WTC: Target failure benefits shooter

[Equanimous Phil]

This happened at our club's annual last year and popped up in my mind as I am currently writing a stage using the same target array. A KD target releases a swinger/pendulum plate. The swinger target is visible at all times.

 

Stage instructions request to engage KD with rifle until down. Then, with remaining rounds engage swinger target. There was a possibility to make up rounds additionally used for the KD and/or misses, but that doesn't matter.

 

Shooter hits and downs KD with first shot, but the pendulum is not released (due to unknown reasons). He very briefly hesitates before he dumps the remaining 9 rounds on the not moving swinger target and is considerably faster with the rifle on that stage than every other shooter. TO doesn't interfere and lets him finish the stage. After a short discussion, no reshoot was mandated and his time was scored as the shooter followed all stage instructions.

 

The correct call seems to be made according the SHB, the references I found regarding target failures:

• In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.” For safety reasons a target on the ground should never be engaged.
• if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer failure/unrecorded time, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted.

 

I guess most shooters would've stopped after such an obvious prop failure and asked for a reshoot. In the end, it was a huge advantage for this "lucky shooter" who took his chance. So, what's your call and thoughts?

 

[Leroy Luck]

No call, but offer a reshoot for the prop failure. Which I would doubt the shooter would take. 

[Scarlett]

This same thing happened in NY. The instructions PRIOR to shooting the stage were, IF the swinger does not activate for any reason, keep shooting. It was such an advantage to the couple of shooters for whom it did NOT fall, that I and others, I planned to hit it where it wouldn’t fall but the beeper beeped. 🤪
 

This was one of several irritations regarding the match and compounded some frustrations for me. This was a state match and not an annual. 
 

IMHO, your group made the correct call. As Fire and Fall Back says, “I’d rather be lucky than good!”

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

Hey it happens. Sometime it benefits you and sometimes it doesn't. Many times I have seen a 5 second bonus popper bird break as it was being thrown up, the shooter shoots at it anyway, and they are given the 5 second bonus. So you move on....

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Shooter followed instructions  record the time offer a reshoot due to prop failure  next shoooter.

Rafe 

[Fretless]

Rules thoughts:

The correct call was made.  The question now is how to avoid that situation in the future.  My thinking is that any number of small changes in the stage directions would do the trick.  You want people to shoot at the moving pendulum, not the static pendulum.  Make the fact that it's moving a prerequisite to engaging it.  That way if it never moves, the shooter has two options.  One would be to stop because the target failure made it impossible for them to follow the stage directions.  They get a reshoot.  The other would be to take a P for engaging the static pendulum.  Or...just simply state in the stage directions that if it doesn't swing the shooter will have to reshoot the stage.  That way there is no P option.

 

Not rules thoughts:

Clean, polish, and lubricate all friction points.  Add weight to the bottom of the pendulum 

Edited October 23 by Fretless

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Buncha BS.

 

The prop failure hurt all the other shooters that didn't get a static target.

 

Whoever would accept their time on a Swinger stage where the Swinger didn't "Swing" is someone that I don't want to have anything to do with. They're cheaters in my book.

 

Phantom

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Buncha BS.

 

The prop failure hurt all the other shooters that didn't get a static target.

 

Whoever would accept their time on a Swinger stage where the Swinger didn't "Swing" is someone that I don't want to have anything to do with. They're cheaters in my book.

 

Phantom

But... they DID do what they should have done on the clock. Yes, I would reshoot as well, but the shooter cannot be penalized for a prop/target failure OR incomplete (bad) stage instructions. That's why for bigger matches, you go over your stages... and then go over them again then have others look over them as well.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Requiring a reshoot in this case might bog a posse’s progress in a major match.  I would not advise it.  I would shoot the stage as the shooter did and not stop.  Stopping might earn misses for all my unfired rounds.  
 

