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Ace_of_Hearts

Blue Jeans or not

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WRANGLERS at Comin At Cha ? LOL oh yea I saw the pic ;)

I really hate winter :)

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"Period style" blue jeans should be okay. "Modern style" ones should not be.

 

You know, a thought occurs to me, the EXACT same arguments used against "modern" jeans, whatever that means, could be used in the following manner...

 

Colts are okay. Rugers are not.

 

Think about it....

 

The Ruger is a modern gun that sort of looks like a Colt, which existed back in the day, but it's not exactly the same.

 

Modern day jeans with belt loops sort of look like the ones that existed back in the day, but they are not exactly the same.

 

The argument and the reasoning are idendtical. And yet, nobody who doesn't like modern jeans is advocating for the outlawing of the Ruger. If they did, they'd be loudly, and justifiably, shouted down.

 

Just seems to me that the logic in arguing against modern jeans makes about as much sense as saying the Ruger needs to go.

 

Anybody else ever notice this?

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Guest Maker-Wright

The SINGLE ACTION Shooting Society.... fostering "Wild Bunch" and the use of 1911's... but banning blue jeans???

 

makes about as much sense as the National FOOTBALL League allowing a portion of the league to play the game with a BASKETBALL, but banning the use of white socks.

 

Pick a Path!

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Got any pictures? :o

Would that be then-------

Do as I say/NOT as I do. ;)

LG

 

 

Yep I seen it with my own eyes.

AND I have seen the pics.

 

Guess he will say that he had on a B Western type shirt so it made it OK even though he did not shoot BW. :blink:

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Yep I seen it with my own eyes.

AND I have seen the pics.

 

Guess he will say that he had on a B Western type shirt so it made it OK even though he did not shoot BW. :blink:

 

Actually, that's just fine. A BW outfit, which may include blue jeans, may be worn by any shooter even if they are not shooting that category . :)

 

Love to see the pics! :D

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Is the next item on the banned agenda pointy toe cowboy boots??

Perhaps rather banning items we should celebrate new folks that spend big bucks on leather, guns, ammo, membership fees to SASS and Local Clubs, carts, and accept them into our ranks giving credit for pointy boots, jeans, western or long sleeve chambray shirt and a straw cowboy hat.

 

Even in Montana when I was a kid everyone that actually worked cattle knew summer time you wore straw, winter felt hat was in order

 

1930s Eastern Montana was not far removed from the old west, horses were ridden to school, town, country dances. Cattle were driven many miles on horseback, gun fights in the streets were very rare as they were in the old west unless back lots at Burbank were actually the old west. Blue Jeans and Chambray work shirts are what cowboys wore then

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Is the next item on the banned agenda pointy toe cowboy boots??

 

 

Would not hurt my feelings. Dang thangs make my feets hurt! :lol: Just kidding....I think. ;)

 

In any case, the 1930s is not really the Old West - oh, I know it was close enough to still smell the dust, but.....

 

FWIW, we have lots of "real" cowboys in these parts, and they think we dress funny! :D

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Well, in the spirit of co-operation and until such time as it is no longer applicable (if ever) I am changing my recitation of what the minimum costuming required is...

 

Plain jeans, leather shows or boots, and a long sleeved work shirt.

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Well, in the spirit of co-operation and until such time as it is no longer applicable (if ever) I am changing my recitation of what the minimum costuming required is...

 

Plain jeans, leather shows or boots, and a long sleeved work shirt.

