Just Checking--Penalty for bringing a Lightning to the line with an open action

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Shooter loads lightning rifle with action open & never closes it.

Comes to the firing line with 10 rounds in the magazine, action open (nothing on carrier) & hammer back.

 

Correct call--Stage DQ for leaving loading table without hammer fully down???????

 

I believe that is the correct call, even though action is open and nothing is in carrier.

 

Am I correct here?

 

Because Lightning is so different than lever guns, we were not quite sure if that was the correct call.

 

Comments appreciated.

 

--Dawg

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Proper staging of rifle doesn't ask what kind. Hammer fully down on empty chamber.....

[Fingers McGee]

Shooter loads lightning rifle with action open & never closes it.

Comes to the firing line with 10 rounds in the magazine, action open (nothing on carrier) & hammer back.

 

Correct call--Stage DQ for leaving loading table without hammer fully down???????

 

I believe that is the correct call, even though action is open and nothing is in carrier.

 

Am I correct here?

 

Because Lightning is so different than lever guns, we were not quite sure if that was the correct call.

 

Comments appreciated.

 

--Dawg

 

SDQ would be my call.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Jack Houston # 35508]

YEP!!! SDQ

[Olen Rugged]

As far as I can tell there is no exception for the Lightning:

 

"Disqualification. Leaving the Loading Table with a hammer not fully down on an empty chamber or with a round under the firing pin of any firearm is a Stage

Disqualification".

 

Olen

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Dawg,

 

I agree with the others, SDQ is the appropriate call

 

I never gave the rule much thought until I failed to put the hammer fully down in my '97 when shooting WB and stoking the SG tube. When I picked it up to shoot it, I could not as it was on safety. When I realized what had happened, I told the TO it was a SDQ. I did not know how it could happen until the person next to me at the ULT showed me. I won't do that again.

 

Now, your post comes up. The gun in your post does not seem unsafe in that condition nor was mine.

 

I inquired about the reason for the penalty. I gather from the answer that it is easier to have one rule, "hammer down on an empty chamber" regardless of whether it is an unsafe condition or not.

 

I'm still not sure what I think of this...just thought I'd bring it up.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Nothin' special 'bout the Lightning....SDQ I reckon.

 

GG ~

[Manatee]

Interesting. With most rifles, a hammer that is not fully down presents a safety issue since the action is closed and a round MIGHT be in the chamber.

 

An open action would have a round on the carrier.

 

A Lightning has no round on the carrier after loading. And the gun must be loaded with the action open.

 

Personally, I'd give the guy a pass.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hi Allie:

Yup, that was the cause for the uncertainty.

The gun obviously wasn't a danger, but figured it was the same rule no matter what the gun.

 

Thanks to everyone for your comments

--Dawg

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

Never mind...

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Manatee makes a good point.

 

Now, technically, I'd say that an SDQ is the correct call, but given the unique way a Lightning is loaded, I'd say give him a pass, THE FIRST TIME, but then any time after that, do the SDQ. I think this is perfectly in line with the spirit and intent of the rules.

 

But, if it were to happen to me, I do have a Lightning, and I was given an SDQ, I'd not argue the point.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

H. K. & Manatee:

I used it as a learning situation.

Shooter realized what she did.

I was pretty sure but not positive, so I did not give her a penalty on that stage, but we did discuss it.

She is more aware, I'm now sure of the correct call.

Live and learn.

--Dawg

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

H. K. & Manatee:

I used it as a learning situation.

Shooter realized what she did.

I was pretty sure but not positive, so I did not give her a penalty on that stage, but we did discuss it.

She is more aware, I'm now sure of the correct call.

Live and learn.

--Dawg

 

Teaching is good. Not over-thinking it is good. Better to build the habit of EVERY rifle gets hammer down on an empty chamber. Nothing about that is unsafe, and it becomes mindlessly automatic. Besides, that's the rule.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

i have to go the other way here guys. NO CALL

 

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

 

the option you dont have is to have action closed with the hammer anywhere but fully down as was Allie Mo's case with the 97 and is the typical offense.

 

changed my mind. further review locates this, trumping the above;

 

Leaving the Loading Table with a hammer not fully down on an

empty chamber or with a round under the firing pin of any firearm is a Stage Disqualification.

 

CC

see tagline below

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

i have to go the other way here guys. NO CALL

 

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

 

the option you dont have is to have action closed with the hammer anywhere but fully down as was Allie Mo's case with the 97 and is the typical offense.

