What's this Call?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Nope, it didn't happen today but it could.

 

There are 4 SG KD's during the stage, lined up straight across, about 2 feet from each other.

 

First of all, ALL SG KD's can be made up anytime.

 

PROCEDURE:

ATB, engage the two (2) OUTSIDE KD's (which are S1 and S4). Make SG safe

Then proceed with rifle and pistol scenerios.

THEN, with SG again, engage S2 and S3 and any SG KD's still standing.

 

SHOOTER's ACTIONS:

ATB, shooter slams down S1. With 2nd and 3rd shots, he/she nicks S2 and S3 but they don't fall. Then with 4th shot, slams down S4.

After rifle and pistol sequences, he/she picks SG back up and slams down S2 and S3.

 

Whats your call?

 

 

..........Widder

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

They ain't a hit until they're down.

 

[Wyatt]

No Call

 

Wyatt

[Krazy Kajun]

I ain't no expert but I'll take a guess.....P.

Ah the beauty of editing....it'd be a no call

Hindsight might be 20/20 but havin pards postin' the right answer after you missed it is priceless!!

[Jacknife]

Looks like shooter shot two extra shots.

 

What's the call????

 

Just call me in time for supper, that'll work.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Widder,

 

I'm with Wyatt.

 

KDs aren't a miss until the SG can no longer be shot and are left standing. Hitting the wrong KD that doesn't go down is a no call.

 

 

Allie

[Grizzly Dave]

Following the flowchart...

 

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

YES

Assess no misses.

Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?

If NO, assess a P

if YES no call

 

Is shooting at and missing 'engaging?' And how can you KNOW he didn't just miss S4 really badly twice?

 

Does the fact it was comstock rules for shotgun make it any different?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Following the flowchart...

 

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

YES

Assess no misses.

Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?

If NO, assess a P

if YES no call

 

Is shooting at and missing 'engaging?' And how can you KNOW he didn't just miss S4 really badly twice?

 

Does the fact it was comstock rules for shotgun make it any different?

 

Dang it - SG targets are not a HIT until they are down...unless they are swings or such.

 

End of story.

[Grizzly Dave]

Evenin Phantom, how are ya tonight? Hope to see ya at Comin at cha in November.

 

Grizz

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Widder, yur jus plane ole BAD!!!

 

Cheyenne

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

On a fixed target, it's a hit and a P. A KD isn't considered hit until it's down. Only the little kids don't have to take them down to have it count as a hit. Penalty is lost time and wasted ammo.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Evenin Phantom, how are ya tonight? Hope to see ya at Comin at cha in November.

 

Grizz

 

I'll be there!

 

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

No penalties.

 

Fillmore

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Easy peasy, Widder... ain't hit, no call.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Clean, but ugly.

 

See you in a few weeks

Randy

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Clean

 

 

Jefro

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

 

Whats your call?

 

 

..........Widder

Call: Slow RO, for not pointing out to shooter he needs to first knock down #1 and #4

Call: Shooter is very lucky

Call: None

[Rio Brazos Kid]

How can it NOT be a P, when the scenario states to ENGAGE, (not necessarily knock down), S1 and S4, then shot the Rifle and pistol targets and THEN shoot S2 and S3 AND ALL REMAINING STANDING SG TARGETS???

 

I read the scenario as 2 shots with SG, engaging S1 and S4, then shoot the other guns, then back to S2 and S3, and all remaing up SG targets.

 

Taking 4 shots at the git-go with the SG, in my opinion goes against the scenario. P earned.

 

RBK

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

The dreaded "E" word. If you can engage a rifle target by pointing your rifle downrange and jacking out a live round(which you can), I think if you shoot at and hit a KD, whether it falls or not, you have engaged it. He engaged the targets out of order. Understand fully that it's not a hit until it falls. But they were engaged.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Nope, it didn't happen today but it could.

 

There are 4 SG KD's during the stage, lined up straight across, about 2 feet from each other.

 

First of all, ALL SG KD's can be made up anytime.

 

PROCEDURE:

ATB, engage the two (2) OUTSIDE KD's (which are S1 and S4). Make SG safe

Then proceed with rifle and pistol scenerios.

THEN, with SG again, engage S2 and S3 and any SG KD's still standing.

 

SHOOTER's ACTIONS:

ATB, shooter slams down S1. With 2nd and 3rd shots, he/she nicks S2 and S3 but they don't fall. Then with 4th shot, slams down S4.

After rifle and pistol sequences, he/she picks SG back up and slams down S2 and S3.

 

Whats your call?

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Haven't read any replies... I'll say clean... The knockdowns KD1 &KD4 went down in order..

but only went down when shot in the proper sequence..

on shots 2 & 3 he/she missed KD4 and then hit it on their 4th shot..

Rance

[Dubious Don #56333]

How can it NOT be a P, when the scenario states to ENGAGE, (not necessarily knock down), S1 and S4, then shot the Rifle and pistol targets and THEN shoot S2 and S3 AND ALL REMAINING STANDING SG TARGETS???

