If you do buy a EV , you might not want a Hyundai

[Captain Bill Burt]

15 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

I;m not a "fanboy."  I'm just sick and tired of the double standard.  The new technology must be perfect and the infrastructure must be 10 years ahead of demand before you will "trust" it.  

Respectfully. I participate in the Camaro sixth gen forum. Surprisingly there are a fair number of EV fanboys over there. They sound just like you.

 

EV’s are a fire hazard.

 

Resale value is suspect.

Battery replacement is very expensive.

 

Installing in home charging is expensive.

 

Charging stations are not plentiful and many current ones are often broken. 
 

Charging is slow.

 

Ranges are inadequate and almost always far overstated.

 

The grid is not ready for large scale EV adoption.

 

EVs are not green in production and often not in use depending upon the source of electricity.

 

They don’t work well in the cold.

 

They don’t work well in the heat.

 

They’re very heavy, damaging roads and resulting in much more pollution from tire degradation.

 

The government is trying to force us to use them.

 

Subjective, but to me they’re boring disposable appliances.

 

People who do road trips with lots of gear (many cowboys) see their travel time increase exponentially.

 

If they were great, they wouldn’t need subsidies. We wouldn’t see the government deliberately increasing the cost of ICE vehicles. We wouldn’t see ICE bans. If EVs were great they would survive on their own, like ICE vehicles did when they replaced horses.

 

They don’t because they’re a product of woke thinking in conjunction with a corrupt nanny state.

 

EVs are inferior technology with extremely limited usefulness forced on us by idiots.

[JD Lud]

Believe this can all be summed up with a classic line.  “Don’t hate the player, hate the game”

 

also, remember not everyone can use or wants a small car to begin with…but for those in the market here is a good example.

 

2024 base model civic to lease is 269 a month and 3599 down.  Tesla Model3 was 294 a month and 3,400 down.  This is courtesy of the government incentives as pointed out…but for less than 25 bucks a month difference I would take this car vs a civic any day of the week unless making long trips that charging would be a pain.

 

At buc-cees last night there were maybe 3 other Teslas at the dozen or so super chargers.  Two of them the people were sitting in them waiting and the other was a Toyota Tacoma someone just parked on purpose in an EV charging spot.  It would be a big adjustment to not just pump gas and go but rather wait an hour or so each time if you couldn’t charge at home.

 

 

 

 

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

8 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

The same reason that all vehicles don't have the same engines, transmissions, etc. Car makers like to do things their own way.  

All gasoline powered vehicles use the same gasoline. I am asking for all evs to use the same battery pack so that any ev can get a new battery at any service facility. Pull in, get your battery  exchanged and drive on, just like getting  a tank of gas.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

2 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

All gasoline powered vehicles use the same gasoline. I am asking for all evs to use the same battery pack so that any ev can get a new battery at any service facility. Pull in, get your battery  exchanged and drive on, just like getting  a tank of gas.

I've mentioned this before: About 20 years or so ago, I saw something on Discovery that described this very thing. I thought then that it was a great idea, and still think so. But both the cars and batteries would have to be substantially re-engineered for it to happen. And ALL the car companies would have to agree on the design. I don't see THAT happening any time soon. 

[Pb Mark]

Kind of interesting thread.

 

I see two guests pumping up EV's here.  Not a single real member of this group unless I missed something. Little real support of EV's is indicative of the marketing and taxpayer money spent trying to force the public to buy and support EV's.  Nothing more.  

 

What next?  Will the auto insurance companies be paid to manipulate?  Will we need to carry our EV card in order to enter stores?  Will our health insurance increase if we do not buy one?  This is a flop. I'll trade you a Snickers Bar for an EV, then maybe.  Push that thing into a lake and then collect the fish...

 

They have their uses too.  Inside buildings and places like underground cities.  Tesla and Musk will possibly use them on his stated future desired home on Mars.  People in congested cities will use them if driving short distances.  Busses.  Trash trucks.  People who simply want one, etc.

