Bad Primers

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Been having some bad primers lately; do the go-around once, twice and still no bang. Sucks the primers have gone up so much and I'm getting more bad ones than I ever had. So, it occurred to me, what if I knew I'm having this problem, do the once-around then open the gate, pull one off my belt and fire to complete the pistol string. Would I be correct in calling a malfunction and laying the pistol down and proceeding; even though I've completed the pistols correctly? Think I know, just wanna get some feedback. Thanks. RM

[Rye Miles #13621]

Me too, and they were Federals!! I had 3 that didn’t go off Saturday! 
Grrrrr……..

[Tarheel Doc]

Who made the primers? Pistol you are using? Light springs? It is not always the primer could be a gun malfunction? More details would be helpful to provide the best advice. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I had a batch of "bad primers" several years ago.  I took several of bad rounds home and took them apart.  The primers had already been fired.  That means that my 650 almost punched the spent primer out, removing the firing pin dimple, and then reseated the the spent primer.  

 

I solved this problem by getting a Lee universal decrimping die. (About $20.00)   Now I deprime all my cases before cleaning.  That way, I know there are no spent primers in the cases.  I have not had any "bad primers" since I started this procedure.  

 

Pull apart your bad round and see if the primer had been fired.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Been having some bad primers lately; do the go-around once, twice and still no bang. Sucks the primers have gone up so much and I'm getting more bad ones than I ever had. So, it occurred to me, what if I knew I'm having this problem, do the once-around then open the gate, pull one off my belt and fire to complete the pistol string. Would I be correct in calling a malfunction and laying the pistol down and proceeding; even though I've completed the pistols correctly? Think I know, just wanna get some feedback. Thanks. RM

What brand?

What gun mods?

Try the rounds in another gun.

Today's Federals, are not as 'soft' as they use to be.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

Sometimes it is just that the primers were not seated properly when reloading.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I don't really think any of the above apply; the guns (yes, both my pistols and my rifle have experienced dud primers) have been modified and the pistols, specifically, set off CCIs and Winchesters regularly with no problems... until recently. BTW, due to supplies, I have started into a supply of Remingtons. I have not pulled the primers to check if they have been fired ( I will when it happens again) but they all have big dents in them where the firing pins have struck them. Not really my question though; I get some primers are garbage. My question is whether I would call a malfunction and ground the pistol after reloading into the sixth chamber and finishing the string, know the bad primer round is still in the gun. Thank you

[Equanimous Phil]

6 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

My question is whether I would call a malfunction and ground the pistol after reloading into the sixth chamber and finishing the string

If you wouldn't declare malfunction I guess you'd get a Miss at the ULT because of an unfired round in the revolver. 

Edited April 23 by Equanimous Phil

[Tarheel Doc]

Unless your goal is to shoot clean at all costs it saves you more time to take the miss than spending time trying to reload a pistol. I have never attempted a pistol reload during a stage. I think you are asking for more problems. Personally I would get your guns checked out. Although Remington primers do give me some issues with my Rugers because I use lightened hammer springs. Try a heavier spring and see if that helps? 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

2 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

If you wouldn't declare malfunction I guess you'd get a Miss at the ULT because of an unfired round in the revolver. 

But there WAS a fired round when I pulled off my belt and fired for the round that did not go off. maybe this would never come up... and maybe it would. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A malfunction is called for the GUN failing to work and you no longer continue to use it.  I am pretty sure that leaving that round you attempted to fire and which FTFd in the cylinder is NOT a MISS nor an overloading of the gun.  So, don't call malfunction and you should be fine.

 

good luck, GJ

[Tarheel Doc]

Where I have shot previously. If gun is declared broke shooter is assessed a miss for each unfired round? 

[Captain Clark]

14 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

My question is whether I would call a malfunction and ground the pistol after reloading into the sixth chamber and finishing the string, know the bad primer round is still in the gun. Thank you

No reason to call malfunction or ground gun IMO. The hammer will be down on a spent round after firing the cartridge you loaded to replace the dud. If the “ bad primer” hasn’t gone off after a couple go- arounds, it’s clearly a dud. As has already been mentioned, the time factor at this point will likely be favoring just taking a miss versus the cycling, reload, etc in trying to correct the unfired round.

