Long Range Rifle Caliber Lever Action Rifle

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

A friend wants to get into long range cowboy shooting and wants to purchase the best gun for long range lever action rifle caliber competition. I have a Marlin 1895 in 45-70, which if ammo is properly produced will hold 10 in the magazine. It was slicked up by Longhunter to run almost as well as a Longhunter 1894 main match rifle. I believe 10 rounds in the mag are needed since long range SASS matches are timed and you do not want to add the time to load while shooting and many many matches are scored on 10 shots. Those shooters that have magazines that only hold 6 or 8 many times have to load on the clock. What I do not like about the Marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70 in my gun is the recoil. I told him to find a rifle in a lower recoil caliber like 30-30 or 38-55 that will still hold 10 in the magazine. Most of the 38-55s have slightly shorter barrels and consequently shorter mag tubes. He is having difficulty finding such a rifle. Recommendations?

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

A friend wants to get into long range cowboy shooting and wants to purchase the best gun for long range lever action rifle caliber competition. I have a Marlin 1895 in 45-70, which if ammo is properly produced will hold 10 in the magazine. It was slicked up by Longhunter to run almost as well as a Longhunter 1894 main match rifle. I believe 10 rounds in the mag are needed since long range SASS matches are timed and you do not want to add the time to load while shooting and many many matches are scored on 10 shots. Those shooters that have magazines that only hold 6 or 8 many times have to load on the clock. What I do not like about the Marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70 in my gun is the recoil. I told him to find a rifle in a lower recoil caliber like 30-30 or 38-55 that will still hold 10 in the magazine. Most of the 38-55s have slightly shorter barrels and consequently shorter mag tubes. He is having difficulty finding such a rifle. Recommendations?

You can occasionally find a Marlin Cowboy in 38-55 on GB but they are pricey. Lot of people just find reasonably priced Winchester commemoratives in 30-30 or 38-55 with 24 in barrels. The Legendary Frontiersman comes to mind. Your friend might try a slip on recoil pad for that 45-70 as they are fine rifles and shooters.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

You can occasionally find a Marlin Cowboy in 38-55 on GB but they are pricey. Lot of people just find reasonably priced Winchester commemoratives in 30-30 or 38-55 with 24 in barrels. The Legendary Frontiersman comes to mind. Your friend might try a slip on recoil pad for that 45-70 as they are fine rifles and shooters.

Maybe I was not clear, the priorities are 10 in the magazine and less recoil. Both 30-30 and 38-55 are over 2.5 inches OAL and ten won't fit in a 24 inch mag tube.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

From experience, most Winchester Commemoratives in 38-55,(Legendary Frontiersman), Have oversize bores. I have seen them with bores up to .382. This requires special bullets, usually having the chambers neck reamed and sometimes special dies. For reloaders casting their own bullets it means special molds, and sizing dies.

 

It's all possible, but a major PITA to get all the bases covered to make these rifles perform with good accuracy. Once you get everything adjusted for the oversize bore, they do perform well.

 

RBK

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Maybe I was not clear, the priorities are 10 in the magazine and less recoil. Both 30-30 and 38-55 are over 2.5 inches OAL and ten won't fit in a 24 inch mag tube.

 

Whoops!

[Flying W Ramrod]

First and foremost, go to a club that runs long range like it's supposed to be. NOT TIMED.

At Kings River Regulators, we have a bank of six or so shooters. The first one fires a ranging shot, then the second, then the third until all have shot 1, then a second, then a third if required. Once ranging is done, the first shooter fires one shot on target, followed by the second etc until all have fired one shot, then repeated for 10 shots. It takes less time to run six shooters through than one at a time and all are happy. It let's the BP shooters clean and wipe their bores after each shot and allows all the chance to change elevations.

Now that being said, KRR's long range is 400 and 600 yards, it was moved in from 600 and 800 as very few could hit the 800yard target.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

First and foremost, go to a club that runs long range like it's supposed to be. NOT TIMED.

