If you do buy a EV , you might not want a Hyundai

[Buckshot Bob]

 

[bgavin]

Better yet, don't buy an EV at all.

My lodge brother is a volunteer NJ fireman and a fraud investigator for a big insurance company.
Apparently EV accidents are fraught with fraud.

For starters, the jaws-of-life guys are required to call some reference company and supply the VIN, so they can be told where to cut and not hit cables or batteries.
Lithium burns with highly toxic white smoke.
Traditional fire fighters are taught that white smoke is safe, and black smoke is not.

EVs on fire are told to let it burn and stay away.
Those suspected of a fire danger are impounded in a special concrete bunker for up to 14 days, again a toxic risk.

The tow truck drivers are reluctant to haul them or get close for the same reasons.

Apparently there is substantial fraud in kickbacks with the VIN advice scheme.

And last, the batteries are enormously expensive and only last 3 to 5 years.
When a Tesla runs out of juice on the road, the drive train locks up.
Can't push it out of the traffic lane.

The new ran an article about Tesla being the #3 worst out of 200 vehicles for repair costs.
And... the new 2024 Toyota Tacomas are coming with... < drum roll >  batteries and turbo charged gasoline engines.

[JD Lud]

Just got a Tesla….on a lease for 3 years.  Some very attractive discounts….i have never leased before but it makes some sense to try one now.  Get the tax credit for the lease and if prices collapse so be it

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Druther cut my own leg off with a wooden spoon than to buy an electric car.

[Subdeacon Joe]

https://youtu.be/PXMRzI0kQeY?si=UK6Yla8YfiN2EgL_

[watab kid]

im not buying one till the market sorts out all the glitches , these forced government mandated things are seldom driven by any market interest and thus no drive to be innovative in development 

[Subdeacon Joe]

5 hours ago, bgavin said:

And last, the batteries are enormously expensive and only last 3 to 5 years.

 

Put up your source for that.   If true, then the battery falls under the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty and replacement is free.

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44852031/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/

 

"According to a widely cited Recurrent study published earlier this year, most EVs experience a five- to 10-percent loss in capacity in their first 40,000 miles, then level off and maintain around 80 to 90 percent of their original capacity to 100,000 miles and beyond.

 

While relatively few EVs have been around long enough to hit 200,000 miles, Tesla’s 2022 Impact Report touted an average retention of 88 percent battery capacity at that milestone. Some individuals with particularly excessive driving habits, as in 74,000 miles a year or more, have reported as little as 20 percent degradation on packs with over 350,000 miles on them."

[bgavin]

You will have to dig for yourself.
The article was on Fox News, top 200 cars.
The vehicle was an EV, but not a Tesla for the battery cost.
The article said about $4,500.

 

[Texas Lizard]

25 minutes ago, bgavin said:

You will have to dig for yourself.
The article was on Fox News, top 200 cars.
The vehicle was an EV, but not a Tesla for the battery cost.
The article said about $4,500.

 

Uses AA batteries...Lots of AA batteries....

 

Texas Lizard

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Screw you.
I don't make stuff up, nor do I play on the internet all day, then demand folks cite their sources.
I'm not your personal librarian.
Get a life somewhere off YouTube and Facebook.

It wasn't "all day," about 15 minutes to peruse a dozen articles looking for your claim of 3 to 5 years.

 

I just now searched ev battery life 3 to 5 years,"

first few articles:

 

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/battery-life-3-5-years.13133/

 

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last

 

https://blog.evbox.com/ev-battery-longevity

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/

 

 

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

 

 

https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-study-says-longer-than-you-think

"The oldest models in the study have the highest percentage of battery replacements, at about 5% for those that have been on the road for nine to 12 years, according to the graph below. Twelve years is the current average lifespan for gas-powered cars in the US, according to Progressive.

 

This suggests a battery replacement could come at a natural time to consider buying a new vehicle or replacing the battery on the current one, not as an unfortunate surprise just a few years into ownership."

 

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

 

(All that in about 10 minutes, much of it switching between screens on my phone)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

It wasn't "all day," about 15 minutes to peruse a dozen articles looking for your claim of 3 to 5 years.