[Equanimous Phil]

22 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

But there WAS a fired round when I pulled off my belt and fired for the round that did not go off.

 

16 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I am pretty sure that leaving that round you attempted to fire and which FTFd in the cylinder is NOT a MISS nor an overloading of the gun.

 

13 minutes ago, Tarheel Doc said:

Where I have shot previously. If gun is declared broke shooter is assessed a miss for each unfired round? 

 

SHB V27.4 states on p.14 that 'Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty.'

 

Probably, that rule was meant to address overloaded revolvers, but it's written as it is. And an unfired round is still unfired if you attempted to fire it. However, later on p.21 and p.27, the word 'inadvertently' is added to the context which changes a lot. Someone should just add 'inadvertently' on p.14 and everything would be unequivocal 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I had a batch of "bad primers" several years ago.  I took several of bad rounds home and took them apart.  The primers had already been fired.  That means that my 650 almost punched the spent primer out, removing the firing pin dimple, and then reseated the the spent primer....

I doubt it.  Think about it, the press never removes the dimple from any primer that gets punched out completely, so why would it remove the dimple from one that was only partially punched out?  And I don't know about the 650, but on my 550 a primer that is only pushed partially out (or a new one partially seated) will not allow the shell plate to turn.

[Hoss]

For the OP question:

you would not have to declare a malfunction if you put in 6th round and shot it. Hammer would be down on fired case. I suppose you could call it broke gun and lay it down if you wanted to. 
 

if you did not load and fire the 6th round you definitely should call broke gun and lay it down, because if the dud round is under hammer you’ve earned a SDQ. It’s very easy to lose track of where the dud round is when doing a ho-around. 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

If I did not reload in the 6th chamber and took the miss for the round that did not go off, I would definitely call the malfunction, but my question had to do with if I did load a 6th round and the round that did not go off (not the same as unfired, in my opinion) is still in the cylinder.

Boy, that oughta set it off!

[Cypress Sun]

2 hours ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

Sometimes it is just that the primers were not seated properly when reloading.

 

If these were in a rifle, I could agree, but these were in a pistol...high primers would have almost surely locked the pistol up unless you advanced the cylinder by hand.

 

I've heard these complaints quite a few times since the plague affected manufacturing. I have not heard the FTF issues with semi-autos, only with revolvers with lightened springs. 

 

My guess, quality control issues coupled with harder cup materials.

[Equanimous Phil]

4 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

the round that did not go off (not the same as unfired, in my opinion)

If it's not unfired it is fired. But a round that didn't go off may still fire on the 2nd or the 3rd or the 10th hit, or worst case spontaniously after a couple of seconds if it's a hang fire. I witnessed a hang fire some weeks ago on a 9mm at an IPSC match: first a click and when the competitor wanted to rack the slide the gun went bang.

A round might be 'attempted' or 'engaged' or whatever. But as long the powder is unburnt it is unfired and hazardous.

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I doubt it.  Think about it, the press never removes the dimple from any primer that gets punched out completely, so why would it remove the dimple from one that was only partially punched out?  And I don't know about the 650, but on my 550 a primer that is only pushed partially out (or a new one partially seated) will not allow the shell plate to turn.

 

I've reseated a spent primer multiple times over the years on a Dillon 550B. It punches the spent primer out, hangs onto it on the pin, reseats the spent primer and continues on with the reloading process.

 

It is noticeable during the inspection...but you do have to inspect them. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I really don't think the old primer or seating of a new one is the issue. I check every single round I load in a cartridge checker before they get boxed and look at all of the primers to make sure none get flipped (yes, my Dillon does that once in a while). When I load the cylinders, I give em a spin to check for high primers before setting on the empty chamber. I did not always do this but it doesn't take but a second and removes another potential problem. I'm convinced the primers are just junk and even after a couple firing pin hits and a good dent, they remain unfired. No pop, no pfft, nothing. I would think that in the interest of safety, due to the whole hang-fire thing mentioned, I'd have to call malfunction and ground it; even though I reloaded and finished the string.

[Matthew Duncan]

3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

 

 

SHB V27.4 states on p.14 that 'Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty.'

