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Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880

Agenda Item #2, you have got to be kidding me!

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I want every shooter in their 20's, 30's or 40's who thinks they need a rule to protect them from "cherry-picking" middle-aged and senior citizens to step up and identify himself or herself.

 

Agenda item #2, if passed, would prevent those of us who seek out competition from doing so if it meant dropping to a lower "age-based" category. Those who know me know that I move around amongst the categories a lot. Hopefully, those who know me also know that I do so for more entertainment and to find more competition and not to find a weak category. I'm 64, and usually shoot Classic Cowboy or FCD. Oftentimes I show up at a match and find that there isn't anyone else shooting Classic or FCD so I enter something else. Thus, I have found myself shooting bp and cap and ball guns in Duelist since no one else was shooting Frontiersman or FCD that day. Frequently, I shoot my Classic Cowboy guns in Duelist if no one else is shooting CC.

 

As I said, I'm 64, and while I have some age-related physical issues, I'm a lot better off than some others my age. Some of those shooters NEED to shoot a senior category. I, fortunately, can still compete with younger shooters.

 

When I shoot Duelist, I enter Duelist even if Senior Duelist is offered. Senior Duelist is often populated by shooters who would be ecstatic to break 40 seconds, I'm usually in the 25-27 second range shooting my CC guns, so I enter Duelist. Cherry Picking?-no way since my good friend Doc Eels shoots Duelist around here and is usually in the high teens on a 10-10-4. I like the idea of allowing those who don't have the same speed as I have to compete against one another without forcing me to beat up on them. I'd rather finish second or third in Duelist than win Senior Duelist by 10-15 seconds a stage-I have boxes of awards, I don't really need more. Forcing me to stay in a category with no one that can compete with me would be my idea of hell.

 

I've shot Gunfighter a few times and I'm not that good at it, but I have decided when I do enter Gunfighter in the future, I won't enter Senior Gunfighter.

 

I have seen the type of behavior that some seem so upset over. I've seen a man in his 60's enter and win Cowboy since no one else was in it-does this mean we need a new rule? I think dead silence by the audience when this type of person wins an award would be a better response than a new rule, if any response is even needed. On the other hand, if it makes that shooter feel better-who cares?

 

Buckeroos and young guns are protected from people dropping down in age and I think that's enough. I can't think of anything more pitiful than a shooter in his/her 30's or whatever asking for protection from us old farts.

 

And what would come next? If someone decides to switch to a two-handed category from Duelist, Gunfighter or whatever because they perceive that category as weaker at a given match, isn't that "cherry-picking" as well? Will the rule makers fashion a new rule to catch that? Perhaps everyone should be required to write down their category in a secret ballot type proceeding so they can't "pick their category wisely?" Will we also say that once one has picked their category they can't change before the match? Gotta bust those cherry-pickers you know.

 

I'm a little embarrassed for those who consistently seek out weaker competition but that's no basis for this proposed rule.

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Guest Dusty Feller, SASS #20010L

I find that I am in total agreement with Mr. Buffalo Dick!

 

Nuff said!

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so....

you acknowledge it happens and are embarrassed for those who do it, but dont see any reason to stop it.

you acknowledge that people like to win awards but you dont think that people who have only one age category should have the same chance at them as people who qualify for five age groups.

you acknowledge that at 64 youre well above average as a shooter but malign the young uns for asking for a chance to play and have a chance to be recognized amongst people their age.

you acknowledge that your enjoyment is predicated on who or how many people are shooting your category and then malign those who look to see who theyre shooting against.

its really hard to understand where youre coming from.

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If you are going to limit a young person from competing with older competers in an aged based catagory system. Then why would you want to give an older person the oppertunity to compete with younger aged based catagorys. What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Maybe the whole aged based system needs to be eliminated?

Lefty

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If you are going to limit a young person from competing with older competers in an aged based catagory system. Then why would you want to give an older person the oppertunity to compete with younger aged based catagorys. What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Maybe the whole aged based system needs to be eliminated?

Lefty

 

Yup

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I'm only 55, but I don't shoot aged based categories. Never shot in 49'er, Mostly FCD or Duelist. I'm not saying get rid of aged based categories but I don't believe in them for myself. Maybe if I am still doing this when I am 70 I will consider them. If you don't like the proposed rule then don't shoot in age based categories and it won't affect you, problem solved.