 

Maybe if they would have totally changed the battery design.  It was totally feasible when this whole game began, to build liquid electrolyte batteries.  All gas stations could have installed electrolyte tanks.   To recharge the battery, pull up to the pump, pump out the old and pump in the new electrolyte just like fueling a gasoline car.  Many choices for different transportation models are available.  Most will probably flop until there is a real need, or fuel economy requirements simply destroy the viability of ICE.

[Subdeacon Joe]

14 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Guess what aggravates me most about the attitude of some of the EV crowd is that they belittle, berate, scold, ridicule or whatever you want to call it and then in nearly the same breath want to borrow your ICE car or truck because theirs doesn’t have enough juice or can’t haul enough or whatever and please, oh, please, oh please, oh please let me borrow yours. 

 

Sort of like people who belittle you for owning a "gas guzzling pick up" and praising their fuel efficient little car (I can drive from Chula Vista to Eureka on half of my 10 gallon tank!), then wanting to borrow it when they need to haul more than a loaf of bread and carton of milk.  That's all about the person and says nothing about the technology.  

 

Other than my sarcastic "yeah, I get that you commute 500 miles up a 14% grade, at 70mph, while towing 20,000#,  through 4 feet of snow, so an EV isn't for you" how often have you seen me belittle people here for their choice of ride?  And even that is more about my perception of what they expect from an EV (often beyond what is expected of an ICE) than what they drive.

 

13 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

The OP does not imply that all batteries for this make or any make cost that .

 

Oh?  What's the title of this thread? To me that, along with the Ohmygawd!!! ANOTHER one!!!! presentation, implies that for all Hyundai EVs of this model it costs $60,000 to replace the battery.  There is, to me, also the implication that ONLY EVs have outrageously overpriced replacement parts and disreputable dealers, and that no ICE dealership or shop ever overcharged for service. Much the same as the memes that imply that 99&44/100 of all EVs will spontaneously burst into flames, and that only EVs burn.  It's hard to find the rate at which that happens because it is a pretty rare event, but it seems that the number per 100,000 is far lower for EVs than for internal combustion engines.  But the prevailing wisdom is that just about every EV is a firetrap that will catch fire for no apparent reason.  

 

And, yet again, I'm not a "fan boy," I don't believe that EVs are a universal panacea for all our social ills, I don't believe that by driving an EV I'm "saving the planet." I do think that EVs can fill a significant niche in our transportion needs, and, like ICE vehicles of 125 years ago, are a new and developing technology.  I don't expect them to hit the market with every flaw eliminated, as so many of the anti-EV people demand, nor do I expect that the supporting infrastructure be 10 years ahead of demand.   I look back at the history of the automobile and see people having to order fuel through pharmacies and hardware stores rather than a gas station on every other corner. Growing pains. People gave the technology time to develop.  I suspect that there are still stretches in the US where if you don't top off your tank you might be in a world of hurt before the next filling station. I remember I-5 through the Central Valley not long after it was completed, with signs like "Next Service 95 Miles" or 68 miles. Not like today with stations maybe, at the most, 20 miles apart.  Heck, how long after motor cars became common was it before tarmack or concrete paved interstate highways became the norm?  

 

I see, looking at that golden era, the laws that mandate someone some yards ahead of the car with a flag to warn pedestrians and equestrians of the approaching motor vehicle, or having to stop every couple of miles to set off a warning fireworks rocket. I see things like that Ed Kline ad telling people of the pitfalls of motor vehicles compared to horses.  And I see that same mindset in the anti-EV crowd today.

 

I don't see from many people a willingness to let technology develop.  I also see lots of grousing about "government subsidies!!!!" Just look at the railroads, then tell us how that little land grab wasn't a government subsidy .  And the tax breaks and incentives for both petroleum and automotive industries over the decades.  At least with EVs some small portion of what we have paid in can come back directly to us if we take advantage of it. 

