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Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880

Agenda Item #2, you have got to be kidding me!

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Is the problem AGE difference or the disparity in SKILL. It seems the assumption is that all new shooters are young it's just as likely that a "senior" shooter is just as new a shooter as a "cowboy". Either new shooter wouldn't stand a chance against our seasoned "senior" shooters or our seasoned "cowboy" aged shooters.

 

I don't see Agenda 2 being the answer.

 

Stan

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I'm really new, haven't even shot a match yet, so I'm looking at this from a (more or less) outsider's point of view. But I am a SASS member, and an opinionated bastidge, so I feel I have a right to share my thoughts.

 

Possum is right...it's about what's right. If you're gonna have age-based catagories, then you should shoot in your age group whether you're 10 or 100. People aren't going to generally lie about their age in order to shoot a different group in this sport (at least that's not the impression I get from the type of people who engage in this particular segment) so I don't think that's worth worrying about. I'm 43 and have paid more dues in life than a 35 year old (and more than some who are in their 50's) but I don't think that means I should be given privileges different from the younger group. We're all equals on this giant blue egg so should be treated as such.

 

FWIW....I am not a politically correct person by any stretch so you won't see me with bark splinters from hugging trees or anything even close to that. I'm white, not "European-American"....does that tell you where I stand? I said that because I don't want anyone to think I am a "Cause Junkie."

 

That being said, other than having a group for the young'uns (Buckaroos, right?) and one for those that perhaps aren't physically capable of engaging the stages at the same general level as the masses (should they choose to, not be forced to), why have age groups at all? My personal vote would go towards ditching them altogether and have everyone shoot on the same level (unless you're in the Gunfighter or Duelist categories or Classic or BW). Then there's no worrying about whether somebody's jumping up or down a bracket, cherry picking, etc. You'd be competing against everyone and your ranking would be indicative of how good you are, not how old you are. My first radio control truck race (a couple of years ago) I got beat by a 6 year old boy (at a perfectly healthy 41 years of age I should have been more coordinated than a 6 year old). It stung, but it showed me where my skill level was among the masses. There's no better way to go about it.

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Is the problem AGE difference or the disparity in SKILL. It seems the assumption is that all new shooters are young it's just as likely that a "senior" shooter is just as new a shooter as a "cowboy". Either new shooter wouldn't stand a chance against our seasoned "senior" shooters or our seasoned "cowboy" aged shooters.

 

I don't see Agenda 2 being the answer.

 

Stan

 

And since we don't have ANY skill based markers, the age groups are not likely to go away.

 

I personally prefer Cowboy because it most closely represents what many folks are advocating, a throwback to the time when there were no divisions, categories, classifications or hardware break outs. Run what cha brung, heads up, may the best man or woman win. The notion that you can "buckle" 10 or 15 places deep is way to t-ball like for me.

 

Olen

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Agenda item #2, if passed, would prevent those of us who seek out competition from doing so if it meant dropping to a lower "age-based" category. Those who know me know that I move around amongst the categories a lot. Hopefully, those who know me also know that I do so for more entertainment and to find more competition and not to find a weak category.

 

I am afraid there are shooters, and I would guess only a few, that do so to find a weak category at a big match for their own advantage. Several of us here on the Wire have already said we have seen it happen.

 

As I said, I'm 64, and while I have some age-related physical issues, I'm a lot better off than some others my age. Some of those shooters NEED to shoot a senior category. I, fortunately, can still compete with younger shooters.
.

 

Good for you. I mean that. You are a lucky man and I hope to be as lucky when I am that age. I know folks still in their 40's who cannot claim your physical ability.

 

...I have boxes of awards, I don't really need more.

 

Again, congratulations. There are however, many younger and more importantly INexperienced shooters who are working hard and sepnding alt of time and money trying to get to that level of success. The few experienced and generally older shooters who "game" or "cherry pick" a big match and take the award or awards from the less experienced shooters in their own age based category do nothing to promote a feeling of accomplishment or forward movement for those younger shooters. I have seen that happen.

 

 

I have seen the type of behavior that some seem so upset over. I've seen a man in his 60's enter and win Cowboy since no one else was in it-does this mean we need a new rule?

 

Not the same thing. No one else was entered in that category so who cares?

 

I think dead silence by the audience when this type of person wins an award would be a better response than a new rule, if any response is even needed. On the other hand, if it makes that shooter feel better-who cares?
.

 

I agree. But I also think that making the new shooters feel welcome and productive is a great way to promote SASS and CAS growth.

 

Buckeroos and young guns are protected from people dropping down in age and I think that's enough. I can't think of anything more pitiful than a shooter in his/her 30's or whatever asking for protection from us old farts.