At Kings River Regulators, we have a bank of six or so shooters. The first one fires a ranging shot, then the second, then the third until all have shot 1, then a second, then a third if required. Once ranging is done, the first shooter fires one shot on target, followed by the second etc until all have fired one shot, then repeated for 10 shots. It takes less time to run six shooters through than one at a time and all are happy. It let's the BP shooters clean and wipe their bores after each shot and allows all the chance to change elevations.

Now that being said, KRR's long range is 400 and 600 yards, it was moved in from 600 and 800 as very few could hit the 800yard target.

I doubt if these shooters shooting at 400 to 600 or 800 yards are using lever action rifles, which is the subject of this thread.

[Flying W Ramrod]

I doubt if these shooters shooting at 400 to 600 or 800 yards are using lever action rifles, which is the subject of this thread.

Au Contrar mon ami, I shoot using a lever 38-55 and a 45-70 Buff Classic, the wife shoots 40-65 rolling block. You'll see lots of levers at our match.

[Flying W Ramrod]

OBTW, the long range at Western States in Fernley is also shot with lever at 300 and 400, the levers are loaded single shot however. Don't know why. But it's a hit or miss match not timed either.

[Tater Head]

For our long range rifle matches we ( http://www.kansascas.com/free_state_rangers.htm ) shoot big bore lever guns starting a 200 yards, 300, and finish at 400. We shoot six people at a time. Starting at the left of the line and go to the right. We shoot two spotter shots at each range and then five for score. We use bullseyes at the 400 yard target to break ties. Our 400 yard target is 30" X 30" sheet of steel with a 10" bull. It's not uncommom for several of the six competitors to shoot prefect scores with 1-3 bullseyes. Our matches are not timed. We load single shot or from the magizine. Shooters choice.

Most of our regular shooters use 45-70 as the caliber of choice. A fair amount shoot 38-55's, and a few 30-30's.

 

Tater

[Badlands Beady]

For our long range rifle matches we ( http://www.kansascas.com/free_state_rangers.htm ) shoot big bore lever guns starting a 200 yards, 300, and finish at 400. We shoot six people at a time.

 

Must - not - say - it.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

"First and foremost, go to a club that runs long range like it's supposed to be. NOT TIMED.

At Kings River Regulators, we have a bank of six or so shooters. The first one fires a ranging shot, then the second, then the third until all have shot 1, then a second, then a third if required. Once ranging is done, the first shooter fires one shot on target, followed by the second etc until all have fired one shot, then repeated for 10 shots. It takes less time to run six shooters through than one at a time and all are happy. It let's the BP shooters clean and wipe their bores after each shot and allows all the chance to change elevations.

Now that being said, KRR's long range is 400 and 600 yards, it was moved in from 600 and 800 as very few could hit the 800yard target."

 

In the case of a tie, do the shooters continue shooting until someone misses or what? Also, it would depend on what the actual requirements are at the places this shooter anticipates competing at. Many long range matches limit the lever guns to 200 to 250 yards and are timed. If in his region the matches are timed and rounds might have to be loaded on the clock, the number of rounds a rifle holds will be an issue. Smokin Gator

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

For our long range rifle matches we ( http://www.kansascas.com/free_state_rangers.htm ) shoot big bore lever guns starting a 200 yards, 300, and finish at 400. We shoot six people at a time. Starting at the left of the line and go to the right. We shoot two spotter shots at each range and then five for score. We use bullseyes at the 400 yard target to break ties. Our 400 yard target is 30" X 30" sheet of steel with a 10" bull. It's not uncommom for several of the six competitors to shoot prefect scores with 1-3 bullseyes. Our matches are not timed. We load single shot or from the magizine. Shooters choice.

Most of our regular shooters use 45-70 as the caliber of choice. A fair amount shoot 38-55's, and a few 30-30's.

 

Tater

Dang, I thought most of the matches, we shoot at steel targets not people. Back to the subject of the thread, which rifle holds ten rounds of either 30-30 or 38-55 in the magazine? Most of the long range matches in our neck of the woods, shooter shoots by him or herself for 10 rounds. Ties in number of hits are broken by shortest time. WR is a good example.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I doubt if these shooters shooting at 400 to 600 or 800 yards are using lever action rifles, which is the subject of this thread.

