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Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880

Agenda Item #2, you have got to be kidding me!

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My understanding is when you are 53 you shoot aged based as a 49er. Not a wrangler or buckarro. I thought that is what we were talking about. Folks changing classes for advantage? As far as style based-- that opens up tons of options in gear, shooting style and in dress. Hey-- if I'm wrong on this tell me-- I'm new doing this. This is just my understanding from reading the books.

Hi BBMG,

 

Currently, older shooters can drop down to younger age-based categories. For example, 49er is for those age 49 and up. If someone is 65, they can shoot their age category, Silver Senior, Senior, 49er, Wrangler, and Cowboy or a shooting style or propellant category. The change would put a upper limit on the age-based categories. This would make someone who is 65 stick in Silver Senior or go outside of the age-based categories for a change. They could still shoot Duelist, Senior Duelist (60+), Gunfighter, Frontier Cartridge...

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Hi BBMG,

 

Currently, older shooters can drop down to younger age-based categories. For example, 49er is for those age 49 and up. If someone is 65, they can shoot their age category, Silver Senior, Senior, 49er, Wrangler, and Cowboy or a shooting style or propellant category. The change would put a upper limit on the age-based categories. This would make someone who is 65 stick in Silver Senior or go outside of the age-based categories for a change. They could still shoot Duelist, Senior Duelist (60+), Gunfighter, Frontier Cartridge...

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

I gotta say-- folks should shoot age based class they fall in-- if you follow this out logically-- that means a 49er could drop down to buckaroo? I don't understand why if yourt shooting aged based you should be able to jump classes. If you don't want to shoot aged based, shoot a class with clothing, black powder or bore size restrictions. Then you can get as much challenge as you want-- ie-- Split Rail, Lassiter, Honey B Quick, Sage Chick, Smoking Iron or Doc Ells at the clubs I shoot at. :lol:

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I gotta say-- folks should shoot age based class they fall in-- if you follow this out logically-- that means a 49er could drop down to buckaroo? I don't understand why if yourt shooting aged based you should be able to jump classes. If you don't want to shoot aged based, shoot a class with clothing, black powder or bore size restrictions. Then you can get as much challenge as you want-- ie-- Split Rail, Lassiter, Honey B Quick, Sage Chick, Smoking Iron or Doc Ells at the clubs I shoot at. :lol:

Hi again BBMG,

 

I get your drift. I just want you to know that the Junior categories (Buckaroo/Buckarette and Young Guns Male/Female) are protected as they have a closed upper end.

 

BTW, I agree with you. I don't know yet if my club agrees with me. Therefore, I may end up voting "no."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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And that makes a lot of sense. If you feel that the Buckaroo, Buckarette, Young gun boys and girls need that upper limit then put it on all catagories! Why descriminate???

 

KQ

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For the folks in favor of this....

 

Why is it ok for Evil Roy to beat a new shooter that is a Silver Senior but it is not ok for ER to beat a new shooter that is a 49'r?

 

Why is it ok for Longhunter to beat a new 49'r but not a new Wrangler?

 

Why is it ok for James Samuel Pike to beat a new Wrangler but not a new Cowboy?

 

Aren't you really talking about Ability instead of Age? Does it matter that they happen to be older?

 

Stan

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Wouldn't work in these parts! We whopped by the women on a regular basis, and some of them do it bare footed. :blush::lol:

 

Wouldn't work in Nevada either! :D

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But seriously...I haven't made up my mind on this one yet...I know a few of those "cherry pickers" that jump categories after they see who is signed up. I try to pick a category and stay there...however...it is nice "now that I'm 49"...to be able to have "options" when I'm signing up for a match...a girl likes "options"! :blush:

 

As for those "cherry pickers"...I get a really good laugh when someone jumps categories just before the 1st shot...just to find out someone else has jumped categories just before the 1st shot...ya never really know who's going to end up in your category until that first day's scores are posted. Just sayin'! ;)

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Wouldn't work in Nevada either! :D

 

And honestly - if you are "That good" that you can cherry pick and assuredly win your category.