+1

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This notion that "Cowboys" wore suspender pants and long sleeve shirts is just a fanciful notion in the minds of those who never worked a day on a ranch running fence, riding fence line or having to toss a calf on its side and brand the silly beast. Suspenders firmly attached to pants ala Whamaker are dangerous. It is too darn easy to get a cows leg caught inside the suspenders. It is too darn easy riding through scrub oak and cedar to get caught on suspenders and getting yanked around in the saddle or even if at a trot out of the saddle. If anyone spends time looking at pictures from the 1870's - 1900ish, you will rarely see suspenders on a working cowboy. Belts around the waist were most commmon. Many pants even had belt loops, usually only three or four. Anyone who grew up on a working ranch back in the 40's or 50's who had cowboys who were getting along in years would know those ol rough and tough men wore jeans to work in. I was very lucky to spend a great deal of my youth on a working ranch. I never saw a cowboy working in suspenders. I did see jeans and thermal tshirts, or blue denium shirts on the punchers. Sunday, they would dress in a pair of suspendered pants and a nice white shirt buttoned to the neck with a bow tie or string tie. Me, I think I am just gonna wear what a real working Texas cowboy wore daily, heck I might even just wear just a union suit to shoot in like a few of those old punchers wore who were banking the fire/ coals and keeping the irons hot for branding.. that was afore this new fangled ear tag stuff came along. What the heck is that? Ifn ya want to know about worming cattle or birthing calves, shoeing horses or cutting buls for converting to steers... I could rant even longer.

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True, but modern jeans are not even close to 1873 period jeans. Hamilton Dry Goods sells (when in stock!) a nice pair of 1873 jeans. Don't really look much like modern jeans.....

The objection is jeans as part of a shooting outfit unless it is a BW outfit. As far as I know, Tex has no objections to modern jeans as part of a BW outfit - even if you are not shooting that category. OLD WEST and BW are two different animals. Both are embraced in the Shooter's Handbook, but they are separate costuming options.

 

The belief that jeans, a work shirt, boots, and a hat of some kind is a "SASS Minumum" is not in the rules, never was in the rules, but has become generally accepted. Why? Well, it's the advise we give to new folks just getting started, and for good reason, but the expectation has been that when they could, they would step up their costuming - but many have not! I think, in Tex's view, the result has been a degrading of the costuming aspect - the importance of which is clearly emphasized in the Shooter's Handbook.

 

One of the dangers of letting things "slide" is that it's hard to get it back.

 

Regards, GA

Howdy GA,

As you know I shoot CC so I don't have a burr under my saddle over this. I remember taking loops off and adding braces when I joined. A vast majority of the members know what the original intent of the " SASS Minimum " was. For those off us who been around awhile remember the time of the "costume Nazi's". It left such a bad taste that folks did not want to be accused of being one.

 

" One of the dangers of letting things "slide" is that it's hard to get it back" There is a very small minority of shooters whose "costume " should be upgraded. I was told of a shooter who came to match wanting to shoot BW with faded ripped jeans. How about folks wearing a type of bell bottom jeans.

 

Have you been to a state or above match where if some shooters were to take off their rig you would never know there were cowboy shooters???

 

I'm not a "clothing Nazi" and there has been pictures on this thread that look like what the original intent was suppose to be. Trying to define what would be the official " Blue Jean " should be would also be a long thread

 

. My take on the editorial is not to ban blue jeans. I can be wrong ( and I have wrong at times in the past) the intent was to light a fire to get people talking about the subject and maybe get the majority to help clean up the sloppiness on the bad costuming of the minority. The way Tex went about discussing this subject " good or bad" I think it got the desired effect to get people's attention.

 

Lets face it that a lot of the responses ( exclude the rants) have been describing what the proper blue jeans should look like

So in closing was Tex's editorial really for banning blue jeans or is it his way ( once again good or bad) to get the members involved to clean up the problem of bad costuming without making the handbooks larger with more regulations.

 

Just my $.02

Nawlins

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What about Wranglers of a different color.

They make tan, brown, black.

 

In Tex's eye. Are those ok?

Or does he just have a problem with BLUE. :huh:

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What about Wranglers of a different color.

They make tan, brown, black.

 

In Tex's eye. Are those ok?

Or does he just have a problem with BLUE. :huh:

Howdy A A,

That that is a good question. A far as the term Blue Jean it is some what generic. There are blue jean skirts and jackets and other clothing items.

 

Nawlins

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Al,

 

Where there any miners in the old west?