 

I can. A CAS veteran who games a match down an age category or two for his/her own advantage over shooters who have much less CAS experience for the sole purpose of gaming a win over shooters said gamer knows he/she can beat especially when he/she knows they can not win their own age based category. That is more pitiful.

 

 

I'm a little embarrassed for those who consistently seek out weaker competition but that's no basis for this proposed rule.

 

Is seeking out weaker competition for personal gain something that should be allowed? It may be difficut to regulate, but at least some step should be taken to discuss finding a way to curb this behavior. Gaming or cherry picking a category at a big match for personal gain sure don't sound like the "Cowboy Way" to me.

 

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing wrong with creating age based categories and shooting within the ages delineated. It is already that way for the youngest and more senior shooters - just not the middle of the pack. Ain't that just a bit incongruous? If a shooter prefers to not shoot an age based category, there are plenty of non age based choices to shoot.

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The distribution of shooters in different categories proves that the demographics of SASS and its categories are lopsided and need fixing.

There should be more categories in the upper age groups. IMO Each age group should have roughly the same number of shooters.

Agenda item 2 is not necessary as some shooters are moving down to shoot in less crowded categories.

 

I say lets not dink with the categories we have.

Lets let them go for a while.

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And since we don't have ANY skill based markers, the age groups are not likely to go away.

 

Olen

 

 

So we are treating the symptom, and not the disease, right?

 

No offence Olen, actually you hit it right on the head.

 

Dang It

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Lessee.....

 

Shooter works his tail off. Spends a buncha money on guns and ammo, practices/shoots enough to wear out a set of guns every year. Dang fast. Beats everbody. A lot. Come the next birthday (when everbody is waiting fer him to go into the next catagory, he don't go. Stays where he is. There is much grumbling and talk of fetching ropes and such.

 

I see no problem here.

 

 

Same shooter. Goes to XXX match. aims to get himself one more XXX just to say he got him an even number of'em or whatever. Notices who's in XXX catagory, decided to go to this "other" catagory because he likes the competition there better.

 

I see no problem here either. (I just can't get all worked up about this. Really.)

 

Same shooter. He's older but still dang fast. Just don't seem right to beat up on all them oldsters in senior XXX so he stays in Wrangler or Cowboy because he likes the competition.

 

I don't see a problem here either. I really don't!

 

Different shooter, he's kind of slow, not all that good and he (or she) decides to see how they stack up agin' the youngsters. Shoots a catagory well below their age just to say... Has a very good day and takes first place to the surprise of all.

 

Problem? Are you kidding me?

 

Same as above but he places XXX does it really matter?

 

You beat someone because you are a better/faster shot. Age don't make no difference. Style, powder, costume, pick one and go have fun. Don't like the competition? Then change!! If you get beat, you need to practice (or maybe you be getting old and should stick to running with the smaller dogs.)

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Seems folks have forgotten that approximate 20-25% of the shooters are women. Out of a 200 shooter match approximate 40-50 are women scattered over a potential 27 catagories. L Senior and L49r are pretty populated. Nothing for a L Senior to jump down a couple catagories (after reviewing who's coming list) and pick up an easier win. Just saying.

 

Or, two older gents/ladies that are friends decide both want to buckle and if they stay in same catagory, one will not buckle. So one decides to go out and shop around in another catagory. Just saying.

 

I see more cherry picking in the Lady Catagories than the Mens. Just saying.

 

Granted, it is a low percentile of folks that do it, but still poor sportsman ship only if they are trying to gain an advantage by running away from shooters of their own age group that are near equal. Just saying.

 

I suspect nothing will change in the rules but it is interesting that people are now talking about it.

 

Blastmaster

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If you are going to limit a young person from competing with older competers in an aged based catagory system. Then why would you want to give an older person the oppertunity to compete with younger aged based catagorys. What you are doing is eliminating younger shooter from bumping up but allowing older shooters to bump down. Maybe the whole aged based system needs to be eliminated?

Lefty

 

I'm with you Lefty. The game of Cowboy Action Shooting really should be about the costumes, the guns used in each category, and the skill to use them, not your age or what gender you are. I don't know about any of you but I've been beaten by older men and younger women!

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I am afraid there are shooters, and I would guess only a few, that do so to find a weak category at a big match for their own advantage.

 

Is seeking out weaker competition for personal gain something that should be allowed? It may be difficut to regulate, but at least some step should be taken to discuss finding a way to curb this behavior. Gaming or cherry picking a category at a big match for personal gain sure don't sound like the "Cowboy Way" to me.