 

 

[Still hand Bill]

34 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

All gasoline powered vehicles use the same gasoline. I am asking for all evs to use the same battery pack so that any ev can get a new battery at any service facility. Pull in, get your battery  exchanged and drive on, just like getting  a tank of gas.

They can’t even agree on the same charge cord, so same battery won’t happen.  The charge cord is a more close analogy of pulling into a gas station and filling up.   Imagine there were three different types of nozzles to get gas and you have to find the correct pump/ station to get gas.  That’s what ev’s deal with.   Imho it was a huge mistake in the US that the government didn’t specify a single connector for charging.  They did in Europe and Tesla uses the standard, not the Tesla connector like in the US.  
 

Swapping batteries would be like a quick change gas tank.  the idea of quick changing is really no longer feasible as the batteries have a lot going on for temperature control.  They are also used as a structure in the car.   Not as simple as just pulling it out and swapping in a new one. 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

20 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I also see lots of grousing about "government subsidies!!!!" Just look at the railroads, then tell us how that little land grab wasn't a government subsidy .  And the tax breaks and incentives for both petroleum and automotive industries over the decades. 

If you want to start threads about government overreaches in other areas, I’ll happily weigh in there, too. Somehow, never thought to bring up railroads in relation to EVs. 
 

As far as government taxes and subsidies in petroleum, the government generally gets more in revenue from taxing petroleum consumption than it expends in petroleum subsidies. 
 

As far as the automotive industry, the government is setting the U.S. up for another bailout caused by the automobile manufacturers’ losses due to producing unwanted EVs. 
 

Thanks for the thoughts. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

@Subdeacon Joe I support your right to argue whatever position you choose. I support your right to believe whatever you choose. 
 

Unfortunately the EV crowd has moved from debate to force. They’re no longer willing to simply argue their position in the marketplace of ideas, they’re working hard to take choice off the table and achieve their ends by forced compliance.

 

That makes this debate less about EVs vs ICE and more about knuckling under to pressure or standing up for liberty.

 

I’m on the side of liberty, but to be clear, even if that wasn’t what was at stake, it’s clear to me that EVs aren’t ready for prime time and likely never will be.

 

PHEV’s OTH have real potential, possessing most of the advantages of pure EVs with far fewer of the disadvantages.

[Pb Mark]

My only true experience with EV's beyond electric golf carts is what I see.

 

My city was gifted eight public electric busses.  Pretty good use for the technology - "free" busses and taxpayer funded charging of them.  Soon after, one of the busses went up in flames in the bus charging station.  One real good fire.  Did not destroy the building or other capital equipment.  Nothing to see here folks...

[Buckshot Bob]

17 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Sort of like people who belittle you for owning a "gas guzzling pick up" and praising their fuel efficient little car (I can drive from Chula Vista to Eureka on half of my 10 gallon tank!), then wanting to borrow it when they need to haul more than a loaf of bread and carton of milk.  That's all about the person and says nothing about the technology.  

 

Other than my sarcastic "yeah, I get that you commute 500 miles up a 14% grade, at 70mph, while towing 20,000#,  through 4 feet of snow, so an EV isn't for you" how often have you seen me belittle people here for their choice of ride?  And even that is more about my perception of what they expect from an EV (often beyond what is expected of an ICE) than what they drive.

 

 

Oh?  What's the title of this thread? To me that, along with the Ohmygawd!!! ANOTHER one!!!! presentation, implies that for all Hyundai EVs of this model it costs $60,000 to replace the battery.  There is, to me, also the implication that ONLY EVs have outrageously overpriced replacement parts and disreputable dealers, and that no ICE dealership or shop ever overcharged for service. Much the same as the memes that imply that 99&44/100 of all EVs will spontaneously burst into flames, and that only EVs burn.  It's hard to find the rate at which that happens because it is a pretty rare event, but it seems that the number per 100,000 is far lower for EVs than for internal combustion engines.  But the prevailing wisdom is that just about every EV is a firetrap that will catch fire for no apparent reason.  