You probably stopped worrying about category placement a long time ago.

 

Nellie and I are definitely not shooting in the same category,

but we are comparing our scores to each other just as much as we are to anyone in our category.

 

I am a lot more interested about where I stack up in a field of 200, 300 or 700 than I am about where I placed in a group of 8, 12, or 23.

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Yep, and someday I'm going to be as fast as your raw times...and still be clean! :) LOL

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Actually, I think those who are upset are only worried about good shooters moving around. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist-bad Buffy!

 

You are sorry.....watch your pockets..... I was being a little sarcastic in my post.....when the previous post said we should shoot where we belong....that just hit me wrong....glad I could set you up though.

 

KK

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Hi again BBMG,

 

I get your drift. I just want you to know that the Junior categories (Buckaroo/Buckarette and Young Guns Male/Female) are protected as they have a closed upper end.

 

BTW, I agree with you. I don't know yet if my club agrees with me. Therefore, I may end up voting "no."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Ok, just trying to use the wildest example I could.

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For the folks in favor of this....

 

Why is it ok for Evil Roy to beat a new shooter that is a Silver Senior but it is not ok for ER to beat a new shooter that is a 49'r?

 

Why is it ok for Longhunter to beat a new 49'r but not a new Wrangler?

 

Why is it ok for James Samuel Pike to beat a new Wrangler but not a new Cowboy?

 

Aren't you really talking about Ability instead of Age? Does it matter that they happen to be older?

 

Stan

 

Yes, it is about ability. It easy as a good shooter to look at this and say well sounds like someone needs to practice more. It's about seeking out a weak category simply for the sake of a buckle or plaque. If folks can't see whats wrong with that whether legal or not then there is no need to debate about it any further. And no, my support of this agenda item has NOTHING to do with fearing good shooters coming into my category.

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For the folks in favor of this....

 

Why is it ok for Evil Roy to beat a new shooter that is a Silver Senior but it is not ok for ER to beat a new shooter that is a 49'r?

 

Why is it ok for Longhunter to beat a new 49'r but not a new Wrangler?

 

Why is it ok for James Samuel Pike to beat a new Wrangler but not a new Cowboy?

 

Aren't you really talking about Ability instead of Age? Does it matter that they happen to be older?

 

Stan

 

If this is ok then why can't I shoot buckaroo or young gun when my age fits the Wrangler catagoy? This is like having a law that prohibits some from an activity and allows others to do that same activity. It is age descrimination!

 

KQ

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Yes, it is about ability. It easy as a good shooter to look at this and say well sounds like someone needs to practice more. It's about seeking out a weak category simply for the sake of a buckle or plaque. If folks can't see whats wrong with that whether legal or not then there is no need to debate about it any further. And no, my support of this agenda item has NOTHING to do with fearing good shooters coming into my category.

 

 

Well said and how I see it too.

 

As you said, if people can not see that, then no further debate is needed.

 

 

I too have no fear of anyone coming into my catagory (49'r), which is pretty populated and competitive. I don't care if Cowboy's or Wrangglers come in (if it was legal to do so).

 

Seeking competition? Just look at the Overall score board and see where you place in regards to whomever you want to chase or follow.

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Yes, it is about ability. It easy as a good shooter to look at this and say well sounds like someone needs to practice more. It's about seeking out a week catefory simply for the sake of a buckle or plaque. If folks can't see whats wrong with that whether legal or not then there is no need to debate about it any further. And no, my support of this agenda item has NOTHING to do with fearing good shooters coming into my category.

I'm not saying they (the new shooters) need to practice......although it does help......I am saying that if you get beat you get beat.

 

Why is it ok for a seasoned Senior to beat a new Senior but not ok for a seasoned Senior to beat a new Cowboy?