 

I read the scenario as 2 shots with SG, engaging S1 and S4, then shoot the other guns, then back to S2 and S3, and all remaing up SG targets.

 

Taking 4 shots at the git-go with the SG, in my opinion goes against the scenario. P earned.

 

RBK

 

Nope. It ain't NUTHIN...no call. Engage got nothing to do with it. Comstock shotgun targets gots to go down to be called a hit. They don't go down, they ain't HIT. (Luck does count in some situations.)

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Nope. It ain't NUTHIN...no call. Engage got nothing to do with it. Comstock shotgun targets gots to go down to be called a hit. They don't go down, they ain't HIT. (Luck does count in some situations.)

 

 

Whether they were a HIT, meaning DOWN, or NOT, has nothing to do with it. The instructions state to engage the S1 and S4 targets, then move to the other targets. It does NOT say to keep shooting till S1 and S4 are down before moving to the other targets. The Procedure state to return to the shotgun after shooting the Rifle and Pistols, and engage S2 and S3, AND ALL REMAINING STANDING SG TARGETS.

 

Per the Procedure RE-Engaging standing SG targets occurs LAST, not first. Still say P earned.

 

RBK

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

Engaging is subjective here as 2 and 3 were not hit.

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

The Procedure state to return to the shotgun after shooting the Rifle and Pistols, and engage S2 and S3, AND ALL REMAINING STANDING SG TARGETS

 

 

First of all, ALL SG KD's can be made up anytime.

 

The procedure also said the shotgun could be made up at anytime, so now we have a little confusion about the instructions which makes a difference in how to make the call.

 

On a KD, down is a hit and not down is a make up shot. The first 2 shots were amazingly bad aim based on the fact that nothing went down. If shooter was supposed to WAIT for the makeups until after the last two targets, that's a P but based on the "make up at aytime" instruction, I would say that was not the case here.

[Lead Ringer]

Clean, but ugly.

 

See you in a few weeks

Randy

 

Clean, ugly and lucky. Easy one, no penalty!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Whether they were a HIT, meaning DOWN, or NOT, has nothing to do with it.

RBK

 

Whether you LIKE it or not...it DOES have something to do with it.

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Whether they were a HIT, meaning DOWN, or NOT, has nothing to do with it. The instructions state to engage the S1 and S4 targets, then move to the other targets. It does NOT say to keep shooting till S1 and S4 are down before moving to the other targets. The Procedure state to return to the shotgun after shooting the Rifle and Pistols, and engage S2 and S3, AND ALL REMAINING STANDING SG TARGETS.

 

Per the Procedure RE-Engaging standing SG targets occurs LAST, not first. Still say P earned.

 

RBK

 

Shooter missed S4 with second and third shot, maybe by a lot, hit with 4th shot, SG misses don't count unless still standing at the end of the stage. I don't think you can prove shooters intent, only what KD's show.

 

Clean.

 

Randy

[Tricky Trina, SASS #59582L]

Per the Shooters Hand Book, page 21, under Stage Conventions:

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

(the second part has no bearing on this situation)

 

Per the Range Operations Basic Safety Course Hand Book (ROI Course), page 14, under Stage Conventions:

1. All knockdown shotgun targets may be reengaged until down.

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

 

The only items I see in the handbooks about shooters intent is under Failure to Engage and Spirit of the Game penalties. Neither penalty applied to this situation. The shotgun targets were hit in the proper order. The original post did say shotgun make ups at any time. If the shooter intended to shoot S2 and S3 but they didn’t go down, they incurred their own time penalty using those extra shots.

 

No “P” to a very lucky shooter………

 

Have a good day!

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

On a fixed target, it's a hit and a P. A KD isn't considered hit until it's down. Only the little kids don't have to take them down to have it count as a hit. Penalty is lost time and wasted ammo.

 

This brings up the question of what should the call be if it were a buckaroo shooting in the op?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

How can it NOT be a P, when the scenario states to ENGAGE, (not necessarily knock down), S1 and S4, then shot the Rifle and pistol targets and THEN shoot S2 and S3 AND ALL REMAINING STANDING SG TARGETS???

 

 

 

The dreaded "E" word. If you can engage a rifle target by pointing your rifle downrange and jacking out a live round(which you can), I think if you shoot at and hit a KD, whether it falls or not, you have engaged it. He engaged the targets out of order. Understand fully that it's not a hit until it falls. But they were engaged.

 

 

Engaging is subjective here as 2 and 3 were not hit.

Aaah yes the dreaded "E" word. This has been discussed more than once. Engage has two different meanings, when used in stage instructions think of it as "Shoot/Hit". Our glossory of terms say "Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target." This applies to the act of cycling a firearm, such as levering a round and pulling the trigger, weather the round goes off or not the act of engaged has occoured. An easier way to avoid this confussion is to not use the word "engage" when writing stage instructions. Here's the original instructions without "engage"

 

PROCEDURE:

ATB, shoot/hit the two (2) OUTSIDE KD's (which are S1 and S4). Make SG safe

Then proceed with rifle and pistol scenerios.

