Chief Rick Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Shooter loads pistols and rifle at loading table and places pistols in holsters. As shooter is walking to starting position, the buckle on the pistol belt slips out of the belt and allows the pisol belt, with loaded pistols in holsters to fall to the ground. What's the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 whatever Lafitte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I 'think' that is a No call, if pistols maintained their holstered position. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appalachian Alan Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Are pistols still in holster ? or did they come out ? no call if IN, MDQ if Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Yes - MDQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Are pistols still in holster ? or did they come out ? no call if IN, MDQ if Out PWB has posted agreement with this call many (well more than a few) times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 If any part of the barrel of both pistols are still in holster, No Call. If either pistol is completly out of the holster, MDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 PS p.15 of the ROI, "A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 All of pistols, in this instance, did remain in holsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 REF: SHB p.21 / RO1 p.15 (#2) http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=206683&page=3#entry2660579 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 O K - but where is this stated in the Rules. All I have found is rule about dropped gun. In holster or out, the gun is still dropped. I have no issue with "No Call" in holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The referenced rule does not cover dropped guns. Perhaps the stated reference should have that added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 read the last 6 words again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 O K - but where is this stated in the Rules. All I have found is rule about dropped gun. In holster or out, the gun is still dropped. I have no issue with "No Call" in holster.Agree. RO1, Appendix A, Page 15, #2 does state: A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. But immediately afterwards states: Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification. Then under Match Disqualifications on Page 25: Dropping a loaded firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 NO CALL... check buckle at ULT. Next shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 NO CALL... check buckle at ULT. Next shooter. Next shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The rule certainly covers wearing holsters that point rearward and sweep someone. But a dropped gun is different than sweeping. I have no problem with this being a "No Call" - just that it is not explicit in this rule. Just think "dropped guns" should be added to the rule to be clear. Or change the "dropped gun" rule to say "except when secured in holsters". Rules should be clear and unambiguous, as possible. Not debating what the Call should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 ROI Page 29 Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. The loaded pistols are intended to be in the holster. ROI P 15 A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Neither rule states where the holster has to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Time to switch dead horses. If the revolvers are in the holster it's a no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I do not believe it was intended to be in the holster on the ground. It was intended to be in the holster which is secured to the shooter's body. Lets just make the dropped gun rule clear not to include "in the holster". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 amen!!!!!!!! whoops, am I allowed to say that? this is a dead horse! it's been answered several times......the guns weren't dropped the holsters were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Time to switch dead horses. If the revolvers are in the holster it's a no call. Hey now, it has been six months almost to the day. The smell is way down by now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I do not believe it was intended to be in the holster on the ground. It was intended to be in the holster which is secured to the shooter's body. Lets just make the dropped gun rule clear not to include "in the holster". I kind of thought along the same lines when we went through this the last time... But you got to call 'em as they are and try to keep up with how they are interpreted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I guess some folks need a whiff of the rotting equine every so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 This one is past smelling, just an old hide and some skin. Wonder how many more ways to say "No call" will be requested? CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 NO CALL...the OP clarified that the revolvers remained holstered (post #9) REF: the previous 4-page discussion linked in post #10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I do not believe anyone has questioned the Call since Allie's Post #6. The call is "No Call" ! The comments after Post #6 are that the Call does not seem to flow unambiguously from the written Rules and required interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 what if....what if....what if (trying to get a little more life out of this dead horse ).....when the shooter is walking to the line from the loading table and his gunbelt and holsters falls down to this ankles and the shooter trips and he drops his rifle and shotgun on the way to the line?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 what if....what if....what if (trying to get a little more life out of this dead horse ).....when the shooter is walking to the line from the loading table and his gunbelt and holsters falls down to this ankles and the shooter trips and he drops his rifle and shotgun on the way to the line?? MDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I do not believe anyone has questioned the Call since Allie's Post #6. The call is "No Call" ! The comments after Post #6 are that the Call does not seem to flow unambiguously from the written Rules and required interpretation. The 'interpretation' has been stated previously as it applies to the OP situation. REF: post #90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 4 misses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 This BTW is why I don't wear Brag buckles on my gunbelt, it didn't fall off of my hips but I felt it loosening while shooting the rifle, last time I wore a buckle that only had a post instead of a regular buckle type like the Quakers wore... can I say Quakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 This BTW is why I don't wear Brag buckles on my gunbelt, it didn't fall off of my hips but I felt it loosening while shooting the rifle, last time I wore a buckle that only had a post instead of a regular buckle type like the Quakers wore... can I say Quakers? OH GREAT!!!!! Now we're bring in the QUAKERS...What's next??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Pilgrims! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Perhaps a different topic that doesn't ask, "What's the Call" is in order(?). I understand why this issue continues to be debated. These aren't stupid people arguing what the rules state or what PWB's Wire forum call is or challanging PWB's capacity to make such a call. I think everyone respects PWB's oracle status and understands what the call is here, with PWB even referring back to the earlier topic. So, I don't believe that the debate has anything to do with the call. As I see it, the debate is this: Given the scenario that: A gunbelt with loaded weapons, hammer down on a supposedly empty chamber, disengages and falls off the shooter's body and strikes the ground with the muzzels pointed haphazardly. Then, the question is: Why are penalties not imposed in this scenario, while penalties are imposed in other scenarios, which are equally or even less dangerous than this scenario? The debate has nothing to do with the rules, in my mind, because the rules have been cited and the call has been made ... several times. It simply seems to me (and apparently others) that there are gaps in the logic of the rules or the interpretation of those rules (which in this case are for safety), as they relate to this real or hypothetical scenario. That's what should be addressed and resolved, in my mind ---EDIT--- rather than being shouted down. As I stated, I think this should be debated in another topic that is not concerned with, What's the Call. We know what the call is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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