 

 

 

Define "Big" match.

I don't believe at BIG MATCHES that there are too many opportunities to cherry pick.

There aint too many places to hide at big matches, if you win, top 5 or even top 10 at EOT or Winter Range, you likely can shoot.

 

At a BIG MATCH, there will almost ALWAYS be somebody in a given class that can give you a run for your money.

 

You might be able to look at a category and say I'm pretty sure I can top 5 or top 10 in that category, but to look at a category at a BIG MATCH and state, "I'm going to shoot such and such because I am guaranteed to beat anyone in that category".

 

That would require some amazing self confidence.

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That would require some amazing self confidence.

 

 

Self confidence is one of the main ingredients of a good shooter. Without it, ya are just another number on the board.

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Self confidence is one of the main ingredients of a good shooter. Without it, ya are just another number on the board.

 

 

 

Theres a very fine line between self confidence and arrogance.

Self confidence:

I firmly believe that I could do well in Gunfighter at any match in the country.

I firmly believe that I can take home wood in the Gunfighter category at any match in the country.

 

Extreme self confidence:

If I do my job perfectly and my competition stumbles even a little bit, I firmly believe I could go to any match in the country and win Gunfighter.

 

Arrogance:

I could go to any match in the country and win Gunfighter.

 

I have been accused of the first two a couple of times.

The third is a step beyond that.

To cherry pick your category at a BIG MATCH.

I think you would have to have the third mentality and I don't know too many shooters that could back that up.

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When you're talking about matches like Winter Range, EOT or some of the bigger regionals or state matches, there are enough shooters involved that switching categories to try for a higher finish would be hard to do. But, at a lot of annual matches or even smaller state or regional matches, the opportunity is there for some shooters to "choose their category wisely". The problem is when some shooters are allowed to do this after looking at who is signed up in each category at the match, before entering themselves. Smokin Gator

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My definition of a big match is a club's 2 day annual or a state level match, NOT the National or World Championship. I am talking about a large match with lots of shooters from the surrounding area, lots of good shooters competing. Certainly not EoT or WR.

 

Smokin Gator summed what I was trying to say very well, especially his last sentence.

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The last few posts bring up a good point about cherry-picking categories at the big matches. I would like to see State level matches and above require a shooter to have shot 5 or 6 matches that year in the category that they wish to shoot, to be eligible for awards.

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Every person should be allowed to choose their category for whatever reason they want to believe. If that reason is because they believe the other shooters in that category are less skilled then so be it. Just because they believe it doesn't make it true. The category another person chooses has absolutly no impact on your choice of category and on the way you shoot. Many of the suggestions of "requirements" for choosing a category are absurd. If they weren't, then in the extreme ones category should be chosen not by the individual but by everyone else. Frankly, the category chosen by a person is no concern or business of anyone else other than the scorekeeper.

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I am 54 years old and shoot flattop Rugers. I shoot cowboy because my "character" is a cowboy, not a "wrangler" (horse herder) or a "49'r"(miner). I would love the chance to shoot classic cowboy, duelist or gunfighter, would even give frontier cartridge a try but I'm not allowed to because of the tremendously unfair advantage of my adjustable sights. Please do not suggest I sell my flattops and buy vaqueros. I have the guns I enjoy shooting. So now the only category I will be allowed to shoot in is 49'r? I realize rules are rules, but a goodly number of them are a waste of good paper, nonsensical or unnecessary IMHO.

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"Every person should be allowed to choose their category for whatever reason they want to believe. If that reason is because they believe the other shooters in that category are less skilled then so be it. Just because they believe it doesn't make it true. The category another person chooses has absolutly no impact on your choice of category and on the way you shoot. Many of the suggestions of "requirements" for choosing a category are absurd. If they weren't, then in the extreme ones category should be chosen not by the individual but by everyone else. Frankly, the category chosen by a person is no concern or business of anyone else other than the scorekeeper."

 

 

So if a buddy of one of the people putting on a clubs annual match is allowed to sign up at the last minute, after looking at all of the entries, and another shooter would like the same opportunity, but is not allowed to because he's not one of the buddies, that's equal in your eyes?

 

"Frankly, the category chosen by a person is no concern or business of anyone else other than the scorekeeper." I agree, as long as everyone else has the same opportunity to choose their category.