 

GCK,

 

You are answering your own questions by not letting people give advice? NOW GO RELINE YOUR BIG BORE TO SOMETHING SMALLER OR LOAD SOME 300 GRAINERS WITH TRAILBOSS!! Heck 300 grainers will reach several hundred yards and don't have much recoil anyway regardless of the propellant.

 

We sometimes shoot our buffalo targets with lever guns and a Marlin will single load pretty darn fast. Hits count more than speed so fast accuracy is the ticket. Wow now my headband is getting tight

 

Good Luck!!

[Flying W Ramrod]

"First and foremost, go to a club that runs long range like it's supposed to be. NOT TIMED.

At Kings River Regulators, we have a bank of six or so shooters. The first one fires a ranging shot, then the second, then the third until all have shot 1, then a second, then a third if required. Once ranging is done, the first shooter fires one shot on target, followed by the second etc until all have fired one shot, then repeated for 10 shots. It takes less time to run six shooters through than one at a time and all are happy. It let's the BP shooters clean and wipe their bores after each shot and allows all the chance to change elevations.

Now that being said, KRR's long range is 400 and 600 yards, it was moved in from 600 and 800 as very few could hit the 800yard target."

 

In the case of a tie, do the shooters continue shooting until someone misses or what? Also, it would depend on what the actual requirements are at the places this shooter anticipates competing at. Many long range matches limit the lever guns to 200 to 250 yards and are timed. If in his region the matches are timed and rounds might have to be loaded on the clock, the number of rounds a rifle holds will be an issue. Smokin Gator

Depends on the match as far as ties go. Some of the shooters who tie want to shoot off, some want to flip a coin, some opt to move to the Quigley Bucket to settle ties(200yd off hand, same gun used in Long Range), some want to move back to the 800 yard line to break the tie. Yep, we also have 800 and 1000 yard targets if we want them.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

All timed the long range matches I've been to were only five rounds. The longest was 300 yards at a buffalo. I like the smaller calibers, Win 1894 25-35, and Marlin in 32-40. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I think the '76 rifle holds ten rounds.

[Trailrider #896]

Since you have considered the .30-30 (apart from magazine cartridge capacity), I gather you can choose BP or smokeless powder. The choices that have been mentioned all present some loading tweaks which would not be present with the .45-70 in either original or modern rifles. As was posted, you can reduce the recoil somewhat by using 300 gr. bullets in that cartridge. OTOH, 300 gr. bullets won't carry quite as well at 500+ yds. Also, IMHO, the recoil from a .30-30 is much sharper than the push generated by a .45-70. As was also suggested, a recoil pad or using a shotgun-style buttstock will help dramatically over a crescent buttplate.

 

(If I had a choice between a .30-30 and something else, I'd go for a .33 WCF. Problem there is that (1) they are available only in a original M1886 Winchester, and (2)Hornady discontinued the beautiful 200 gr JFSP .338" dia. bullets. I used to compete in long range silhouette offhand rifle shooting against .30-30's, and I felt like I was cheating with that round! With the 200 gr. bullet at 2250 ft/sec., even 200 yd rams were knocked down solidly, and 25 yd chickens went flying off the support curb!)

 

But, as I said, the .45-70 will be the easiest if you can find a magazine that's long enough.

 

Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to all! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[Charlie Whiskers]

At our long range shoot as a side match for the State shoot,we do time it.Only reason for timing is if there's a tie.Our targets start at 80 yds and go out to 500.A shooter will get as many sight in's as needed,then start shooting for score til all targets have been engaged.

[Clyde Henry 7046]

(If I had a choice between a .30-30 and something else, I'd go for a .33 WCF. Problem there is that (1) they are available only in a original M1886 Winchester, and (2)Hornady discontinued the beautiful 200 gr JFSP .338" dia. bullets. I used to compete in long range silhouette offhand rifle shooting against .30-30's, and I felt like I was cheating with that round! With the 200 gr. bullet at 2250 ft/sec., even 200 yd rams were knocked down solidly, and 25 yd chickens went flying off the support curb!)

