Is there a call?

[Wyatt]

The stage starts with rifle at Port arms. The shooter comes to the line and prior to the start of the stage brings the rifle up and points it at the first target. With their thumb reaches up and cocks the hammer to check the sight picture. Then with their thumb lowers the hammer down and returns the rifle to the port arms position.

 

Is there a call and what is it?

[Krazy Kajun]

Could be a tricky one...did not cock the gun on the timer....if the shooter did and then decocked it without the TO's approval it would be a stage DQ. If the shooter came up to the line with the rifle cocked it would be a stage DQ due to not following loading table procedures.

 

While not on the clock....not sure but I would think it would be a stage DQ. This should be interesting.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Well.. here goes...

 

I'm thinkin' no call..

The rifle never left the shooters hands..

I know if the shooter stages it with hammer cocked and takes hands off it SDQ (reckon ya shouldn't ask how I know..)

but he didn't..

 

Rance

Thinkin' might be a form of shadow shootin' but don't know.. if you could call that or not..

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

SDQ. MT

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Well.. here goes...

 

I'm thinkin' no call..

The rifle never left the shooters hands..

I know if the shooter stages it with hammer cocked and takes hands off it SDQ (reckon ya shouldn't ask how I know..)

but he didn't..

 

Rance

Thinkin' might be a form of shadow shootin' but don't know.. if you could call that or not..

If you come from the loading table to the firing line with a cocked rifle, you'll get a SDQ,. Even if its still in your hand. MT

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

SDQ. MT

Why do you think it's a SDQ?

 

Stan

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I will defer to the OFFICIAL call from PaleWolf when he makes it, but right now I would go with no call.

Reasons: "Always read the rulebook from the contestants viewpoint."

"Always give the contestanr the benefit of the doubt"

The TO never starts the shooter in a faulted position.

The stage for a Dropped gun/sweep someone started at the LT, but the rules about de-cocking, etc. I don't think take effect until after the first round goes downrange.

The shooter did NOT leave the LT with a cocked firearm.

I've been wrong before, but that is my take until corrected.

 

 

PaleWolf says SDQ !!!!! That ends it.

[August West, SASS #45079]

He didn't move with a cocked gun, so the rules don't assess a SDQ -- yet....

 

If he's allowed to start, he has the advantage of easy levering on the first round -- a very slight advantage. Must reshoot.

 

If caught -- by the RO -- prior to the start, instruct him to lower the hammer.

 

No penalty as far as the rules go.

[Grizzly Dave]

RO 1 page 16

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the TO

to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

Was he on the firing line? Yes. Was he under the direct supervision of the TO? Unknown.

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

RO 1 page 16

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the TO

to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

Was he on the firing line? Yes. Was he under the direct supervision of the TO? Unknown.

 

 

Good job Grizz.

 

It does not sound like he got POSITIVE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT from the TO to decock.

 

The OP will have to answer that one.

 

But if he did not. Then SDQ per the above.

[MARSHAL W.E. BGood SASS 18429]

"...once a round has gone down range."

No rounds went down range, would seem to me Rule 7 doesn't apply.

[Bad Hand]

He cocked the hammer on an empty chamber, before the stage started, then let the hammer down on the same empty chamber. "Shadow shooting" perhaps?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Please show me the rule against shadow shooting?

 

It's pretty clear. Two options for lowering the hammer of a cocked firearm on the FIRING LINE.

 

Point gun down range and pull the trigger OR de-cock with the TO's approval.

 

OP doesn't indicate there was approval from the TO which would mean a SDQ.....

 

To me the "round down range" only pertains to de-cocking to avoid a penalty durin the course of fire. The next sentence stands on its own.

 

 

Stan - who like Happy Jack awaits the official response.

[Grizzly Dave]

 

RO 1 page 16

 

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the TO

to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

Was he on the firing line? Yes. Was he under the direct supervision of the TO? Unknown.

 

 

"...once a round has gone down range."

No rounds went down range, would seem to me Rule 7 doesn't apply.

 

Marshall, if there was a comma or a semi colon after 'down range' I would agree, but there are two sentences that each convey different meaning.

 

Edit - I like the way Stan puts it, the second sentence stands on it's own.

[Wyatt]

The TO was present but not involved. At the exact moment of the incident the TO was sneezing. And we all know it's impossible to sneeze with your eyes open.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I would consider that unsafe gun handling.

[El Sabre]

At the loading table, a shooter levers his rifle a few times to assure a load ready status, then lowers the hammer before loading.

 

At the unloading table, a shooter levers his rifle a few times to demonstrate it's clear, then lowers the hammer.

 

Here, with the rifle pointed at the target, the shooter cocks the hammer over an empty chamber, then lowers it. Why is this particularly unsafe?

[Flying W Ramrod]

Please show me the rule against shadow shooting?

 

It's pretty clear. Two options for lowering the hammer of a cocked firearm on the FIRING LINE.