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If you are going to limit a young person from competing with older competers in an aged based catagory system. Then why would you want to give an older person the oppertunity to compete with younger aged based catagorys. What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Maybe the whole aged based system needs to be eliminated?

Lefty

:lol::lol:DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

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What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Lefty

 

 

If ya let the old ones bump up and the old ones bump down, what good is age based categories anyways? Too dang much bumping for the old folks. All this age crap is good for nothing anyways. Maybe 60 plus or so, like it used to be.

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Buffalo,

 

So you are saying that it is ok for someone to not shoot their age catagory because they can not beat the others in the catagory to shoot with the younger pwople that they know that they can beat! And to do this when they get to the match and see who they are shooting against to change their age catagory to a different one so they can win it.

 

I think that is wrong and I am tired of seeing people do this.

 

Painted Filly

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You know … you would think that if many of the folks who supported the proposal to lock age categories on both ends … would just say so … and support moving on to creating a replacement category where shooters of any age could compete if they chose to do so … (which is exactly what Cowboy is at this time … per the rules … and a concept that was not new even before the last changes were implemented) … most might walk away from this happy (or suitably appeased) … (it could happen …).

 

Trying to form a lynch mob to make people who are playing by the (current) rules look like bad guys as justification for the change probably isn’t necessary (I bet most of the older shooters don’t even care).

 

I hope if they “do” close the categories up on both ends that those younger categories become better populated.

 

Anyhow … ask for what you want … say things like “we want our own category too!!” (get signs printed) …

Would be cool … everyone could shoot in their own age group category or come out and play in the “non-age restrictive” category (come out and play … or not).

 

IMHO anyhow …

Old person ...

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Gene Autry's Code of Honor

 

A cowboy never takes unfair advantage - even of an enemy.

===========================

 

Wild Bill Hickock Deputy Marshal's Code of Conduct

 

I will protect the weak and help them

===================================================

Roy Rogers Riders Club Rules

 

Protect the weak and help them.

===============================================

Texas Rangers "Deputy Ranger" Oath

 

Never Take Unfair Advantage.

=================================================

Code of the West

(from "Cowboy Ethics: What Wall Street Can Learn from the Code of the West" by James P. Owen)

 

 

Be tough, but fair.

 

Know where to draw the line.

 

==============================

 

The above quotes come to mind.

 

Granted, the percentage of cherry pickers is small but as someone on another thread posted, they are caustic.

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So,if ya sign up in age based catagory, they are gonna check your ID when? As ya pick up your shooters package, or when ya go to collect your award and someones protests ya on account of your age and ya have to prove it or lose the award?

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I would be agreeable to locking in a person's age to a category. That being said, 49'er is a REALLY tough category around here!!!

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I agree with Buffy. if yule read his post carefully he's not for "cherry pickers", but he's for the shooter who wants a challenge.

 

wut fun is it to win iffn no one else is there,,not much...

 

iffn the shoot doesn't have enuff yunguns then throw them in with the older ones...that easy.

 

leave this one alone

 

 

cheyenne

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Bramble,

 

I think 49r is a tough catagory everywhere! :) But may help if people had to shoot their catagory. have you ever looked to see how many are 49ers? You may be surprised.

 

Painted Filly

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If you are going to limit a young person from competing with older competers in an aged based catagory system. Then why would you want to give an older person the oppertunity to compete with younger aged based catagorys. What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Maybe the whole aged based system needs to be eliminated? Smartest thing I've heard all day :D

Lefty

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Can we jump over into the ladies category if the men are too fast?

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The Buckaroos & oldsters are age-based, therefore restricted. The rest of the categories are OPEN, and ought to Stay that way! I don't want to be told that I may no longer choose my category once I reach a certain age.

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I agree with you Buffy. I'm as surprised as you are. But, the annual "revise the rules" folks are most happy when they have something to cuss and discuss. That's good because it keeps a whole lot of people busy through the winter and helps the Las Vegas economy.

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Hey Buff, I agree with you and I know that you do switch categories for more competition and not to cherry pick. I often move into different categories, but I usually shoot in my age category. Sr., SrGF and Sr Duelist, but I will be a Silver Senior in a couple of weeks which means to shoot GF or Duelist category, I can still shoot in either or in Sr. GF or Sr D, but (with the rule change) I wouldn't be able to shoot in Senior.