 

 

 

You might want to check with SASS HQ about the 33WFC for use in long range. It came out very late in the 86 life span, and is normally thgought of as a smokeless powder round.

[John Boy]

A friend wants to get into long range cowboy shooting and wants to purchase the best gun for long range lever action rifle caliber competition.

Kid, let's put a stake in the ground ... what is the maximum distance for this long range lever action rifle caliber competition?

* NRA Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette competition is out to 200 meters with 5 rounds tube fed, shot in 2 minutes at a bank of 5 silhouettes. This NRA Match is the longest distance for levers

* SASS match lever action distances vary, but not over 200 or possibly 300 yds for levers and usually are shot at one large silhouette for 5 shots (hits & time for record). Past that distance single shot rifles are used in larger calibers

 

I use a Winchester 30-30 with a Williams peep and 180gr bullets for both the NRA and our club's 200 yd lever matches

 

If I had to shoot a SASS match for 10 shots, I'd use my '60 Henry in 45 Colt with 300 gr bullets. I know the rifle & the load will make it to 500 meters

[Big Jake1001]

GCK; The answer to your question is so simple. A Winchester 30-30 has a 26 inch barrel, not 24 as many said. I have one made in 1906 and it holds 10 rounds of ammo. Winchester model 1894 came with 26 inch barrels until 1926-27 when they were discontinued.

 

The Commemrotives also had 26 inch barrels, along with short rifles, 20 inch barrels. Buffalo Bills (1968) has the most made and are still reasonable to buy. People sometime confuse Winchester 1892's 20 and 24 inch barrels with Winchester 1894s 26 inch barrels because they are not main match rifles.

 

Hope this helps your friend make his choice.

 

Big Jake

[Clyde Henry 7046]

Kid, let's put a stake in the ground ... what is the maximum distance for this long range lever action rifle caliber competition?

* NRA Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette competition is out to 200 meters with 5 rounds tube fed, shot in 2 minutes at a bank of 5 silhouettes. This NRA Match is the longest distance for levers

* SASS match lever action distances vary, but not over 200 or possibly 300 yds for levers and usually are shot at one large silhouette for 5 shots (hits & time for record). Past that distance single shot rifles are used in larger calibers

 

I use a Winchester 30-30 with a Williams peep and 180gr bullets for both the NRA and our club's 200 yd lever matches

 

If I had to shoot a SASS match for 10 shots, I'd use my '60 Henry in 45 Colt with 300 gr bullets. I know the rifle & the load will make it to 500 meters

 

 

I have shot several lever action RIFLE SASS matches where the gongs were out pass 500yrs. The larger caliber rifle cartridges with heavy bullets work better at longer ranges than the smaller ones. It can be done with the small rounds but its a bit more risky. The larger heavier around works well at the short ranges, but they have more recoil.

 

45 colt is not a RIFLE cartridge round as far as SASS lever action RIFLE matches are concerned, check the rules.

[Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727]

GCK

 

At our long range lever action events we sho0t 2 five shot groups. Both groups are timed with total time being arrived at by adding the 2 groups together.

 

I have a Marlin 45-70 with full length mag tube. It only holds nine even with a 292 grain bullet. How short are your rounds to get it to hold 10?

 

Thanks,

Marlin

[August West, SASS #45079]

I have a Marlin 1895 in 45-70, which if ammo is properly produced will hold 10 in the magazine.

 

Sir, could you elaborate on the ammo part of that statement. Thank you.

[Trailrider #896]

(If I had a choice between a .30-30 and something else, I'd go for a .33 WCF. Problem there is that (1) they are available only in a original M1886 Winchester, and (2)Hornady discontinued the beautiful 200 gr JFSP .338" dia. bullets. I used to compete in long range silhouette offhand rifle shooting against .30-30's, and I felt like I was cheating with that round! With the 200 gr. bullet at 2250 ft/sec., even 200 yd rams were knocked down solidly, and 25 yd chickens went flying off the support curb!)

 

 

 

You might want to check with SASS HQ about the 33WFC for use in long range. It came out very late in the 86 life span, and is normally thgought of as a smokeless powder round.