 

And, yet again, I'm not a "fan boy," I don't believe that EVs are a universal panacea for all our social ills, I don't believe that by driving an EV I'm "saving the planet." I do think that EVs can fill a significant niche in our transportion needs, and, like ICE vehicles of 125 years ago, are a new and developing technology.  I don't expect them to hit the market with every flaw eliminated, as so many of the anti-EV people demand, nor do I expect that the supporting infrastructure be 10 years ahead of demand.   I look back at the history of the automobile and see people having to order fuel through pharmacies and hardware stores rather than a gas station on every other corner. Growing pains. People gave the technology time to develop.  I suspect that there are still stretches in the US where if you don't top off your tank you might be in a world of hurt before the next filling station. I remember I-5 through the Central Valley not long after it was completed, with signs like "Next Service 95 Miles" or 68 miles. Not like today with stations maybe, at the most, 20 miles apart.  Heck, how long after motor cars became common was it before tarmack or concrete paved interstate highways became the norm?  

 

I see, looking at that golden era, the laws that mandate someone some yards ahead of the car with a flag to warn pedestrians and equestrians of the approaching motor vehicle, or having to stop every couple of miles to set off a warning fireworks rocket. I see things like that Ed Kline ad telling people of the pitfalls of motor vehicles compared to horses.  And I see that same mindset in the anti-EV crowd today.

 

I don't see from many people a willingness to let technology develop.  I also see lots of grousing about "government subsidies!!!!" Just look at the railroads, then tell us how that little land grab wasn't a government subsidy .  And the tax breaks and incentives for both petroleum and automotive industries over the decades.  At least with EVs some small portion of what we have paid in can come back directly to us if we take advantage of it. 

 

 

Once again it doesn’t imply anything. The cost is the cost and it’s ridiculous. If a major component of a gas car got some damage and it cost as much to replace the component as the cost of the car people would say the same thing. After watching the video would you honestly purchase one of these ? Would you recommend it to a friend? Or would you tell them about this video? It’s like charging 60k to replace a motor or at worst a motor and transmission. This company is ripping off the consumer. 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Get your kids ready….

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

4 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

Once again it doesn’t imply anything. The cost is the cost and it’s ridiculous. If a major component of a gas car got some damage and it cost as much to replace the component as the cost of the car people would say the same thing. After watching the video would you honestly purchase one of these ? Would you recommend it to a friend? Or would you tell them about this video? It’s like charging 60k to replace a motor or at worst a motor and transmission. This company is ripping off the consumer. 

Maybe someone mentioned it, if the actual repair cost is legitimately $60k, then the subsidies for these (new) from taxpayers exceeds $30k or more. And I wouldn’t trust any public data stating otherwise. New, the Hyundai Ionic isn’t even a $50k car. I’d bet half or more subsidies goes direct to manufacturers unseen , with the other half, or more, being played as a dealer retained rebate to the consumer. Then there’s tax credits. 

 

If there were $60k repairs on $45k gas/diesel cars the Ralph Naders of the world would be raising t-total hell, and more shitty legislation would be passed that would only result in higher prices and scarcity.

[Buckshot Bob]

4 minutes ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

Maybe someone mentioned it, if the actual repair cost is legitimately $60k, then the subsidies for these (new) from taxpayers exceeds $30k or more. And I wouldn’t trust any public data stating otherwise. New, the Hyundai Ionic isn’t even a $50k car. I’d bet half or more goes direct to manufacturers unseen , with the half, or more, being played as a dealer retained rebate to the consumer.

In the video they showed the dealer estimate. If I’m remembering correctly the insurance company just totaled the car. 
From what I have read allot of the tax payers incentives are going away next year in the US . Probably why some companies are cutting back production. 
This example was also in Canada so I don’t know if their incentive program pays more or less than here in the US . 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

4 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 so an EV isn't for you" how often have you seen me belittle people here for their choice of ride?  And even that is more about my perception of what they expect from an EV (often beyond what is expected of an ICE) than what they drive.