 

I see the problem at monthly shoots when I am the only one in a category and that is when I do like Buffy and move to another category. At a monthly when you only have between 30 and 45 shooters, it is common to have smaller categories. There are few that would be in the Silver Senior category at our club.....so if the rule changes I guess I'll just have to move to CC or B western, no wait, we don't have many of those either, so tell me again....Why do we want to force people to shoot in their age group.

 

I, for one, enjoy watching a younger shooter whoop an older shooter or visa versa.....this is a game.....haven't won any cash or cars yet....

 

I agree with CC....leave it alone.

 

KK

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Can we jump over into the ladies category if the men are too fast?

 

Wouldn't work in these parts! We whopped by the women on a regular basis, and some of them do it bare footed. :blush::lol:

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It looks like Cheyenne Culpepper, Max Montana, Korrupt Karl and perhaps a couple of others get what I am saying.

 

One problem is the fact that there is a huge difference in skill level in all of the age ranges and age is not necessarily the best way to classify shooters. Over the years I have seen people suggest other methods for grouping shooters of comparable skills, but those suggestions have never gone anywhere.

 

I have been surprised by the rather passionate support of this item by some people for whom I have the greatest respect-Deuce Stevens comes to mind. I wonder if this is a particularly egregious problem where they shoot-I don't really see it as such around here. I just hate to see a new rule that would punish people seeking more competition and who are not the "cherry-pickers."

 

Actually, I have tried to diplomatically suggest to some of my faster shooting friends shooting senior duelist, senior gunfighter etc. that they should consider shooting the non-senior version of their category and leave the senior versions to those shooters to whom age has been less kind.

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BD-

 

I'm the same age as you. In BP we have no age breakouts, and I like it that way. Most of my fellow BP shooters agree. When they add FCGF, it will only be ONE more catagory, not seven or eight.

 

Leave it alone or get rid of the age bias. At the rate we're going, there will be a catagory for every birthday!

 

CR

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Howdy BD,

I understand what your saying and I do go to a lower category to find some completive shooters ( I mainly shoot FC) and cherry picking may not be an issue where you shoot, but I have seen it at all the big shoots that I have been too so far, it really sticks out when you get to the shoot, look at the shooters list and then the day it starts go back and look and all you can say is what the hell is that person shooting there for, then look at their original category and it sticks out like a sore thumb, so basically a few have ruined it for the many IMHO.

 

KK

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Howdy BD,

I understand what your saying and I do go to a lower category to find some completive shooters ( I mainly shoot FC) and cherry picking may not be an issue where you shoot, but I have seen it at all the big shoots that I have been too so far, it really sticks out when you get to the shoot, look at the shooters list and then the day it starts go back and look and all you can say is what the hell is that person shooting there for, then look at their original category and it sticks out like a sore thumb, so basically a few have ruined it for the many IMHO.

 

KK

 

Keying off the few ruining it for the many.. So this rule ensures that the few win by locking everyone into the age group? It seems like the "solution" may be as bad or worse than the problem.

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Ask yourself this: Does the current rule afford an advantage to one group over another? The answer is yes, it does. Reverse discrimination is as bad or worse than regular discrimination and here we have older shooters "protected" from younger shooters, but then allowed to jump on the younger shooters when they think it'll be advantageous. It just ain't right.

 

As an observation, it seems the older shooters like the rule as is and the younger shooters don't think it's fair. Hmmm.

 

And as far as being scared of being whooped, I can tell you that ain't it at all. It's about what's right.

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Ask yourself this: Does the current rule afford an advantage to one group over another? The answer is yes, it does. Reverse discrimination is as bad or worse than regular discrimination and here we have older shooters "protected" from younger shooters, but then allowed to jump on the younger shooters when they think it'll be advantageous. It just ain't right.

 

As an observation, it seems the older shooters like the rule as is and the younger shooters don't think it's fair. Hmmm.

 

And as far as being scared of being whooped, I can tell you that ain't it at all. It's about what's right.

 

I could not agree more with Possum Skinner. How about the same standard for all shooters regardless of age? This proposal doesn't require you to shoot only your age category. Duelist, GF, B-Western, Classic Cowboy, FC, FCD, Frontiersman are all still available for those looking for additional competition.