There are other situations where prop issues give a shooter an advantage.  A clay might be thrown broken and therefore be declared a hit.  Multiple plates might fall on a plate rack.  The downed targets cannot be missed.  At a Plainsman match yesterday some small targets fell off their posts.  They were to be reengaged.  Shooters just lobbed rounds in their general direction without needing to aim carefully.  Such occurrences are common in CAS.

 

 

Edited October 23 by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

But... they DID do what they should have done on the clock. Yes, I would reshoot as well, but the shooter cannot be penalized for a prop/target failure OR incomplete (bad) stage instructions. That's why for bigger matches, you go over your stages... and then go over them again then have others look over them as well.

This situation has nothing to do with going over the Stages.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Requiring a reshoot in this case might bog a posse’s progress in a major match.  I would not advise it.  I would shoot the stage as the shooter did and not stop.  Stopping might earn misses for all my unfired rounds.

No one said to stop the shooter. You do and record the time. Then go to the MD.

 

3 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

There are other situations where prop issues give a shooter an advantage.  A clay might be thrown broken and therefore be declared a hit.  Multiple plates might fall on a plate rack.  The downed targets cannot be missed.  At a Plainsman match yesterday some small targets fell off their posts.  They were to be reengaged.  Shooters just lobbed rounds in their general direction without needing to aim carefully.  Such occurrences are common in CAS.

This is a significant advantage...and there are reasons why you don't see clay birds in competitions that matter any longer.

 

What the decision has now done to the match is divide it into to completely different matches. One with an active swinger and one without. Problem is these two completely different matches are scored as one.

 

I would suggest that those that don't see this as a problem are those that frankly are not into CAS for the competition...

 

Phantom

[Captain Bill Burt]

I think the correct call was made.  I also think the cowboy way would be for the shooter to request a reshoot.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This situation has nothing to do with going over the Stages.

 

Phantom

But... if you use a little imagination, you may just be able to see where a little diligence in writing the instructions could avoid this situation.

Should be offered a reshoot for target failure and should take it. Ya good?

[Totes Magoats]

I had a similar thing happen at a Central Texas club.  The reset rope for the swinger was not pulled back from the firing line and when I released it, the swinger only moved about 6 inches.

 

I discovered I was actually standing on the reset rope and had no idea.

 

Totes

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

But... if you use a little imagination, you may just be able to see where a little diligence in writing the instructions could avoid this situation.

Should be offered a reshoot for target failure and should take it. Ya good?

The assumptions that some folks make about another's ability to comprehend is fascinating...

 

This kind of failure is significant...question: Is this any different than having a Timer record a time for a shooter that is obviously incorrect?

 

Phantom

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I very much agree that the situation described by the OP created a significant unfair competition.  However, I would attempt to shoot the stage to completion and only stop if instructed by the TO.  If told I needed to reshoot I would not protest.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

And the stretches made in some explanations are fascinating.

Not even close to the same thing; one is taking advantage of bad instructions, the other is just cheating.

You can keep arguing and demeaning if you prefer though.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

And the stretches made in some explanations are fascinating.

Not even close to the same thing; one is taking advantage of bad instructions, the other is just cheating.

You can keep arguing and demeaning if you prefer though.

Demeaning...show me where.

 

What were the bad instructions...exactly?

 

Phantom

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Demeaning...show me where.

 

What were the bad instructions...exactly?

 

Phantom

"The assumptions that some folks make about another's ability to comprehend is fascinating..." Bring anything to mind???

If, now just if the instructions said that the activator must activate before continuing the stage, the shooter would stop and start over and the ambiguity over whether to stop or continue and whether to offer (and to take) a reshoot or not would be solved. Make sense?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

"The assumptions that some folks make about another's ability to comprehend is fascinating..." Bring anything to mind???

You have a interesting definition of demeaning.

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

If, now just if the instructions said that the activator must activate before continuing the stage, the shooter would stop and start over and the ambiguity over whether to stop or continue and whether to offer (and to take) a reshoot or not would be solved. Make sense?

The shooter should NEVER stop during a stage unless instructed to cease fire...but you know this. I would assume that you also shoot at a lot of big matches and do walk-thru's. I can forgive a MD for not covering in the Write-Up the unlikely situation (in their mind), of the Swinger not swinging. 