 

It is true that the .33 WCF came out in 1903. Was the .30-30 originally loaded with BP? I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that the .32 Winchester Special was brought out to facilitate reloading with BP to give ballistics similar to the .30-30. Would appreciate correction if appropriate.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

GCK

 

At our long range lever action events we sho0t 2 five shot groups. Both groups are timed with total time being arrived at by adding the 2 groups together.

 

I have a Marlin 45-70 with full length mag tube. It only holds nine even with a 292 grain bullet. How short are your rounds to get it to hold 10?

 

Thanks,

Marlin

 

My 1895 was worked on by Longhunter. He shortened the spring as much as possible along with lots of other work to make it work almost as well as a main match 1894. I use a special bullet made by Meister just for lever action rifles, that seems to have the crimp closer to the flat top of the bullet. I also check the brass length and if it has stretched, I trim it back to specs. With those changes my 1895 Marlin will hold 10 45-70 rounds in the magazine. I know another shooter that does it differently, he trims off about .1 inch off of each piece of 45-70 brass and this allows him to load 10, but I did not have to do that.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

It is true that the .33 WCF came out in 1903. Was the .30-30 originally loaded with BP? I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that the .32 Winchester Special was brought out to facilitate reloading with BP to give ballistics similar to the .30-30. Would appreciate correction if appropriate.

 

The 30-30 was originally a smokeless round, and has the distinction of being the first smokeless sporting cartridge. They stuck with the older style nomenclature of caliber & powder charge, like BP loadings, because it was 30 caliber and used 30 grains of the new DuPont smokeless powder.

 

Regarding the 32 Winchester Special, from Winchester's 1916 catalog:

"The .32 Winchester Special cartridge, which we have perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 Army."

 

Hope this helps.

[John Boy]

Trailrider, if you are inclined, I have a Chris Hodgdon approved Triple 7 powder charge for the 30-30. It will rip your face off - worse than shooting a 12ga slug gun. But very accurate!

[Griff]

Maybe I was not clear, the priorities are 10 in the magazine and less recoil. Both 30-30 and 38-55 are over 2.5 inches OAL and ten won't fit in a 24 inch mag tube.

But, the .30-30 Win commemoratives are 26" barrels, and I was under the impression that the Marlin Cowboy in .38-55 was also. I can get 10 in my .30-30 Winchester. (150 grain boolits). But, at ranges beyond 200 yards, the .30-30 is sometimes at a disadvantage in windy conditions.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Almost all of the commemoratives are 20" or 24" barrels, as is the 336CB (24").

 

Out of seventy one versions listed HERE, only six were available with 26" barrels. Four are listed with 16" barrels, and all the rest are 20" or 24".

[Snakebite]

Hello John Boy.... what in the world are you doing in this discussion.... every one who knows you also knows that YOU don't know anything about Long Range Shooting.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Snakebite

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

I think the '76 rifle holds ten rounds.

 

 

My 45-75 76 does and I have used it as my main match gun in Monty Walsh shoots. It is, by far my favorite main match gun. There is no doubt if you hit the target or not! I would shoot it at every match if it were allowed.

 

As far as the original question goes, you can do some things with lighter loads and you need to make sure that you are holding the rifle correctly to take the recoil (some folks just don't know how to do this), but big bore long range guns are going to have more recoil than pistol caliber rifles. If that bothers you too much, then maybe long range is not your game.

[John Boy]

Hello John Boy.... what in the world are you doing in this discussion.... every one who knows you also knows that YOU don't know anything about Long Range Shooting.

Snakebite, just trying to be helpful! Heck, the SASS "Long Ranges" are usually 100 - 200 or 300 yards. These are the distances that I sight my rifles in at!

 

Happy New Year, Pardner

[Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859]

For our long range rifle matches we ( http://www.kansascas.com/free_state_rangers.htm ) shoot big bore lever guns starting a 200 yards, 300, and finish at 400. We shoot six people at a time. Tater

 

How are the six people to be shot chosen? Inquiring minds want to know! Right Beady?