If so, could a person dress like one at a SASS competition?

yes,,,,why not

if they can shoot dressed like a baseball team at national finials, then why not :huh::lol::D

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Howdy GA,

As you know I shoot CC so I don't have a burr under my saddle over this. I remember taking loops off and adding braces when I joined. A vast majority of the members know what the original intent of the " SASS Minimum " was. For those off us who been around awhile remember the time of the "costume Nazi's". It left such a bad taste that folks did not want to be accused of being one.

 

" One of the dangers of letting things "slide" is that it's hard to get it back" There is a very small minority of shooters whose "costume " should be upgraded. I was told of a shooter who came to match wanting to shoot BW with faded ripped jeans. How about folks wearing a type of bell bottom jeans.

 

Have you been to a state or above match where if some shooters were to take off their rig you would never know there were cowboy shooters???

 

I'm not a "clothing Nazi" and there has been pictures on this thread that look like what the original intent was suppose to be. Trying to define what would be the official " Blue Jean " should be would also be a long thread

 

. My take on the editorial is not to ban blue jeans. I can be wrong ( and I have wrong at times in the past) the intent was to light a fire to get people talking about the subject and maybe get the majority to help clean up the sloppiness on the bad costuming of the minority. The way Tex went about discussing this subject " good or bad" I think it got the desired effect to get people's attention.

 

Lets face it that a lot of the responses ( exclude the rants) have been describing what the proper blue jeans should look like

So in closing was Tex's editorial really for banning blue jeans or is it his way ( once again good or bad) to get the members involved to clean up the problem of bad costuming without making the handbooks larger with more regulations.

 

Just my $.02

Nawlins

 

Hi, Kid.

 

I agree with you that Tex's purpose is to promote discussion, and by doing so get members to up their game with the costuming. I know that he is truly concerned about it, and feels strongly that it needs correction.

 

Yes, I have been to major matches where a small minority of shooters could not be told from the spectators once they removed their rigs. In fact, some of the spectators were dressed more "cowboy." I have also seen folks show up at the awards without hats, and wearing ball caps and sneakers! This behavior on the part of a few seems to be occurring more frequently, and appears to be on it's way to becoming an accepted norm. I am not about to speak for Tex, but I believe that is a a large part of what kicked this thing off!

 

GA

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Nawlins Kid -

 

Part of this discussion is spurred on by not only Tex's recent editorials, but the list of TG summit discussion items for the convention that include "should costume minimums be increased' and the sub item 'should jeans be outlawed in all but B-Western'. In addition to that there was a letter to the editor, and Tex's editorial comments following that, in the November Chronicle.

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Hi,

 

Although I haven't worn them to a match for years, I do not favor banning jeans from all but BW.

 

I do believe that some folks need to step it up. Following are two examples. The one on the left shot B-W. If I'd known, I would have spoken up as he was on my posse. His shirt wasn't even tucked in. Flashy and fancy, NOT! The one on the right shot Classic.

attachment.php?attachmentid=65236&stc=1&attachment.php?attachmentid=65216&stc=1&

 

That said, I know that there is no way to legislate "taste" and you can't legislate every nuance of a costume. It is a tricky subject and I'm not sure that modifying the rules will be productive. Time will tell, I will withhold judgment until I hear some specific suggestions at the Summit. Remember this is just a discussion item and will not be voted on this year. At least that is the usual process.

 

In light of these two examples, maybe we should take baby steps and just tighten up the "costume categories," BW and CC.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

 

PS This is a good discussion based on the fact that Editorials (opinion articles) should be discussed. Thank you for not letting it get out of hand like the last time Tex talked about costumes.

 

 

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Allie, the girl on the right shot Classic with jeans on?? I didn't think that was allowed in CC. Are the rules different for Classic Cowgirls?