 

Timber Jack

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Well, you really can't please all the people all the time. We have shooters who relish competition, and we have shooters who relish prizes...and shooters who just relish shooting in Cowboy dress. I shoot B-Western because my alias is a TV western character, and I pay no attention whatsoever to who or how many others sign up in that category. I guess many have thought of me as a 'cherry picker' when I get an uncontested 'first place ' in BW, but I can't concern myself with what others think. If we really want competition though, we should go with a 'bracket' system like drag racing clubs do, but then someone will complain that the system rewards consistency over raw speed. Or maybe we just split into Mens and Ladies for scoring the match and just have categories like CC and BW for the costume contests!

 

Now that I've spouted my usual nonsense I'll agree with what Possum Skinner said. Giving preferential treatment to any one group seems rather unsportsmanlike in principle.

 

Hi-Yo and Awwwwaaaaayyyyy,

TMM

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Ask yourself this: Does the current rule afford an advantage to one group over another? The answer is yes, it does. Reverse discrimination is as bad or worse than regular discrimination and here we have older shooters "protected" from younger shooters, but then allowed to jump on the younger shooters when they think it'll be advantageous. It just ain't right.

 

As an observation, it seems the older shooters like the rule as is and the younger shooters don't think it's fair. Hmmm.

 

And as far as being scared of being whooped, I can tell you that ain't it at all. It's about what's right.

 

 

When ya get old, then ya might unnerstand. I haven't seen any younguns griping about seniors getting a discount at various stores or resturaunts. Growing old has it's advantages, and one of em is lissenin to the younguns complain about us. :lol::lol:

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I want every shooter in their 20's, 30's or 40's who thinks they need a rule to protect them from "cherry-picking" middle-aged and senior citizens to step up and identify himself or herself.

 

Agenda item #2, if passed, would prevent those of us who seek out competition from doing so if it meant dropping to a lower "age-based" category. Those who know me know that I move around amongst the categories a lot. Hopefully, those who know me also know that I do so for more entertainment and to find more competition and not to find a weak category. I'm 64, and usually shoot Classic Cowboy or FCD. Oftentimes I show up at a match and find that there isn't anyone else shooting Classic or FCD so I enter something else. Thus, I have found myself shooting bp and cap and ball guns in Duelist since no one else was shooting Frontiersman or FCD that day. Frequently, I shoot my Classic Cowboy guns in Duelist if no one else is shooting CC.

 

As I said, I'm 64, and while I have some age-related physical issues, I'm a lot better off than some others my age. Some of those shooters NEED to shoot a senior category. I, fortunately, can still compete with younger shooters.

 

When I shoot Duelist, I enter Duelist even if Senior Duelist is offered. Senior Duelist is often populated by shooters who would be ecstatic to break 40 seconds, I'm usually in the 25-27 second range shooting my CC guns, so I enter Duelist. Cherry Picking?-no way since my good friend Doc Eels shoots Duelist around here and is usually in the high teens on a 10-10-4. I like the idea of allowing those who don't have the same speed as I have to compete against one another without forcing me to beat up on them. I'd rather finish second or third in Duelist than win Senior Duelist by 10-15 seconds a stage-I have boxes of awards, I don't really need more. Forcing me to stay in a category with no one that can compete with me would be my idea of hell.

 

I've shot Gunfighter a few times and I'm not that good at it, but I have decided when I do enter Gunfighter in the future, I won't enter Senior Gunfighter.

 

I have seen the type of behavior that some seem so upset over. I've seen a man in his 60's enter and win Cowboy since no one else was in it-does this mean we need a new rule? I think dead silence by the audience when this type of person wins an award would be a better response than a new rule, if any response is even needed. On the other hand, if it makes that shooter feel better-who cares?

 

Buckeroos and young guns are protected from people dropping down in age and I think that's enough. I can't think of anything more pitiful than a shooter in his/her 30's or whatever asking for protection from us old farts.

 

And what would come next? If someone decides to switch to a two-handed category from Duelist, Gunfighter or whatever because they perceive that category as weaker at a given match, isn't that "cherry-picking" as well? Will the rule makers fashion a new rule to catch that? Perhaps everyone should be required to write down their category in a secret ballot type proceeding so they can't "pick their category wisely?" Will we also say that once one has picked their category they can't change before the match? Gotta bust those cherry-pickers you know.