CC

see tagline below

That's safe for movement during a stage. Safe for leaving the LT is different.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Interesting and ironic. We had a gent come to the line with an open 73 on Saturday. Something was lose, maybe a screw but probably a spring, allowing the action to open on the walk from the LT. We accessed a SDQ, then after the fact I re-thought that position. I reckoned same as CC, to wit;

 

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

 

Found the TO, who happens to be a TG as well. We discussed it and reversed our ruling, letting the man go back and shoot the stage. At no time was the rifle unsafe, it never left his hand.

[Filthy Lucre, 55674L]

As a Lightning shooter. Good topic.

[Blood Washed SASS #79269]

Interesting and ironic. We had a gent come to the line with an open 73 on Saturday. Something was lose, maybe a screw but probably a spring, allowing the action to open on the walk from the LT. We accessed a SDQ, then after the fact I re-thought that position. I reckoned same as CC, to wit;

 

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

 

Found the TO, who happens to be a TG as well. We discussed it and reversed our ruling, letting the man go back and shoot the stage. At no time was the rifle unsafe, it never left his hand.

Hey Goody,

Are you sayin that this feller had his action closed and hammer down on his 73 and it opened up while he was walkin?

So that means the lever went from down to up (supposing it was being carried muzzle up)??? I gotta git my 73 worked on........it's still tooooo tight I reckin. lol Or mebbe you just meant it cracked open a little?? and what happened the rest of the times when he walked to the line??? I am a slow learner I guess.

Blood Washed

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Hey Goody,

Are you sayin that this feller had his action closed and hammer down on his 73 and it opened up while he was walkin?

So that means the lever went from down to up (supposing it was being carried muzzle up)??? I gotta git my 73 worked on........it's still tooooo tight I reckin. lol Or mebbe you just meant it cracked open a little?? and what happened the rest of the times when he walked to the line??? I am a slow learner I guess.

Blood Washed

 

As I said, something was lose, a very good gunsmith on our posse pulled the sideplates and repaired whatever the problem was. No one could say for sure when the gun actually opened, he may have been carrying muzzle down for all I know. In any event there was never a loaded round in a closed chamber, nor the threat of one as the gun was wide open. As for the other times he walked to the line I will have to plead ignorance, as he and another two fellows were shooting through and only joined our posse for one stage.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

SDQ...period... we make excuses for every stinkin' thing that happens in SASS. HOW-SOME-EVER...if it's a monthly he gets a warning after we all get to talk about it. Above the monthly level it's 999.99

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Bro,

 

In regards to a SDQ, I prefer Misses (5 seconds) x No. of required shots + 30 seconds.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "just call me a TTer" Mo

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

As I said, something was lose, a very good gunsmith on our posse pulled the sideplates and repaired whatever the problem was. No one could say for sure when the gun actually opened, he may have been carrying muzzle down for all I know. In any event there was never a loaded round in a closed chamber, nor the threat of one as the gun was wide open. As for the other times he walked to the line I will have to plead ignorance, as he and another two fellows were shooting through and only joined our posse for one stage.

Hold the phone. When ya move the lever at all on a 73, the firing pin extension contacts the hammer and starts cocking it. If yer hammer is down, AND ya got enough mainspring in it to pop a cap, it CAN'T open. If it opened, it was cocked.

 

Now 73 or a marlin might be open a tiny tad, as the lever is pushed by the finger lever safety, but a 73 with the HAMMER DOWN won't open more'n that, and a Marlin won't open more'n a little bit, even when carried level with the ground, lever facing down. (and mine are the world's loosest Marlins, trust me)

 

What CAN happen to either rifle, especially a Marlin, is when RE-STAGING em when empty, the open and empty gun can have it's lever fall partway closed (which by definition is still open, if not fully), but not the other way around IF the hammer is down.

[Manatee]

Teaching is good. Not over-thinking it is good. Better to build the habit of EVERY rifle gets hammer down on an empty chamber. Nothing about that is unsafe, and it becomes mindlessly automatic. Besides, that's the rule.

 

 

Ahhhh Grasshopper. Cat who jump onto hot stove will not do so in future.

 

....will not jump on cold stove either.

[Rye Miles #13621]

If the action is open and no round in the chamber on a lightning it's about as safe as it can get without being unloaded. I'd say NO CALL. Rye

[Manatee]

SDQ...period... we make excuses for every stinkin' thing that happens in SASS. HOW-SOME-EVER...if it's a monthly he gets a warning after we all get to talk about it. Above the monthly level it's 999.99

 

 

I love literalists. Eases the mind. Keeps thinking to a minimum.

 

Darwinistic? Sure. But they don't reproduce then, do they?

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Ahhhh Grasshopper. Cat who jump onto hot stove will not do so in future.