 

Why are we more worried about one set of new shooters (younger) but not another (older)?

 

Which category do you see the most new shooters in these days?...for me it's still Senior

 

Does the new Cowboy feel worse about being beat than a new Senior?

 

Why were the age categories ever established?

Because the premise is that older shooters can't physically compete with younger shooters. NOW the premise is that younger shooters can't compete with older shooters. It can't be both ways! The problem has never really been about AGE it's been about ability but no one wants to tackle that with a system of standardized stages and performance tracking and reporting. We would rather fall back to a much easier, less complicated to administer age bracket system. Both systems have their flaws. Locking people into ONE age specific bracket would just be ADDING one more flaw to age bracket system.

 

Why is Tom Watson allowed to play in the Senior PGA tournaments and regular PGA tournaments yet Tiger Woods can only play in the PGA? Because they have accepted the fact that as we get older we do lose SOME physical ability so the PGA chose an age and made a PROTECTED tour for the Senior players. That doesn't mean the player that is 65 CAN'T compete on the PGA tour. They can and do....rarely ever do they actually win though.

 

I've never really seen a sport that does not allow older competitors to drop down and compete with younger competitors once a certain physical maturity level has been reached. Have you?

 

 

 

Believe me I know YOU ain't skeered.......

 

 

Stan

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Yes, it is about ability. It easy as a good shooter to look at this and say well sounds like someone needs to practice more. It's about seeking out a weak category simply for the sake of a buckle or plaque. If folks can't see whats wrong with that whether legal or not then there is no need to debate about it any further. And no, my support of this agenda item has NOTHING to do with fearing good shooters coming into my category.

 

Here in lies the problem - I don't think anyone arguing against the rule change believe that it's a GOOD thing to "Cherry Pick". We just don't see that there needs to be a rule that restricts folks from playing in other age categories.

 

If you are basing your debate end by this belief, then that's sad.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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I have enough plaques, buckles, and trinkets. I don't really care how I finish in any category. I look at the overall scores. Competition is the same when everyone is vying for the top spot regardless of their particular category.

That said, why do we have aged based categories if we don't have to shoot in them? Are categories just guidelines? If a senior shooter drops down to 49r and wins EOT is he the true 49r champion? No, he's a senior that dropped down to 49r that won that category. Same with any other category that someone has dropped back into. Year after year I see the same really good shooters drop down to a youger category just to game the system in order to stroke their ego with a trip to the podium. It gets old and I'm suprised folks are not heckling them, perhaps rotten veggies and fruits sre in order.

 

LL' :)

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Without some sort of skill based classification (it won't happen,ever) catagory segeration will always be contencious. This ain't t-ball, you might not win a trinket.

 

If it is cherry pickin' you want to fix do that at registration Apparently everyone "knows" what is going on. Stop it.

 

If it is age groups that you want to fix just don't give catagory awards to folks that move out (in either direction) of "their" age group.

 

The best fix I can see is an option to "shoot for age". pick one, don't expect a trinket if you move out of "your" group. Everybody that does not "shoot for age" goes into Open

 

Olen

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Here in lies the problem - I don't think anyone arguing against the rule change believe that it's a GOOD thing to "Cherry Pick". We just don't see that there needs to be a rule that restricts folks from playing in other age categories.

 

If you are basing your debate end by this belief, then that's sad.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

 

It's sad because it doesn't mesh with what you believe? My opinion is just as valid as yours sport.

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Can we jump over into the ladies category if the men are too fast?

 

That wouldn't do a lot of us any good around these parts...some of the wimmen 'round these parts whoop a lot of menfolk like a rented mule!

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Why were the age categories ever established?

Because the premise is that older shooters can't physically compete with younger shooters.

 

This premise is flawed. Just because you are older doesn't mean you can't compete, as your own examples show.

Yet, the current system protects the older shooters from the younger, but not everyone equally.