 

I sign up for my preferred category and don't shoot in any others. There is no good reason to allow this stuff to go on. Smokin Gator

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I am 54 years old and shoot flattop Rugers. I shoot cowboy because my "character" is a cowboy, not a "wrangler" (horse herder) or a "49'r"(miner). I would love the chance to shoot classic cowboy, duelist or gunfighter, would even give frontier cartridge a try but I'm not allowed to because of the tremendously unfair advantage of my adjustable sights. Please do not suggest I sell my flattops and buy vaqueros. I have the guns I enjoy shooting. So now the only category I will be allowed to shoot in is 49'r? I realize rules are rules, but a goodly number of them are a waste of good paper, nonsensical or unnecessary IMHO.

 

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem or complain or bitch with a 54 Yo shooting in the Cowboy class if said person has consistantly signed up in that catagory regardless of whomever was in it,,,,, be it Bud, LD, HT, Rattlesnake Wrangler, Evil Roy, Rosita Gambler, Long Hunter,,,,,and the list goes on,,,or whoever else of that age catagory.... That ain't cherry picking.

 

Blastmaster

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So far all I've seen is the "Cowboys" put in their two cents on this agenda item and none of the "Cowgirls". You fellas that are all for this change better be careful. I've met a lot of ladies over the years who refused to move up to a new aged based category when they had a birthday because they said "I don't want anybody to know I've gotten older". One thing you don't want to do is tell the ladies they have to tell you their age!

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Can we jump over into the ladies category if the men are too fast?

 

Guess you haven't been spanked by Holy Terror?

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Guess you haven't been spanked by Holy Terror?

 

 

 

Would that be good or bad?

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So far all I've seen is the "Cowboys" put in their two cents on this agenda item and none of the "Cowgirls". You fellas that are all for this change better be careful. I've met a lot of ladies over the years who refused to move up to a new aged based category when they had a birthday because they said "I don't want anybody to know I've gotten older". One thing you don't want to do is tell the ladies they have to tell you their age!

 

 

I hear ya, but if they ever want to shoot the Huntsman World Senior Games in St. George, Utah, then they will have to fess up their age. :rolleyes:

 

The Huntsman organization makes ya show picture id to verify age so they can get ya into the correct catagory. Just saying!!

 

 

Blastmaster

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Guess you haven't been spanked by Holy Terror?

 

 

I believe HT only shoots EOT anymore. Just stay out of Cowgirl catagory if you want 1st place buckle,,, or accept the fact (if HT is shooting)the best ya will get is 2nd place in CG. :lol:

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I gotta say that I think the age based categories never needed all the breakdown we now have! While I can see a need for the Buckeroos, the Seniors, and the Elderstatesman, my personal experience has shown that many of the old timers and some of the kids can stand their own with any age group. Frankly, I think that's pretty impressive and it should be their personal choice as to where they wish to participate. However, as always I think the proper category breakdown should consider style of shooting, propellent used, then maybe by the costume and equipment categories. As least for me, age should be way on down the list in determining where we complete for the vast majority of us. Good luck and good shooting to all.

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So far all I've seen is the "Cowboys" put in their two cents on this agenda item and none of the "Cowgirls". You fellas that are all for this change better be careful. I've met a lot of ladies over the years who refused to move up to a new aged based category when they had a birthday because they said "I don't want anybody to know I've gotten older". One thing you don't want to do is tell the ladies they have to tell you their age!

:lol:

 

That right there could kill this item. :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who guesses she's too blonde or old to worry about folks knowing how old she is" Mo

 

PS My two cents were on the other thread, which was started by PaleWolf.

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I'd much rather see folks shoot in the group that they belong in. As stated before-- the problem is practice and experience. Buffy is :rolleyes: MUCH older than me--- but if he shot in my age group (49er) he would still thump me by about 25 seconds a stage. Not that it matters -- as we shoot at OVV where there are 4 or 5 current World Champions shooting and another 4 or 5 that finished to 10 also.

So, pretty much-- my only chance of an award of any type is a clean shoot. The 'gamer' statement is right on the money too. I see folks taking a look at who's shooting what class at several clubs and changing class so they do have a chance for a ribbon. Went to Guns of August the first time this year and saw even more of it! Folks were shooting categories that they never shot in the 1 1/2 years I have been doing this. Moving to a lesser populated and 'easier' class with less competition.

In my case it does not matter, because I'm not skilled enough to be competitive. But, some of the guys I shoot with who have more experience and more skill get a bit put out. They work like crazy to get competitive with the normal competition then someone who has been shooting 10 or 15 years drops in the class (where they should not be by rule) and bumps them out of a ribbon. I do hear them mumble a bit.

 

More importantly, if you want the sport to keep growing and folks to keep returning to the club to shoot. I think its a better to follow the "spirit of the game" and honestly compete in the class where you belong. That way the new guy who practiced all summer for a chance to get a ribbion at a mere local shoot -- might actually have a chance to get one. Now as far as regionals and above-- I would expect folks who spend big money to be there to try and win.