 

Point gun down range and pull the trigger OR de-cock with the TO's approval.

 

OP doesn't indicate there was approval from the TO which would mean a SDQ.....

 

To me the "round down range" only pertains to de-cocking to avoid a penalty durin the course of fire. The next sentence stands on its own.

 

 

Stan - who like Happy Jack awaits the official response.

Probably meant dry firing

SASS ROI Page 20

30. Dry firing at the loading table is not allowed and will result in a Stage Disqualification. Dry firing is allowed only at designated safe areas. Dry firing is defined as the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally.

 

Note this is only at the loading table. Heard rumors that there may be a change in this to define a "designated safe area".

 

IMHO, no call. He did not cock the gun as no round was ever under the hammer, cocking suposes the gun in question is now in battery and may shoot.

I've had folks tell me that putting the rifle up to my shoulder to get the sight picture then, leaving the left arm where it was and bringing the right to at or below the waist, i.e. rotating the butt of the rifle down, wasn't proper port arms. Silly them.

[Grizzly Dave]

At the loading table, a shooter levers his rifle a few times to assure a load ready status, then lowers the hammer before loading.

 

At the unloading table, a shooter levers his rifle a few times to demonstrate it's clear, then lowers the hammer.

 

Here, with the rifle pointed at the target, the shooter cocks the hammer over an empty chamber, then lowers it. Why is this particularly unsafe?

 

Actually at the unloading table the rifle is levered and left open.

 

I have seen shooters come to the line, lever the rifle for the first time and out flies a live round.

[El Sabre]

Actually at the unloading table the rifle is levered and left open.

 

I have seen shooters come to the line, lever the rifle for the first time and out flies a live round.

 

Of course, you're right about the unloading procedure. Match was rained out yesterday, so it's been 8 days since I did it myself.

[Cat Brules]

The TO was present but not involved. At the exact moment of the incident the TO was sneezing. And we all know it's impossible to sneeze with your eyes open.

 

I didn't see that in the Handbook, ROI or ROII. NO CALL!!

 

Seriously.............the shooter did not lever or crank the rifle to put a live round in the chamber. He was apparently as the OP stated, trying to get a feel for his sight picture. BAD MOVE, in my opinion.

 

I feel he should have been strongly cautioned and warned by the TO, but not penalized for a single "offense." But having said that, the shooter comes to the firing line to shoot, not to fiddle with his weapons. I don't care one bit for what the shooter did here, because it was unexpected to the TO and may have been cause for safety concerns. However, I see no inherently unsafe act here. The range was hot and the rifle was pointed downrange the whole time. Clock had not started and no rounds were chambered or sent downrange. He gained no unfair advantage that would make sense, since he decocked the weapon onto the same empty chamber after cocking it. I don't believe this was unsafe gun handling, because it is essentially, the same "handling" that the shooter performs when shooting the stage. He was just not on the clock. Any call here, which I don't think is appropriate in a single-instance case, would be for "jackin' around in a no-jackin'-around zone" or better put, "not being under the supervision of the TO at all times" (since our TO was distracted).

 

I imagine he said his line, got the start cue and shot through the stage. I don't believe there was any mention that he was penalized by the TO or any of the spotters .. don't recall reading that.

 

I think it will be interesting to see how this is reasoned out.

[Blastmaster]

Griz gave the rule in post #9,

 

OP said RO was not involved in Post #15.

 

So shooter decocked not under direct supervision.

 

Edit, We don't know if he moved both feet with a cocked firearm, but that wasn't the original question.

[Wyatt]

So you are saying that if the RO was watching it would be okay

[Blastmaster]

So you are saying that if the RO was watching it would be okay

"... under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator. (This requires a positive indication/ acknowledgement from the TO

to the shooter)."

not just watching, but what it says above.

[Most Wanted]

Please show me the rule against shadow shooting?

 

It's pretty clear. Two options for lowering the hammer of a cocked firearm on the FIRING LINE.

 

Point gun down range and pull the trigger OR de-cock with the TO's approval.

 

OP doesn't indicate there was approval from the TO which would mean a SDQ.....

 

To me the "round down range" only pertains to de-cocking to avoid a penalty durin the course of fire. The next sentence stands on its own.

 

 

Stan - who like Happy Jack awaits the official response.

I think no call. He did point gun down range and pull trigger. The first half of sentence of rule says that is ok . If you replaced OR with AND then I could see a problem . Gun did not have round in chamber and was not decocked to avoid penalty . I also await PWB for I have been wrong before .

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Let me get this straight in my head. I leave the Loading Table, arriving on the firing line with my rifle cocked and receive a SDQ. No if, and, or buts.

 

But, if I arrive on the firing line with my rifle uncocked then cock it I don't get a SDQ.

 

Really?