It's age discrimination. Shooters should be treated equally. If you’re going to have age categories then it should be the same rules for all.

If you don't like it then the age categories should be eliminated, since they are functionally a meaningless distinction.

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Without some sort of skill based classification (it won't happen,ever) catagory segeration will always be contencious. This ain't t-ball, you might not win a trinket.

 

If it is cherry pickin' you want to fix do that at registration Apparently everyone "knows" what is going on. Stop it.

 

If it is age groups that you want to fix just don't give catagory awards to folks that move out (in either direction) of "their" age group.

 

The best fix I can see is an option to "shoot for age". pick one, don't expect a trinket if you move out of "your" group. Everybody that does not "shoot for age" goes into Open

 

Olen

 

 

Yeah OPEN ,OPEN. OPEN..............you dont wanna shoot where ya belong (hahahah )then go ova der.......open, open, open

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This premise is flawed. Just because you are older doesn't mean you can't compete, as your own examples show.

Yet, the current system protects the older shooters from the younger, but not everyone equally.

It's age discrimination. Shooters should be treated equally. If you’re going to have age categories then it should be the same rules for all.

If you don't like it then the age categories should be eliminated, since they are functionally a meaningless distinction.

 

 

Well said!

 

KQ

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Not that I have a big problem with trophy hunting, but I do see more and more shooters well over 49 shooting cowboy. And I assume they are doing this so as not to compete agin shooters who are much faster than they are in there own age based category, i.e 49er or senior. Again, just an observation.

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This premise is flawed. Just because you are older doesn't mean you can't compete, as your own examples show.

Yet, the current system protects the older shooters from the younger, but not everyone equally.

It's age discrimination. Shooters should be treated equally. If you’re going to have age categories then it should be the same rules for all.

If you don't like it then the age categories should be eliminated, since they are functionally a meaningless distinction.

Hey Pard!

 

Where have you been? Why don't you post more often?

 

You are "the man" in my book.

 

Thank you for your post!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I wonder how many of the people wandering through categories are like me, and have not felt like we belong anywhere since they took Modern away from us. Keep messing with the categories, we will get the message sooner or later and find where we are comfortable.. like IDPA maybe?

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I wonder how many of the people wandering through categories are like me, and have not felt like we belong anywhere since they took Modern away from us. Keep messing with the categories, we will get the message sooner or later and find where we are comfortable.. like IDPA maybe?

Hello Kid,

 

I know someone who quit when the Modern category was eliminated and I believe we are better off without folks with that attitude. If you can compare IDPA and SASS, maybe you should give serious thought about why you are here. I believe IDPA and SASS are not comparable and, if you think they are, this may not be the "game" for you.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Which category do you see the most new shooters in these days?...for me it's still Senior

 

Does the new Cowboy feel worse about being beat than a new Senior?

Exactly,It is hard to get kids to come into the game and when we do someone has to cherry pick them,I have seen new shooters leave with a look on their face if I cant beat the old folks how can I beat someone my own age?They have no clue that the shooter that beat them has been shooting many years and is not going to win their cat.anymore.No wonder we cant keep kids today playing the game.Seniors will come to shoot for a chance to play cowboy ,we forget that the kids today did not grow up watching Gene,Roy,Lone Ranger,Ect.Ect.It is up to us to teach them not whoop on them.And to all the cherry pickers out there,are you sure its their generation that needs the instant gratification?

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Maybe the states shoots have the solution...you can shoot the state match and win overall but if you aren't from the state you can't have the state championship. You can shoot below your age and win the overall but you can''t have the buckle for the category. Seems to me the precedent is there.

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Hello Kid,

 

I know someone who quit when the Modern category was eliminated and I believe we are better off without folks with that attitude. If you can compare IDPA and SASS, maybe you should give serious thought about why you are here. I believe IDPA and SASS are not comparable and, if you think they are, this may not be the "game" for you.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

Attagirl Miss Allie. If everyone displayed that attitude, lot's more would be leaving too I bet.