THEN, with SG again, shoot/hit S2 and S3 and any SG KD's still standing

 

And here's a couple of instructions without the use of "engage" or "with first pistol go bang-bang-bang-bang-bang holster"

 

When ready say the line “My name’s Rango” At the beep shoot a 2-3-3-2 sweep starting on either end, make rifle safe. With pistols shoot a 2-3-3-2 sweep starting on either end, move to table 2. With shotgun knockdown the four targets in any order. Muzzles up, to the unloading table.

 

This stage uses "engage" only to clearify that an attempt must be made on the clay bird.

 

When ready say the line “Call in Rattlesnake Jake” At the beep with shotgun knockdown the two targets, then knockdown the popper and shoot the bird. A hit on the bird is a 5 second bonus, a miss is not a miss. Failure to engage the bird will be scored as a miss. Make shotgun safe on Molly. With rifle shoot two 2-1-2 sweeps starting on either end, make rifle safe on Molly. Move to position 2, with pistols shoot two 2-1-2 sweeps starting on either end. Muzzles up, to the unloading table.

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I think a P is in order here.

It is awarded for not shooting targets S2 and S3 in the right order.

According to the flow chart;

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? YES

Assess No Misses

2. Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order? NO instructions called for S1, S4 rifle/pistol S2 S3.

Engage is the critical term here.

Assess Procedural.

 

From the RO1 Manual page 30

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

The shooter engaged S2 and S3 prior to S4. Wrong order. Hence a P.

Or does the Comstock rules negate the stage instructions.

 

Hope PWB can chime in here.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I think a P is in order here.

It is awarded for not shooting targets S2 and S3 in the right order.

According to the flow chart;

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? YES

Assess No Misses

2. Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order? NO instructions called for S1, S4 rifle/pistol S2 S3.

Engage is the critical term here.

Assess Procedural.

 

From the RO1 Manual page 30

 

The shooter engaged S2 and S3 prior to S4. Wrong order. Hence a P.

Or does the Comstock rules negate the stage instructions.

 

Hope PWB can chime in here.

Only if S2 and S3 would have gone down would the shooter get the P. The so called hits on S2 and S3 (that did not fall) were merely poorly aimed shots on S4. Any other call and the spotters were only guessing the shooters intent.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I think a P is in order here.

It is awarded for not shooting targets S2 and S3 in the right order.

According to the flow chart;

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? YES

Assess No Misses

2. Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order? NO instructions called for S1, S4 rifle/pistol S2 S3.

Engage is the critical term here.

Assess Procedural.

 

From the RO1 Manual page 30

 

The shooter engaged S2 and S3 prior to S4. Wrong order. Hence a P.

Or does the Comstock rules negate the stage instructions.

 

Hope PWB can chime in here.

Aaaah Ha, the dreaded "E" word again. Read the flow chart using the word "hit" instead of engage. And yes the Comstock rule does apply, these were knockdowns. And the Stage Conventions apply also.

1. All knockdown shotgun targets may be reengaged until down.

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count.

 

Here's another example of what about the "E" word??

 

Stage instructions- Round count 10 Pistol. With 1st pistol engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep, P1,P1 - P2 - P3,P3 holster. With 2nd pistol engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep P1,P1 - P2 - P3,P3 holster. Shooter grabs 1st pistol and hits P1,P1 - P2. Then he aims at P3 and the hammer falls on a dud, hammer back another dud. He cycles the gun all the way around with no bang and holsters on an empty chamber. With 2nd pistol he shoots P3,P3, then P1,P1 - P2. He jacks out a couple of empties, replaces the rounds and finishes up on P3,P3. Now, does the shooter get a P?? By Glossory of Terms he "ENGAGED" R3 about eight or ten times.

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

This same stage with rifle, jacking out a couple of live rounds on P3 the shooter has options, countinue on with the correct sequence and reload two at the end, or take two misses and go back to P1. "Engaged" is in our glossory to define the shooter went through the motion of attempting to fire a round when they jacked out the live rounds. If you replace the word "engage" with "shoot" in the stage instructions the question of a P is removed.

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

ps; I never write stages using "with 1st pistol bla,bla,bla, holster" I just did that to add more fuel

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

If the rules are used as written and not as you might like them.

The flow chart says;

Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?

The RO1 training material defines engaged as;

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

There fore S2 and S3 were engaged out of order.

Should have been S1 S4 then rifle and pistol.

Then S2 and S3.

 

Engaged does not necesarily mean hit.

 

Again a P for the shooter.

I still hope PWB checks in on this thread.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

If S4 wasn't hit, it's simply a (non-charegeable) miss, which is a no call. Like RSE said, "Clean but ugly" and he gets laughed at a lot.....