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Beauford, you say "(where they should not be by rule"). What rule are they violating? Maybe I overlooked it.

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But, some of the guys I shoot with who have more experience and more skill get a bit put out. They work like crazy to get competitive with the normal competition then someone who has been shooting 10 or 15 years drops in the class (where they should not be by rule) and bumps them out of a ribbon. I do hear them mumble a bit.

 

If someone is skilled enough to come into a populated category AND win.

Who are we to say they shouldn't be there?

Age protecting downward is as silly as style protections.

 

Duece Stevens isn't "normally" a Gunfighter, but if he can come into Gunfighter (either because he just wants too, or because he recognizes the weakness in the category) and kick my backside, then he is just better than me.

Should I whine that since he doesn't usually shoot that category, I shouldn't have to shoot against him?

 

If I get beat by a better shooter, I got beat by a better shooter. It doesn't matter whether that shooter is an established member of my category (say Lassiter or Widder) or just visiting the category (say Deuce). The only thing that matters is the scoresheet at the end of the match.

 

And if a shooter is eligible to shoot in a given category then they should be able too.

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There are too many rules now. Either SASS members are the most dishonest group of shooters on earth or they are the most paranoid group of shooters in earth. I have been a member of SASS for a long time but I cannot figure out what in the world has happened to SASS shooters since I began shooting. We had a small rule book and got along fine but now, it seems there is always someone who feels cheated, wronged or plans to be cheated in the future.

 

Sorry for stomping on your thread.

 

 

Birdshot SASS 3616,L, R

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Birdshot, I agree completely. Too many rules, and too many ways to interpret the ones we have. Just look at all the posts about "you make the call" and ya can see the conflicting opinions. Dunno how to fix it, thinking it has gotten too far out of hand to corral now.

 

Like you, I started a good while ago and it would be nice top be back there again.

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I'd much rather see folks shoot in the group that they belong in. As stated before-- the problem is practice and experience. Buffy is :rolleyes: MUCH older than me--- but if he shot in my age group (49er) he would still thump me by about 25 seconds a stage. Not that it matters -- as we shoot at OVV where there are 4 or 5 current World Champions shooting and another 4 or 5 that finished to 10 also.

So, pretty much-- my only chance of an award of any type is a clean shoot. The 'gamer' statement is right on the money too. I see folks taking a look at who's shooting what class at several clubs and changing class so they do have a chance for a ribbon. Went to Guns of August the first time this year and saw even more of it! Folks were shooting categories that they never shot in the 1 1/2 years I have been doing this. Moving to a lesser populated and 'easier' class with less competition.

In my case it does not matter, because I'm not skilled enough to be competitive. But, some of the guys I shoot with who have more experience and more skill get a bit put out. They work like crazy to get competitive with the normal competition then someone who has been shooting 10 or 15 years drops in the class (where they should not be by rule) and bumps them out of a ribbon. I do hear them mumble a bit.

 

More importantly, if you want the sport to keep growing and folks to keep returning to the club to shoot. I think its a better to follow the "spirit of the game" and honestly compete in the class where you belong. That way the new guy who practiced all summer for a chance to get a ribbion at a mere local shoot -- might actually have a chance to get one. Now as far as regionals and above-- I would expect folks who spend big money to be there to try and win.

 

I'm male, 65, can shoot one handed, gf or traditional style....can you tell me where I belong? I actually love to shoot all. My last four matches (all monthly) have been shot Senior GF, Senior, Senior Duelist, and Senior Duelist...

 

KK

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I'm male, 65, can shoot one handed, gf or traditional style....can you tell me where I belong? I actually love to shoot all. My last four matches (all monthly) have been shot Senior GF, Senior, Senior Duelist, and Senior Duelist...

 

KK

 

 

You are fine in any one of the catagories you have posted.

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Beauford, you say "(where they should not be by rule"). What rule are they violating? Maybe I overlooked it.

My understanding is when you are 53 you shoot aged based as a 49er. Not a wrangler or buckarro. I thought that is what we were talking about. Folks changing classes for advantage? As far as style based-- that opens up tons of options in gear, shooting style and in dress. Hey-- if I'm wrong on this tell me-- I'm new doing this. This is just my understanding from reading the books.

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I'm male, 65, can shoot one handed, gf or traditional style....can you tell me where I belong? I actually love to shoot all. My last four matches (all monthly) have been shot Senior GF, Senior, Senior Duelist, and Senior Duelist...

 

KK

 

Actually, I think those who are upset are only worried about good shooters moving around. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist-bad Buffy!

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