[Krazy Kajun]

Wyatt....I think you and Jawbone, DiD, the rest of the Cracker Gang sit around after a match, drink some adult beverages and think of any possible off the wall scenario...write them all down...and then put them out on the Wire a little at a time

 

As I said in my first post (#2) I think it should be a Stage DQ....I'll stand by that call until PWB posts here and tells me I'm wrong...which certainly would NOT be the first time nor the last I'm sure.

 

Kajun

[crosscut hardy]

Stage DQ.

 

Once a shooter leaves LT and comes to FL with a cocked/half cock rifle he earns a Stage DQ.

 

....crosscut

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

A shooter leaving the loading table with a rifle cocked including the hammer in the safety notch receives a SDQ for moving with a cocked gun.

 

The OP indicated the shooter didn't cock the gun until he was in the starting position (no movement). Likewise he cocked it by pulling the hammer back not by levering the rifle(no live round brought under the hammer). This is a no call. Dropping the hammer on the empty chamber by pointing the rifle down range and pulling the trigger would likewise be a no call,

 

Under the conditions of the OP lowering the hammer with the TO watching would satisfy me as to "being under the supervision". Others may see it differently and call a SDQ. Shooter takes his medicine.

 

Few conditions are safer than a lever rifle or a single action revolver/pistol after the hammer has fallen by a trigger pull. Thus, no unsafe gun handling.

 

All that being said, it would take a rare set of circumstances for me to see the need to take a sight picture by pulling back the hammer prior to saying the starting line!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I had something similar happen at EOT. On one stage on the first pistol I drew and the pistol got caught up in my suspenders or something. No round went down range. The RO said restart. The gun was out of the holster and I wasn't sure if the hammer had got caught on something so I put it on half-cock, rotated the cylinder to make sure an empty would be under the hammer, cocked and lowered the hammer and reholstered. There were two members of the ROC on my posse. After 20 minutes of discussion the ruling was an SDQ. Permission to restart was determined not to be the same as permission to decock. In this case the shooter didn't have permission to decock so SDQ.

[Hawkshaw Fred SASS #36811]

Larson, I hate to hear this happened to you at EOT, and not to disagree with the ROC members but when you were told/given permission to 'restart' that would indicate to ME for you to do WHATEVER is necessary to restart the stage. IF you had NOT checked, and there had been a live round under the hammer, you would have been in a default position and THEN because of the live round under the hammer I see a REAL VIOLATION!

 

But from the OP this was not the case---all was well, he came to the firing line with ALL guns in proper configuration. He DID NOT move with a cocked gun, nor did he put a round under the hammer. He THEN cocked THE HAMMER not the lever on an empty chamber. The OP does not state that he moved with a gun cocked or uncocked and he didn't come from the loading table with it cocked. I don't know that I would condone this action I see no violation, but stand ready to be shown wrong.

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

Larson,

This sounds like a situation of over thinking. It seems ridicules that given permission to reshoot the stage did not include permission to uncock the gun.

Johmmy M

[SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402]

I will put this under shadow shooting which is not allowed on the fireing line.

also I feel there is a difference between lowering the hammer and droping the hammer with the trigger

what is the character of the shooter. this sounds like a I will do it my way

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I will put this under shadow shooting which is not allowed on the fireing line.

also I feel there is a difference between lowering the hammer and droping the hammer with the trigger

what is the character of the shooter. this sounds like a I will do it my way

Where in the rules does it state that Shadow Shooting is illegal...Don't think it's there.

 

Phantom

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Probably meant dry firing

SASS ROI Page 20

30. Dry firing at the loading table is not allowed and will result in a Stage Disqualification. Dry firing is allowed only at designated safe areas. Dry firing is defined as the act of bringing the gun into a shooting position, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally.

 

Note this is only at the loading table. Heard rumors that there may be a change in this to define a "designated safe area".

 

IMHO, no call. He did not cock the gun as no round was ever under the hammer, cocking suposes the gun in question is now in battery and may shoot.

I've had folks tell me that putting the rifle up to my shoulder to get the sight picture then, leaving the left arm where it was and bringing the right to at or below the waist, i.e. rotating the butt of the rifle down, wasn't proper port arms. Silly them.

I'll have to disagree with your definition of cocked......If the hammer is being held back by the sear I would say it is cocked.....How it got to that state is irrelevant.

 

Based on the OP.....the firearm was COCKED on the firing line.......the shooter lowered the hammer with his thumb.....

 

2 Options for de-cocking a firearm from Page 16 of the RO1.....as Grizz posted above......

 

1. Point gun down range and pull trigger......Did the shooter do this? NO

2. Lower the hammer AFTER receiving positive indictation/acknowledgement from the the TO.......Did the shooter do this? NO

 

I don't see how it can be anything other than SDQ based on the rules as written.......

 

Stan

 

PS.....South Pacific can you show us in the rule book where shadow shooting is not allowed and the penalty for such actions?