 

Rye :)

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CLASSIC COWBOY/COWGIRL
• Any Main Match fixed sight model revolver.
• Revolvers must be shot duelist or double duelist style. See Duelist description for required
shooting technique.
• Rifles: Any 1873 or earlier manufacture SASS–legal rifle or a replica thereof (e.g., 1866
Winchester, 1860 Henry, 1873 Winchester).
• Revolver and rifle calibers: .40 caliber or larger, rimmed cartridges. Examples include, but
are not limited to, .38-40, .44 Special, .44 Russian, .44 Mag., .44-40, .45 Schofield, .45 Colt
or .36 caliber or larger cap and ball.
• May use any SASS–legal ammunition as long as it adheres to the above caliber restrictions.
• Shotguns: SASS–legal external hammer double barrel or lever actions.
• Costuming: Must choose at least five of the requirements listed below. All clothing items
must be worn appropriately during all shooting events and awards ceremonies.
Chaps, spurs, cuffs, tie or scarf worn loosely around the neck or with scarf slide, vest,
pocket watch with full length chain, jacket, sleeve garters, knife, botas, leggings, braces; no
straw or palm hats allowed.

• In addition to the above items, ladies may choose from the items listed below in order to
compete within this category:
Period watch, split riding skirt, bustle, hoops, corset, Victorian style hat (straw allowed),
period jewelry, period hair ornaments (e.g., feathers), snood, reticule (period handbag),
period lace up shoes, camisole, bloomers, fishnet stockings, feather boa, cape.
• No Buscadero or drop holster rigs allowed (i.e., part of the grip must be above the belt on
which the holster hangs).
• Boots are required and must be of traditional design with non-grip enhancing (i.e. “NO
Lug”) soles. Moccasins are not allowed.
• Hats must be worn for the entire match.

I see no mention that jeans are not allowed in Classic.

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Allie - for the B-Western shooter picture you posted

 

Costuming: Shirts must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons or any of the
following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes.
Shield shirts are also allowed if it has piping or embroidery.

That leaves the B-western style open to interpretation. for some that means Gene and Roy, for others it means Clint Eastwood or others.

 

Second edit...

 

It may fail the following point in the handbook however...

 

All costumes are expected to be fancy and flashy. The “B” Western costuming must be
worn during the entire match and awards ceremony with exception of evening formal
occasion

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Because it seems some people are ignoring the rules and/or "interpreting" them to suit themselves, on the "costume" categories of BW and Classic, our club has started the policy of having those two groups of shooters getting together BEFORE they start shooting to look over the clothing to be sure it is within the rules. That way, anyone NOT dressed correctly, or with the correct leather, etc, can change their category and not be penalized. I do not really understand, if you do not want to dress in the appropriate way, (and within the spirit of the particular category) why not simply shoot in a category that doesn't require specific clothing, guns and leather?

 

I have no problem with "blue" jeans as I have said before, nor with the minimum requirements that some stick with. It is, in my humble opinion, more fun to dress up as much as you can and any spectators certainly appreciate it. Be sure and tell those who do embrace the costuming how great they look perhaps it will encourage others.

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Hi,

 

Although I haven't worn them to a match for years, I do not favor banning jeans from all but BW.

 

I do believe that some folks need to step it up. Following are two examples. The one on the left shot B-W. If I'd known, I would have spoken up as he was on my posse. His shirt wasn't even tucked in. Flashy and fancy, NOT! The one on the right shot Classic.

 

 

That said, I know that there is no way to legislate "taste" and you can't legislate every nuance of a costume. It is a tricky subject and I'm not sure that modifying the rules will be productive. Time will tell, I will withhold judgment until I hear some specific suggestions at the Summit. Remember this is just a discussion item and will not be voted on this year. At least that is the usual process.

 

In light of these two examples, maybe we should take baby steps and just tighten up the "costume categories," BW and CC.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

 

PS This is a good discussion based on the fact that Editorials (opinion articles) should be discussed. Thank you for not letting it get out of hand like the last time Tex talked about costumes.

 

 

Howdy Allie Mo,

 

The pony express hasn't delivered my CC yet. Grizzly Dave I will be there atthe Summit ( hopefullyI to be able to sit at the same table as Miss Allie) and Istill think because of the editorials there will greater input from the membership thru their TG's.

 

Allie your pictures show examples of what I was talking about. The shooters take off their rigs and they don't look like cowboy shooters.