 

I hope I never have belittled you for your opinion. Opinions I state, are always mine and how I feel about EVs at present. 

As to EVs catching on fire, I have lived in my subdivision now 25 years, and approx. 2 years ago a house here (175 homes), burnt severely due after investigation from an EV that was in the garage charging. Thanks to alarms, everyone made it out safely.

Second is that I use my high mileage fuel efficient 39MPG to get to monthly matches, none of which I could make a round trip without recharge stop.

EVs manufacturing of the raw material is probable causing more damage to air, ground, and the people that mine the raw material from the earth. So if a person believes they are helping the environment, the green people, they are wrong. But if someone can accept the range and buy it for their convenience of not purchasing fuel, go for it. 

I asked a neighbor who has a friend who is a mechanic at local Ford dealer to see what a battery pack would cost to replace an out of warranty Ford EV and it wasn't 40 t0 60,000.00. He said that labor was around 1800.00 and a battery pack was anywhere from 22,000.00 to 35,000.00. They have not received sheet on what a 150 EV Truck replacement cost is yet.

 

Again, hope you never felt I was belittling you.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Question about the EV batteries. If you charged up your EV to 100% and then you don’t drive it for 3 days does the battery lose charge kinda like your phone does?? 

[Buckshot Bob]

Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Question about the EV batteries. If you charged up your EV to 100% and then you don’t drive it for 3 days does the battery lose charge kinda like your phone does?? 

Every vehicle draws something. Clocks , computers, etc…. Are always running. Those small jumper pacs seem to be pretty popular at car dealerships. Even new cars that sit a long time can need to be jump started.

My wife’s new car is almost irritating with the number of messages it sends to my phone. 

[Still hand Bill]

19 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Question about the EV batteries. If you charged up your EV to 100% and then you don’t drive it for 3 days does the battery lose charge kinda like your phone does?? 

Yes.  Called vampire drain.  I left my ev for 10 days at the airport and it lost a few %, but not enough to matter.  Teslas were notorious for having a high vampire drain when they first came out.  I expect they have since reduced the problem to a manageable level.  A quick search should show if it’s still a problem. 
 

all batteries self discharge over time even when not connected.  Lead acid is pretty quick, less than 6 months.  Nimh is really fast like a week or two, why early rechargeable tools were always dead. Lithium is pretty slow and can go a year or more.  

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

5 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I've mentioned this before: About 20 years or so ago, I saw something on Discovery that described this very thing. I thought then that it was a great idea, and still think so. But both the cars and batteries would have to be substantially re-engineered for it to happen. And ALL the car companies would have to agree on the design. I don't see THAT happening any time soon. 

Never happen….same lack of common sense as in medicine with opportunists and government power pushing some bureaucrats very own patented drugs.

[Buckshot Bob]

[Pb Mark]

Anybody know a Firefighter?

 

Alabama Firefighters Forced to Close Interstate, Pour 36,000 Gallons of Water Into Burning EV to Put It Out (msn.com)

[Buckshot Bob]

More EV battery prices 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

This thing back??  Thought for sure it was dead!!

 

Somebody drive a stake through its heart!!

[J-BAR #18287]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

This thing back??  Thought for sure it was dead!!

 

Somebody drive a stake through its heart!!

 

Don't worry; it will discharge itself pretty quickly.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

4 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Don't worry; it will discharge itself pretty quickly.

If it does, Subdeacon Joe will charge it back up to show that it's a viable alternative to 1930s technology.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Hertz car rental just announced it’s selling a third of its global EV car fleet due to low demand and higher  maintenance costs than its ICE fleet. 

In 2021 they announced EVs were the wave of the future and would buy 100,000 EVs. They stopped at 60,000 and will sell a third of those. I’m betting they’ll sell more as time goes by. 
 

Sooner or later, the laws of economics poke thru the layers of distorted govt. policies.