 

So now back to the actual WTC issue which actually has to do with whether this is a simple "Prop" failure or whether this kind of situation warrants a forced reshoot. 

 

You poopoo the analogy of the Timer showing a time that is obviously not correct. Without using the word "Prop", what's the difference?

 

Phantom

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Glad to see you're back in form; missed that.

Demean (my definition) on!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

23 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Glad to see you're back in form; missed that.

Demean (my definition) on!

You seem to be unable to answer my question...engage in meaningful debate without a personal attack.

 

That's fine. Says a lot about you.

 

Perhaps someone else will take off where you left off...

 

Phantom

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I engaged just fine, you don't seem to want to accept what I have to say.

Guess I haven't been to enough "high-level" matches and done walk-throughs with the best.

My loss, I guess. I'll have to wallow in mediocracy. Oh me...

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

23 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I engaged just fine, you don't seem to want to accept what I have to say.

Guess I haven't been to enough "high-level" matches and done walk-throughs with the best.

My loss, I guess. I'll have to wallow in mediocracy. Oh me...

I've redirected questions in response to you and the best you can do is throw out attacks on me...not my arguments/positions.

 

What's with all the mockery? It's rather childish and certainly unproductive.

 

Phantom

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, Totes Magoats said:

I had a similar thing happen at a Central Texas club.  The reset rope for the swinger was not pulled back from the firing line and when I released it, the swinger only moved about 6 inches.

 

I discovered I was actually standing on the reset rope and had no idea.

 

Totes

Gamer! 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

At a shooting competition prop failure should be a mandatory reshoot. Apparently not at a SASS match. . A clay bird popper that breaks upon release doesn't add any time to the shooters score but they usually automatically get credit for the hit. The example given was a big advantage to shooters who didn't have to shoot the moving target.

 

To the degree possible you want shooters to  compete against each other shooting the same match. If the target didn't activate for enough shooters so that reshoots would hold up the match you need to throw that stage out. If at a large match it only occurs for a couple of shooters you do have enough time to require reshoots.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

At a shooting competition prop failure should be a mandatory reshoot. Apparently not at a SASS match. . A clay bird popper that breaks upon release doesn't add any time to the shooters score but they usually automatically get credit for the hit. The example given was a big advantage to shooters who didn't have to shoot the moving target.

 

To the degree possible you want shooters to  compete against each other shooting the same match. If the target didn't activate for enough shooters so that reshoots would hold up the match you need to throw that stage out. If at a large match it only occurs for a couple of shooters you do have enough time to require reshoots.

Absolutely 100% agree!!!

 

This prop failure gets a Freebie is stoopid!

 

Phantom

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Back to the OP. Given what happened and the controversy it creates, why would you consider using that array again? Seems risky and a great way to alienate your shooters. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Examples of "PROP FAILURE" & how they should be handling by the Timer Operator from the Range Officer Training Course:

 

Quote

 PROP FAILURE

Given the nature of “Old West” props and stage fronts, failures sometime happen. Prop failures include: Fronts falling down, gun blocks falling over, tables collapsing, fences falling over, activating mechanisms of targets not working and other such occurrences. In the event of a prop failure, the Timer Operator should be prepared to make a determination of whether or not the shooter shall continue the course of fire or cease fire immediately. The shooter will not be penalized for a prop failure.

RO2 p.9

 

If a "cease fire" is called for a prop faiure, the shooter MUST reshoot the stage or, if refused, given a DNF (scored the same a a SDQ)

 

 

Edited October 24 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt

[Equanimous Phil]

I appreciate all of your inputs! Most of your comments sum up my own train of thoughts. My feelings basically second those two statements:

 

16 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The prop failure hurt all the other shooters that didn't get a static target.

 

16 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think the correct call was made.  I also think the cowboy way would be for the shooter to request a reshoot.