 

IMHO if the MD's and their clubs do not allow costumes like the examples that Allie has shown there would be no need to add more rules. Also the rules for CC and BW should be followed.

 

Nawlins

 

 

 

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I do not really understand, if you do not want to dress in the appropriate way, (and within the spirit of the particular category) why not simply shoot in a category that doesn't require specific clothing, guns and leather?

 

Maybe to allow the shooter to compete in a category that will allow them to place higher (in that category) due to lack of competition?

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In my opinion, common sense would indicate that the current rules should be, and somewhat generally are enforced incrementally as follows...

 

Monthly matches - some stuff slides, especially for new shooters

Club annuals - rules and standards enforced

State and above - rules and standards strictly enforced

 

But as we all know, that doesn't always happen. The question then becomes how can we encourage costume compliance?

 

More rules? If the rules currently in place are not being uniformly enforced, how can we expect new and much more restrictive rules to be enforced?

 

Clarify existing rules? While that certainly sounds good on the surface, those clarifications would be done to meet the interpretation of the committee or whatever as to what the vague current rules are. If effect creating new rules and standards.

 

I like Nevada Skye's approach for B-Western and Classic, it provides a method where by all of those in those categories are evaluated by the same person or people. Yes, folks could dress down after the pre-match inspection, but it's better than the way it works otherwise. From what I have seen costume related penalties are few and far between as it is left up to the posse marshal to evaluate and enforce, and they have better things to do. Also the violations are often brought forward by others at the match who may be in direct competition and leaves open the possibility of sour grapes and motives other than to just see the rules are enforced.

 

I think of some folks I shoot with who wear jeans, a work shirt, suspenders, boots, maybe a scarf, and cowboy hat. Take off the scarf and gunbelt and would they look horribly out of place at the grocery store? No, they wouldn't, not around here anyway. But in my opinion they look perfectly fine for cowboy matches as well.

 

I know that many really enjoy the costuming aspect of the sport, but if we as a group mandate strict enforcement of elaborate costuming I believe is will only serve to drive away not only new people, but also a lot of rank and file members, many of whom never shoot any match above maybe their own state match at the highest.

 

As I have said before, initiating discussion is a good thing, but I feel that the continued and regular harping on people who only dress the minimum is a very hurtful, devisive and damaging.

 

edit to add - but I guess that's how politics works, you repeatedly drive your point home prior to a vote or formal meeting. The sheer repetition meant to sway any on the fence and possibly make any appearance of a problem seem much worse than it actually is.

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...I do not really understand, if you do not want to dress in the appropriate way, (and within the spirit of the particular category) why not simply shoot in a category that doesn't require specific clothing, guns and leather?

...

 

Maybe to allow the shooter to compete in a category that will allow them to place higher (in that category) due to lack of competition?

Bingo!

 

I was told the individual in the BW category had been looking for a category he could win.

 

I apologize for being so opinionated about this one NOT! but an untucked shirt like he has on is not "flashy and fancy" and is insulting to the people who comply with the spirit of the category. He could have shot an age-based category.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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the convention should prove interesting



I guess that I may be narrow minded from time to time


I think clothing requirements should only be un-enforced for brand new shooters


but there is still a catch there,


brand new is how long? one shoot / one year, until they have enough $$



I feel that even in hot weather you can dress within the requirments of your category with cool shirts, light colors, cotton etc.


if you cant, then perhaps a hot weather change of category might be nice for change of pace


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Chief Rick, I imagine you are correct. Not a bad thing, as long as they embrace the spirit of the categories!!!!

 

And yes, Grizzly Dave, one of the reasons people are reluctant to point out those NOT following the rules is they don't want to be called Costume Nazi's or told they have sour grapes. But who best to know what the clothing categories rules are but the ones shooting in them? Seems it is okay to point out when ammo is wrong, or the wrong guns used, but for some reason not the clothing rules. (I am specifically speaking of the Costume categories here, btw).

 

And Allie Mo, I think you are 100% correct. Just like the guy who wore a newspaper boy's cap and still shot B Western, totally inappropriate.