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Maybe the states shoots have the solution...you can shoot the state match and win overall but if you aren't from the state you can't have the state championship. You can shoot below your age and win the overall but you can''t have the buckle for the category. Seems to me the precedent is there.

Hi DSD,

 

I like this thought too. Bravo!

 

:ph34r:;)

 

Allie Mo

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It's sad because it doesn't mesh with what you believe? My opinion is just as valid as yours sport.

 

What's "Sad" is this statement:

 

"If folks can't see whats wrong with that whether legal or not then there is no need to debate about it any further"

 

You're stating that those that hold a differing opinion don't understand that Cherry Picking is wrong...of course we do, we just don't think that it's such a problem as to require a new category structure.

 

And why in the heck are you referring to me as "Sport". That's pretty darn condesending...what did I ever do to you to deserve that Duece? Was the Monster soda that I gave you at Comin'at'cha that warm that it pissed ya off?

 

:mellow:

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Without some sort of skill based classification (it won't happen,ever) catagory segeration will always be contencious. This ain't t-ball, you might not win a trinket.

 

Olen

 

Actually The River Bend Rough Riders have introduced a category called 'Shootist' which is based on skill. I'm not sure what the qualifications are, I'm not shooting in it, but it's voluntary.

 

I'm 48, and I shoot wrangler, next year I'll shoot 49er. For me where I end up overall means a lot more than where I finish in my category so I don't care about older shooters moving down.

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Actually The River Bend Rough Riders have introduced a category called 'Shootist' which is based on skill. I'm not sure what the qualifications are, I'm not shooting in it, but it's voluntary.

 

I'm 48, and I shoot wrangler, next year I'll shoot 49er. For me where I end up overall means a lot more than where I finish in my category so I don't care about older shooters moving down.

 

 

That's great, for the River Bend Rough Riders...

 

 

I am 100% sure that SASS at the national level will NEVER have any sort of classification metric. Nearly everybody is just fine with that (I am) but it makes for some really knotty efforts to "make thing fair", including all the changes proposed in the age group categories.

 

I like, and have proposed the notion, that anyone can move in either direction in the age groups but they don't get a trinket when shooting out of their age group. This is not a new idea as some state matches do something similar.

 

I would prefer an open category for any Cowhand of any age or sex, shooting any SASS legal firearm with any SASS legal propellant, from any SASS legal holster, in any SASS legal style while wearing any SASS legal costume. Call it "Cowhand" if you don't like "Open".

 

Run what ya brung, heads up against all comers.

 

We can divide this thing up into one year increments and there will still be folks aggrieved because somebody older or younger or better lookin' kicked them like a government mule.

 

Olen

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Guest Dusty Feller, SASS #20010L

Wow, talk about a tempest in a teapot.

 

Cherry picking is disengenuous when it happens for any reason. That is NOT what Buffalo Dick is supporting.

 

I am likely one of those folks who Buffalo Dick refers to when he suggests that a person might want to shoot Gunfighter (et al) instead of Senior (et al)Gunfighter so as to give the even more senior folks a shot. He and I have discussed this more than once; and we stll don't agree! :D

 

Being 69 years old (Buffy is a kid at 64 and 5 years means a lot at our very advanced ages) means that I am towards the top of the Senior group and do not feel at all bad at choosing to shoot Senior Duelist or Senior Gunfighter. Not that Buffy is wrong, it is just that my opinion is different than his. :lol:

 

Guess I do agree that many folks just go down a category to get better competition; even if they do get beat. I have seen Buffalo Dick do this more than once; and get beat more than once!

 

Actually, I have thought about shootng Gunfighter but Lassiter and Max Montana (both GREAT shooters) are local guys who clean my clock every time; and they are both just kids! :)

 

Nuff said!

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