 

I just now searched ev battery life 3 to 5 years,"

first few articles:

 

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/battery-life-3-5-years.13133/

 

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last

 

https://blog.evbox.com/ev-battery-longevity

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/

 

 

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

 

 

https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-study-says-longer-than-you-think

"The oldest models in the study have the highest percentage of battery replacements, at about 5% for those that have been on the road for nine to 12 years, according to the graph below. Twelve years is the current average lifespan for gas-powered cars in the US, according to Progressive.

 

This suggests a battery replacement could come at a natural time to consider buying a new vehicle or replacing the battery on the current one, not as an unfortunate surprise just a few years into ownership."

 

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

 

(All that in about 10 minutes, much of it switching between screens on my phone)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From that first link, and the only mention of 3 to 5 years:

"EDIT: The 3-5 year battery life (found when googling Taycan batter life) evidently applies to the standard 12-volt battery that is found in any car and NOT the large lithium battery bank used for propulsion, just to get this out of the way....."

[bgavin]

Evidently you are not the internet super star you believe yourself to be.


https://za.investing.com/magazine/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain/

97. Lexus CT 200h

Model Years: 2011-2017
Avg. Repair Costs: $386 per year*

The Lexus CT 200h does quite well when it comes to repair costs, costing around $386 per year (compared to an $801 average for all luxury cars). The batteries in this hybrid luxury vehicle generally last between three and five years, though that depends on your driving habits, the weather conditions where you live, and the type of battery.

Generally, it costs $4,000-$4,500 to replace the CT 200h’s battery. The lion’s share of this cost comes from the battery itself, which is priced at $3,955. Of all the replacements and repairs, issues with the 200h’s battery are likely to be the priciest.

 

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

Searched "fox news EV battery life 3 to 5 years"

 

https://fox59.com/automotive/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last-2/amp/

 

https://fox5sandiego.com/automotive/how-long-do-electric-cars-last/amp/

 

https://fox59.com/automotive/how-long-do-tesla-batteries-last/amp/

 

I couldn't find anything about Fox News saying 3 to 5 years.

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

OK, searched that SPECIFIC model that you claimed as the average for ALL EV batteries.

 

Again found nothing to confirm it outside of the ONE article that seems to have confused the 12 volt battery with the main battery bof the HYBRID vehicle.

 

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ct-200h-model-2011-2017/800441-battery-life-for-ct.html

 

https://exclusivelyhybrid.com/lexus-hybrid-battery-warranty/

 

"Hybrid batteries have a longer lifespan than a conventional battery’s 3-4 years. This is due to the hybrid car charging the batteries through regenerative braking, which keeps the battery from draining too low to bounce back.

 

Depending on the model and driving conditions, hybrid batteries in general last 70,000 to 200,000 miles. Some manufacturers state a battery’s lifespan to be 10-15 years, but this is under ideal conditions.

 

For the hybrid Lexus, the battery has a projected lifespan that equates to the vehicle’s life. This timeframe is hard to pinpoint since some cars face differing conditions: both road conditions and inefficiencies based on improper maintenance impact the lifespan. The driver’s breaking methods can also affect battery lifespan. But in general, most Lexus vehicle’s hybrid batteries will last between 100,000 to 200,000 miles. "

 

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

OK, Bgavin, you're right, ALL EV power packs need to be replaced at no more than 5 years, which means that under the federally mandated MINIMUM of an 8 year or 100'000 mile warranty you will always have free battery replacement.

[Ozark Huckleberry]

12 hours ago, JD Lud said:

Some very attractive discounts…

 

On behalf of taxpayers everywhere -- you're welcome.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Those that believe EVs are good for the enviroment, need to remember this also.

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

5 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Searched "fox news EV battery life 3 to 5 years"

 

https://fox59.com/automotive/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last-2/amp/

 

https://fox5sandiego.com/automotive/how-long-do-electric-cars-last/amp/

 

https://fox59.com/automotive/how-long-do-tesla-batteries-last/amp/

 

I couldn't find anything about Fox News saying 3 to 5 years.