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What about Wranglers of a different color.

They make tan, brown, black.

 

In Tex's eye. Are those ok?

Or does he just have a problem with BLUE. :huh:

I shot WB and both days of C@C on the same posse with Tex and family.

I wore brown Wranglers all 3 days. (no, not the same pair all 3 days) :)

He never said a word. Don't know if he even noticed.

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I agree with Tex..............................................................................................I heard Judge Parker had an opening.

 

Sugah and I have talked about Tex wearing Wranglers at Comin' at Cha. We think it might be his way of saying uncle. It might be his New Coke.

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In my opinion, common sense would indicate that the current rules should be, and somewhat generally are enforced incrementally as follows...

 

Monthly matches - some stuff slides, especially for new shooters

Club annuals - rules and standards enforced

State and above - rules and standards strictly enforced

 

But as we all know, that doesn't always happen. The question then becomes how can we encourage costume compliance?

 

More rules? If the rules currently in place are not being uniformly enforced, how can we expect new and much more restrictive rules to be enforced?

 

Clarify existing rules? While that certainly sounds good on the surface, those clarifications would be done to meet the interpretation of the committee or whatever as to what the vague current rules are. If effect creating new rules and standards.

 

I like Nevada Skye's approach for B-Western and Classic, it provides a method where by all of those in those categories are evaluated by the same person or people. Yes, folks could dress down after the pre-match inspection, but it's better than the way it works otherwise. From what I have seen costume related penalties are few and far between as it is left up to the posse marshal to evaluate and enforce, and they have better things to do. Also the violations are often brought forward by others at the match who may be in direct competition and leaves open the possibility of sour grapes and motives other than to just see the rules are enforced.

 

I think of some folks I shoot with who wear jeans, a work shirt, suspenders, boots, maybe a scarf, and cowboy hat. Take off the scarf and gunbelt and would they look horribly out of place at the grocery store? No, they wouldn't, not around here anyway. But in my opinion they look perfectly fine for cowboy matches as well.

 

I know that many really enjoy the costuming aspect of the sport, but if we as a group mandate strict enforcement of elaborate costuming I believe is will only serve to drive away not only new people, but also a lot of rank and file members, many of whom never shoot any match above maybe their own state match at the highest.

 

As I have said before, initiating discussion is a good thing, but I feel that the continued and regular harping on people who only dress the minimum is a very hurtful, devisive and damaging.

 

edit to add - but I guess that's how politics works, you repeatedly drive your point home prior to a vote or formal meeting. The sheer repetition meant to sway any on the fence and possibly make any appearance of a problem seem much worse than it actually is.

Howdy Grizzly Dave

The key word is common sense. My reference about taking off the gun rig is no way a reference to the minimally dress cowboy. The reference is to the shooter who costume is like the picture of the lady that Allie Mo posted. They make a mockery of the folks ( like you and me ) who try to look like a cowboy. The fact is there are those shooters who think they do what they want . Case in point, a shooter in CC saying that his screw knife is proper for the knife requirement. Yes rules can be interpreted in different ways but in this case this is not common sense.

 

Nawlins

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I shoot B-Western. I do not wear an embroidered shirt. My snap shirt is legal. Also, if I brought an embroidered shirt into my house my wife would have it cut up into scraps in about 3 seconds! All of my "costume" meets the rules of B-Western. Wrangler jeans(black)-scarf-spurs-cuffs-boots(worn with pants outside of boots)-Buscadero gun belt- and vest when cool enough.

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I shoot B-Western. I do not wear an embroidered shirt. My snap shirt is legal. Also, if I brought an embroidered shirt into my house my wife would have it cut up into scraps in about 3 seconds! All of my "costume" meets the rules of B-Western. Wrangler jeans(black)-scarf-spurs-cuffs-boots(worn with pants outside of boots)-Buscadero gun belt- and vest when cool enough.

Hi Jimmy,

 

I'd really need to see a photo, including boots and hat, to know if you meet the rules.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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its's hard to see the spurs but they are there. Have added wrist cuffs with stars since this was filmed.

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