 

Probably, that rule was meant to address overloaded revolvers, but it's written as it is. And an unfired round is still unfired if you attempted to fire it.

Replace the “dud” round with one from your belt.  BANG!  No unified rounds left in revolver.   Next problem…

[Kid Rich]

22 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I don't really think any of the above apply; the guns (yes, both my pistols and my rifle have experienced dud primers) have been modified and the pistols, specifically, set off CCIs and Winchesters regularly with no problems... until recently. BTW, due to supplies, I have started into a supply of Remingtons. I have not pulled the primers to check if they have been fired ( I will when it happens again) but they all have big dents in them where the firing pins have struck them. Not really my question though; I get some primers are garbage. My question is whether I would call a malfunction and ground the pistol after reloading into the sixth chamber and finishing the string, know the bad primer round is still in the gun. Thank you

I've had some misfires with Rem primers and discovered that they are a little harder to seat with a 550. I checked and had about 10% with primers not seated all the way. I talked with another shooter that used Rem primers and he had the same problem.

kR

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

They don't seem to be, at least running my finger across them and running the cylinder, to be high and the dent in them should definitely have set them off.

I will have a look next time it happens to see if they have been fired. Thanks.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

On 4/23/2024 at 3:24 AM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Been having some bad primers lately; do the go-around once, twice and still no bang. Sucks the primers have gone up so much and I'm getting more bad ones than I ever had. So, it occurred to me, what if I knew I'm having this problem, do the once-around then open the gate, pull one off my belt and fire to complete the pistol string. Would I be correct in calling a malfunction and laying the pistol down and proceeding; even though I've completed the pistols correctly? Think I know, just wanna get some feedback. Thanks. RM

 

No need to declare a malfunction and ground the revolver if the hammer is down on the last fired round.

(but no penalty if you do...and no "miss" for the "unfired round" if it has been replaced).

You also have the option to load a 6th round in the empty chamber of the other revolver to compete the sequence.

REF: RELOAD CHOICES p.2

The TO should be aware that a 6th round was loaded in the cylinder after the FTF and "go around" in an attempt to fire the "dud" round.
The ULTO should be informed and shown the defective round as the shooter clears that revolver at the ULT.

Edited April 24 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

On 4/23/2024 at 6:11 AM, Equanimous Phil said:

If you wouldn't declare malfunction I guess you'd get a Miss at the ULT because of an unfired round in the revolver. 

 

23 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

SHB V27.4 states on p.14 that 'Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty.'

 

Probably, that rule was meant to address overloaded revolvers, but it's written as it is. And an unfired round is still unfired if you attempted to fire it. However, later on p.21 and p.27, the word 'inadvertently' is added to the context which changes a lot. Someone should just add 'inadvertently' on p.14 and everything would be unequivocal 

 

If the shooter loads a round without ejecting the round that failed to fire, the "dud" round would have been left "on purpose"...not "inadvertently".
That is meant to cover unfired rounds in a revolver with a (declared) malfunction.

If a revolver has been "overloaded" at the LT, it means that the shooter holstered/changed location with the hammer down on a live/unfired round.

The penalty for doing THAT makes any 5-second "miss" penalty irrelevant. 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Great info, Thanks PWB

[Equanimous Phil]

49 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

If the shooter loads a round without ejecting the round that failed to fire, the "dud" round would have been left "on purpose"...not "inadvertently".

That's what I meant, the word 'inadvertently' is important but missing on p. 14. 

[Griff]

In answer to your original question;  Yes, that would be one course of action... especially if you cocked the hammer after firing that loaded round.  Otherwise you risk having an unfired round (dud primer or not) under the hammer an suffer those consequences.  As long as you didn't cock the hammer after firing that last shot, it would be hammer down on a spent round, no penalty.  The "unfired round" penalty would only apply IF you didn't load a sixth round to fire the fifth round.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

That's what I meant, the word 'inadvertently' is important but missing on p. 14. 

 

There are some situations in which leaving an unfired round in a revolver on purpose would be scored as a miss.

(e.g. if a shooter miscounts the number of rounds fired and chooses to NOT redraw the revolver and fire it).

 

We're NOT going to list every possible scenario and the applicable assessment of penalties (if any).

Individual circumstances will dictate the call.