 

On the other hand, it seems kind of unfair to me to shove the responsibility to the shooter. Yes, a reshoot should have been mandated, but by the rule book that should cover such range failures adequately:

 

13 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

At a shooting competition prop failure should be a mandatory reshoot.

 

As for:

4 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Back to the OP. Given what happened and the controversy it creates, why would you consider using that array again? Seems risky and a great way to alienate your shooters. 

 

Since I've joined CAS and this club in 2018 this swinger was used now and then over the years but I only saw it fail this one time. Basically, it's impossible to fail if the rope is correctly attached to the swinger and the KD. The pendulum itself has ball bearings and already very heavy counter weights. I suppose someone didn't pay enough attention with the rope while resetting the targets.

But as I know now that a failure CAN happen I want the situation to be covered. I'll probably just add something to the stage description. Another solution would be to hide the target behind a cover until it's released.

 

P.S.:

I'd like to give you a little idea what a CAS happening looks like here in Switzerland. Whether it is a monthly or a club's annual match, there is only one posse of maybe five to ten pards using just one bay. We have to set up all targets and props, move them around between stages, and put them away at the end of the day.

There isn't anything like a national match. To attend a bigger match we have to go to Germany, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, Slovakia etc.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Examples of "PROP FAILURE" & how they should be handling by the Timer Operator from the Range Officer Training Course:

 

Quote

 PROP FAILURE

Given the nature of “Old West” props and stage fronts, failures sometime happen. Prop failures include: Fronts falling down, gun blocks falling over, tables collapsing, fences falling over, activating mechanisms of targets not working and other such occurrences. In the event of a prop failure, the Timer Operator should be prepared to make a determination of whether or not the shooter shall continue the course of fire or cease fire immediately. The shooter will not be penalized for a prop failure.

RO2 p.9

 

If a "cease fire" is called for a prop faiure, the shooter MUST reshoot the stage or, if refused, given a DNF (scored the same a a SDQ)

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

Once again this is an example of Timer Operators not knowing the job.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Once again this is an example of Timer Operators not knowing the job.  

Can you elaborate on this answer?

 

Phantom

[wyliefoxEsquire]

25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

28 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Once again this is an example of Timer Operators not knowing the job.  

Can you elaborate on this answer?

 

Phantom

Yes, some of the WTC post on this forum expose the reality that some TO's do not know the rules.

For example  "WTC - 170 rule" and "Walking in front of guns"

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Yes, some of the WTC post on this forum expose the reality that some TO's do not know the rules.

For example  "WTC - 170 rule" and "Walking in front of guns"

Okay...just confused as your post made reference to PWB's post...had to do with Prop Failures so I thought your comment had something to do with Prop Failures. You even specifically said "Once again this is an example of Timer Operators not knowing the job.".

 

So...yeah...I'm confused.

 

Phantom

[wyliefoxEsquire]

4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

15 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Yes, some of the WTC post on this forum expose the reality that some TO's do not know the rules.

For example  "WTC - 170 rule" and "Walking in front of guns"

Okay...just confused as your post made reference to PWB's post...had to do with Prop Failures so I thought your comment had something to do with Prop Failures. You even specifically said "Once again this is an example of Timer Operators not knowing the job.".

 

So...yeah...I'm confused.

 

Phantom

Agreed, My post was a comment in general regarding TO's not doing the job.   

Regarding Prop Failures, broken clays and tombstone racks with sympathetic falls can be examples of Failure.  I have never experienced anyone asking for a reshoot after a broken clay or sympathetic plate fall.  As PWB quoted Timer Operator should be prepared to make a determination of whether or not the shooter shall continue the course of fire or cease fire immediately   .  My point, in the OP, it was clear that the TO did nothing regarding the Failure and therefore gave the shooter an unfair advantage.  The TO did not go against any SASS rules/guidelines.   From the OP "In the end, it was a huge advantage for this "lucky shooter" who took his chance. So, what's your call and thoughts? "  IMO, unless the match guidelines state how to handle the pendulum Prop Failure, the actions (or lack of) of the TO could determine winners of the annual match.