 

 

The post above yours makes it sound like that's not allowed.

 

And as far as carrying cartridges in an otherwise empty holster, I thought there was a thread on the wire a few months back where it was declared it was illegal to have extra holsters. In that particular thread, someone wanted to switch back and forth between a crossdraw and a regular holster on their weak side without having to take the belt off and and redo everything.

This is allowed every where except the District of Columbia.

[Madd Mike #8595]

This is the type of change in shooters thought process in SASS THAT may not be the best for the whole of CAS

 

Is it really the cowboy way to wear three holsters?

Yes I said cowboy way!

 

Does that type of thought process emulate the spirit of the old west in any way.

 

Mileage always varies,

 

Post script

watch the new TV show "Gunslingers"

I have watched these three show so far, Jesse, wild bill, and billy

Pretty interesting

THERE Pushing and testing of the rules of life lead to a large penalty in round about ways

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REF: SHB p.11

 

 

HOLSTERS, CARTRIDGE BELTS, AND BANDOLEERS

• All handguns must be carried in a safe holster capable of retaining the firearm throughout a normal range of motion.

• Main match holsters must be located one on each side of the belly button and separated by at least the width of two fists at the belt.

(Note: Pocket pistol and Derringer holsters are not “main-match” holsters.)

 

Two sides = ONLY TWO "main match" holsters allowed to be worn at a time.
That was the ruling regarding the shooter who wanted to switch back & forth from two types of holsters on the same side of the belt.

NOT LEGAL.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"Clarifications" which contradict the actual text of instructions are what we, in the process and standards business, refer to as "family traditions, tribal lore and songs around the campfire".

 

WRT the issue of loops on a holster, the actual wording does not allow for such. Interestingly enough, the rule, as written, would allow for using an empty Derringer holster on your suspenders and putting your reloads in it. I feel certain that, if this was done, there would be a "clarification" that this was not legal.

 

Carrying ammo on SUSPENDERS (whether in a loop, ctg slide, tucked into the suspender, or in a derringer holster) is NOT LEGAL as "on suspenders" is NOT on the list of approved methods for carrying ammo for stage reloads.

 

That, and the fact that Judge Roy Bean hisself ruled 20+ years ago that a "tied down bandolier is a suspender and therefore NOT LEGAL", which is the basis for disallowing "secured/tied down" bandoliers.

 

It has been since ruled that using suspenders to hold up gun/ammo belts IS allowed (including in BW cat)...but USE OF ammo carried on the suspender straps themselves is NOT...unless one has a medical exemption that precludes wearing a regular ammo waist belt...same applies to a tied-down/secured bandolier.

 

How's THAT for a "clarification"?

[Flying W Ramrod]

On a completely different note:

Jax Leather has developed shotshell loops that either fit in like a slide, or are sewn into your vest pockets.

They hold 3 shells well and hold them upright like a shotshell belt.

Yes, they are legal as the rounds are carried in a pocket and real easy to pull.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just don't use them in a POUCH!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

 

Carrying ammo on SUSPENDERS (whether in a loop, ctg slide, tucked into the suspender, or in a derringer holster) is NOT LEGAL as "on suspenders" is NOT on the list of approved methods for carrying ammo for stage reloads.

 

That, and the fact that Judge Roy Bean hisself ruled 20+ years ago that a "tied down bandolier is a suspender and therefore NOT LEGAL", which is the basis for disallowing "secured/tied down" bandoliers.

 

It has been since ruled that using suspenders to hold up gun/ammo belts IS allowed (including in BW cat)...but USE OF ammo carried on the suspender straps themselves is NOT...unless one has a medical exemption that precludes wearing a regular ammo waist belt...same applies to a tied-down/secured bandolier.

 

How's THAT for a "clarification"?

But what if it was a Tuesday and the sun was obscured by clouds and you couldn't see your shadow?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

But what if it was a Tuesday and the sun was obscured by clouds and you couldn't see your shadow?

 

Same applies except on the 2^nd Tuesday of any given week in October in years that end in "0".

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I used to in ancient times always wear a Horsefly cowboy shootin' shirt(s) that had two breast/chest pockets. I would fold up a standard bandana and carry 5 shells in behind the bandana in each pocket and carry 10 shells to the line that way. The bandana held the shells upright so I could get aholt of them okey dokey.

 

On a completely different note:

Jax Leather has developed shotshell loops that either fit in like a slide, or are sewn into your vest pockets.

They hold 3 shells well and hold them upright like a shotshell belt.

Yes, they are legal as the rounds are carried in a pocket and real easy to pull.

[Celt]

"

SHB Pg.11

 

Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the

shooter’s person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be

safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are

acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo

belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be

carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,

cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

"

 

OMG, SASS has a Monica Lewinski rule? Who woulda thunk it?

[Ramblin Gambler]

Can someone explain why you can't wear a slide over shotgun loops on a belt? I may have asked this before, but I don't remember the answer.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Can someone explain why you can't wear a slide over shotgun loops on a belt? I may have asked this before, but I don't remember the answer.

Because the rule book says you can't.

Because it puts the shells away from the body and makes them easier to grab.