 

I'm a little embarrassed for those who consistently seek out weaker competition but that's no basis for this proposed rule.

Sorta sounds like political issue has jumped up like a small dog in high oats---again and again. "Hit em all."

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I haven't seen anything that I would consider "cherry picking."

 

I have seen shooters wait until the last minute before registering to see if enough shooters sign up in their category to either ensure that there will be their category at the match or to see if there is any worthwhile competition, so that it makes a good performance meaningfull.

 

I have also seen shooters try a different category in a minor match just for the fun of it ~ like the nascent FC Gunfighter. I'm guilty of this one. Usually shoot FC Duelist.

 

But for a good shooter to select a category for an easy win? No.

 

 

On the other end of the scale, I often see newer shooters select categories whose loacl populations are closer to their own abilities. This is not cherry picking, and is a fine thing. After all, we ALL are here to have fun, top to bottom.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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I shoot against (and with) everyone who shows up to shoot. Our club ranks averyone together at the end of the day. If I want to see how I did against the older or younger shooters, all shooter's catagories are listed on the same sheet as the scores. Time and rank. What's the problem? Do you really have to be in the same catagory as anyone else to see how your scores compared to anyone else's?

Cash

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Ask yourself this: Does the current rule afford an advantage to one group over another? The answer is yes, it does. Reverse discrimination is as bad or worse than regular discrimination and here we have older shooters "protected" from younger shooters, but then allowed to jump on the younger shooters when they think it'll be advantageous. It just ain't right.

 

As an observation, it seems the older shooters like the rule as is and the younger shooters don't think it's fair. Hmmm.

 

And as far as being scared of being whooped, I can tell you that ain't it at all. It's about what's right.

 

Enough is enough .. lets just stop and look at some facts for a min ... and make sure we are all talking about the same thing ...

 

Cause ... we don't want to be unfair to the “boys” …

 

Lets pick a recent big match and see what happened … with cherry picking and all that stuff going on (of course why would anybody move if there wasn’t a weak category to move into … they will naturally even out but let’s see …).

 

Looking at Winter Range 2011 Results – category participation - available for all to see on their web site.

 

Cowboy (marked “any age” in their results) – 30 shooters

Wrangler – 31 shooters

49’er – 61 shooters

Senior – 55 shooters

Silver Seniors – 78 shooters

Elder Statesman – 67 shooters

 

Wow!! That looks even doesn’t it (not!) … Looks like those old guys swooped down and jumped all over those newbees!! (not!)

 

They said .. if the proposal passes … and there was a match where there were not enough shooters in a category that everyone would shift down … and if there weren’t enough at the bottom they would shift up.

 

Now … that’s pretty good …lock up the bulk of the shooters in the upper categories so you don’t have to shoot against them … clean up on what’s left in your category (you get to be the Daddy) … and if no one shows up in your category you get to slide up.

 

Now that sounds real fair … these boys should run for congress … check and see who is in the lightest (male age) category at the last Winter Range.

 

I’ll be asking the TGs for the clubs I attend to vote NO and I will be shooting Cowboy whenever I feel like it. (and I am 63 years old).

 

Pete

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The way to make the number of shooters in a category irrelevant would be to base the number of buckles awarded a percentage of the number of shooters in the category.

IE.

In the previous posted Winter Range results …

 

There were 30 Cowboy shooters sharing 10 buckles – you only had to be in the top 1/3 (33%) of your category to buckle.

 

There were 78 Silver Seniors sharing 10 buckles – you had to be in the top 12% of your category to buckle.

 

This certainly isn’t fair no matter what we do in regard to the proposal.

 

Wouldn’t it be cool if Winter Range gave out buckles to the top 20% of each category … That would likely put an end to any desire to jump category just to get a buckle (you would probably want to be in the largest populated category you were eligible to shoot in).

 

Just saying … :)

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This is a tough one.. it seems at my home club that the top shooters tend to be the Wrangler/49er group. I shoot Cowboy, it's the only choice I have (without changing something). I have lost to people who have dropped down to my class. Does it bother me? At the time yes but afterwards thinking about it no. If I can't beat an older fellow so be it, he deserves it. I compete month in month out with a good friend who I am a couple years older. I want the option in a few years to be able to drop down and still compete with him. So leave it alone.

 

My two cents..Bubba

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