 

 

Fox News lies. Rupert Murdoch admitted it when he retired.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

15 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

My point was that the Fox articles I found that mentioned life of EV batteries didn't say 3 to 5 years.  That was the claim - that Fox said the average life of all EV power packs was 3 to 5 years. 

 
In a later post he gave a different source, not Fox as he said (although I'll give him that maybe Fox had cited that article and that's where he first heard it), and it had ONE model of hybrid that seemed to confuse the 12 volt battery with the power pack.  And, typical of the common lead-acid batteries, it has a lifespan of 3 to 5 years.  Other sources say the power packs for that make of EVs have a life of 10 to 20 years.  

Here in Florida, I've found this out on lead-acid batteries, 3 to 5 years and the cost has triplet on these since the 90s when I first found out how long they last. My farm trucks in Illinois, even with the winter cold, I never bought a new battery for them. Some were 8 to 12 years old. Just cleaned the connections. Only battery I ever replaced was on our Corvette.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Fox News lies. Rupert Murdoch admitted it when he retired.

All the news agencies fill their pages with lies and half truths.

Each news agency is busy defending whatever polarized side they choose

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 minute ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Here in Florida, I've found this out on lead-acid batteries, 3 to 5 years and the cost has triplet on these since the 90s when I first found out how long they last. My farm trucks in Illinois, even with the winter cold, I never bought a new battery for them. Some were 8 to 12 years old. Just cleaned the connections. Only battery I ever replaced was on our Corvette.

https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/features-of-sealed-lead-acid-batteries/#:~:text=Sealed lead acid batteries can,manufacturing process of the battery.

 

Quote

5 years

 

Sealed lead acid batteries can have a design life of anywhere from 3 – 5 years all the way up to 12+ years depending on the manufacturing process of the battery.

 

https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lead-acid-battery-downsides/

Quote

2/ Limited Cycle Life

Even if you are going easy on your batteries and are careful to never overly drain them, even the best deep cycle lead acid batteries are typically only good for 500-1000 cycles. If you are frequently tapping into your battery bank, this could mean that your batteries may need replacement after less than 2 years use.

I'll stand by 3 to 5 years as an AVERAGE life of lead-acid batteries.  

[JD Lud]

3 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

On behalf of taxpayers everywhere -- you're welcome.

Hey I am one of those taxpayers

 

we are lucky that we moved to Florida, and live in an area we dont drive much so should work out just fine.  I see it as a good trial to be honest.

 

i have had a lot of people lately telling me and wife how awesome they were, we needed a car, and I like Elon strangely enough so what the heck.

I also believe these batteries and electric requirements might collectively be worse off than a modern, efficient clean gas engine .

 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

You can get good battery prices with a commercial account if that’s an option. Funny thing- the big Napa heavy duty batteries for medium and heavy duty trucks are $135 all day long to anyone ( here anyways just bought two). Now they may only last 3-4 years.
Little dinky battery for my Tundra shelf prices $200+.
 

Interstate has, or at least had , a commercial line of batteries good for over twice the years of normal. A local utility company that’s all they buy. $3-400 each last I heard. I bought a used truck from them. Battery was 8 years old when I replaced it.

10 minutes ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Here in Florida, I've found this out on lead-acid batteries, 3 to 5 years and the cost has triplet on these since the 90s when I first found out how long they last. My farm trucks in Illinois, even with the winter cold, I never bought a new battery for them. Some were 8 to 12 years old. Just cleaned the connections. Only battery I ever replaced was on our Corvette.

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'll stick with my 455 horsepower, 6.2 liter 6 speed manual.  Red like a sports car ought to be with honkin big tires.  5 years of ownership and I still smile every time I crank it up and hear those burbles and pops.

 

It's not fuel efficient.  It's not quiet.  It's not PC, and I love it.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

6 minutes ago, JD Lud said:

Hey I am one of those taxpayers

 

we are lucky that we moved to Florida, and live in an area we dont drive much so should work out just fine.  I see it as a good trial to be honest.