 

....will not jump on cold stove either.

 

 

And yer making the point exactly. When we build these basic safety rules, it is best that they be so simple even a lightning owner can do it. You don't have to think about it. When ya load a levergun, do you THINK ABOUT putting the hammer down first? No, ya learned that's the SASS way and ya do it. If ya BUY a Lightning, ya gotta learn a new protocol, (load, close, hammer down), and just DO IT. Ain't none of these rifles fires with an empty chamber, but we put the hammer down.....

[Doc Shapiro]

Goody, sounds like the '73 in your example had a problem. Fixing the problem is the right call. Not a SDQ.

 

As for the Lightning rifle in question, according the rules, it's a SDQ. But dang blast it! That's a right safe condition for the rifle to be in when coming to the line and I'd have a hard time calling it (not saying I wouldn't mind you).

 

Where's PWB, we ought to get a ruling on this one.

 

 

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Goody, sounds like the '73 in your example had a problem. Fixing the problem is the right call. Not a SDQ.

 

As for the Lightning rifle in question, according the rules, it's a SDQ. But dang blast it! That's a right safe condition for the rifle to be in when coming to the line and I'd have a hard time calling it (not saying I wouldn't mind you).

 

Where's PWB, we ought to get a ruling on this one.

 

 

Doc, while you are correct, it isn't simply about the Lightning or even lightning owners. It's about crafting a rule that can easily be followed and enforced by any cowpoke who happens to run the LT. We could argue that those leverguns with a crossbolt safety need not have the hammer down if the safety was engaged, etc..... One size fits all is simplest and safest.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I love literalists. Eases the mind. Keeps thinking to a minimum.

 

Darwinistic? Sure. But they don't reproduce then, do they?

That's what rules are for, Sea Cow. You seem to prefer the devil-spawn relativists that become Supreme Court judges who interpret everything based on whether it makes Lindsay Lohan feel good about her thefts this week. It leads to over-thinking to the point that even a gunsmith can't figure out that a '73 can't cock itself open unless it's so unsafe that it shouldn't be shot.

 

Talk about "as safe as anything can be without being unloaded". What about a Colt at 1st click on an empty cylinder? or... well we could go on.

 

It's simple... and therefore profound; HAMMER DOWN... not 1/2 down or 1 click down or... I got a lightening down... IT'S HAMMER DOWN.

 

Comprende?

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

 

As for the Lightning rifle in question, according the rules, it's a SDQ. But dang blast it! That's a right safe condition for the rifle to be in when coming to the line and I'd have a hard time calling it (not saying I wouldn't mind you).

 

Where's PWB, we ought to get a ruling on this one.

 

I guess this is one of those things that we can bring up with the TG's. I totally agree, it's the right safe condition for the rifle to be when coming to the line.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I guess this is one of those things that we can bring up with the TG's. I totally agree, it's the right safe condition for the rifle to be when coming to the line.

REALLY? Accidentally grab the slide when staging the rifle and it chambers a round that's loose in the carrier. That's safer than action closed and hammer down? NO... it's not... nor is it a better competitive position. In fact, one could argue the same thing with any lever gun. OPEN ACTION is not safer than simply closed/ hammer down on empty chamber.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Goody, sounds like the '73 in your example had a problem. Fixing the problem is the right call. Not a SDQ.

 

As for the Lightning rifle in question, according the rules, it's a SDQ. But dang blast it! That's a right safe condition for the rifle to be in when coming to the line and I'd have a hard time calling it (not saying I wouldn't mind you).

 

Where's PWB, we ought to get a ruling on this one.

 

22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification.

 

This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm.

SHB p.24/ROI p.19

[Big Jake1001]

Did an edit of my post because what I said was wrong. Filthy Lucre steered me in the right direction. Just sayin'

 

Big Jake

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Goody you should try assessing those penalties instead of trying to access them. Might have a more harmonious outcome. But then you have a lot of company around here.

 

As far as the OP goes: things and times change. As I have stated here before, in the dim dark past some of us used to come to the line with the hammer fully back chamber empty on lever guns. These were stock 92s and Win 94s with the Mack truck springs. We were being gamey, not having to overcome the hammer resistance. No one said anything. May have been technically illegal even back then but we were pretty ignorant of the formal rules.

 

Times and things change. One size does not necessarily fit all.

[Anvil Al #59168]

What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Just because there plumbing is different don't change anything.

It is TO SIMPLE for the lightning to follow the same rules as the rest.

Don't see any reason to make an exception for them.

Even though safe that way. It is just to simple for them to follow the rules that

we now have. And they should do so.