 

i have had a lot of people lately telling me and wife how awesome they were, we needed a car, and I like Elon strangely enough so what the heck.

I also believe these batteries and electric requirements might collectively be worse off than a modern, efficient clean gas engine .

 

I for one won’t beat you down for your decision. Be happy.
 

It’s funny how people go up to people or I overhear people lecturing an ev owner over their poor decision.

 

Or to vegans how they’re really unhealthy weaklings.

 

Or I kept horses at my parents for years. Dad told me a fella pulled in one day just to tell him my horses were wormy. Said he could tell by looking from the road.  My horses stayed on a rotational wormer cycle. ( Horse people in general seem the worst, most clickish people I ever was exposed to- braggarts, condescending and always starting pecker swinging contests).

Or the Harley crowd that thinks  your Sportster is a bitch bike.

 

At the end of the day, these folks getting into other folks business are just left with their egos and the lies we all read and hear.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

51 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/features-of-sealed-lead-acid-batteries/#:~:text=Sealed lead acid batteries can,manufacturing process of the battery.

 

 

https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lead-acid-battery-downsides/

I'll stand by 3 to 5 years as an AVERAGE life of lead-acid batteries.  

Fairly accurate.

 

But no one knows the truth anymore about anything. We are told- Electric vehicles have no emissions in use but do in manufacturing. Gas cars do on both levels. 
But how much? Coal is typically cited for electrical use, but we have no idea whether these manufacturing plants use coal, hydro or nuclear. I suspect the dirtiest coal plants are used for data to support their position, and that coal is exclusively accepted as being used for all these ev manufacturing pollution studies. But how the hell do we know?

 

The same knuckleheads I’m typically around that have been fossil fuel proponents and proponents of coal and clean coal- yes it’s possible!- now are talking about the environmental impacts of mining and how dirty coal is.

They’re not knuckleheads fit for their position ( I personally only want gas or diesel for myself) , it’s just their intellect and cherry picked arguments. 

 

Folks tell me regenerative braking is a myth and false technological claims , then get a deer in the headlights look when I tell them it’s  been used since the 60’s in paper mills that generate their own hydro power. 

EV car proponents argue with the same distortion, just in an inverse direction, cherry picking nonsensical way. 
 

The only thing certain is money, power and politics fuel both sides of these big arguments.
All new vehicles, gas, diesel, or electric are plagued with expensive problems. 
Right now, is polarizes everyone cause one lifestyle is threatening to eliminate the other on multiple fronts, and the other doesn’t want to subsidize it and executive fiat rams policy down everyone’s  throats. The Republic has been dead.

 

I’m for people having a choice, with no subsidies determining winners and losers, but capitalism working it all out. 
But I am skeptical of studies and data from about anyone as so much of it is skewed and perverted to generate the results wanted, not merited. We truly live in an ignorant age.

[Eyesa Horg]

21 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/features-of-sealed-lead-acid-batteries/#:~:text=Sealed lead acid batteries can,manufacturing process of the battery.

 

 

https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lead-acid-battery-downsides/

I'll stand by 3 to 5 years as an AVERAGE life of lead-acid batteries.  

The factory battery in my 02 F250 lasted 13 years, the one in it now is going on 8. It runs a snow plow and sits s lot now adays. Fired right up. The one in my back hoe is 18 years old. Now ATV batteries, I only get about 3 years out of.

[Still hand Bill]

Ev batteries life really depends on how they are treated.  I think most are rated for 1000 cycles or so until, they reach 70% capacity.  If you do say a 50% cycle depth it will go 2000 charges, 30% and now it’s 3000.  This is why it’s important to have a much bigger battery than needed.  The battery will go many more charges if they are shallow vs deep cycles.  If you do full deep cycles every day and fast charge you can kill a battery in a short period of time.  Many examples of this where people commute with too small a battery and charge 1 to 2x per day. 
 

nissan had huge issues with the first generation leaf battery.  They were small and air cooled.  Almost all of them were replaced under warranty.  Heat and cold can be bad for lithium batteries as well.   Fast charging while cold destroys batteries.  Most cars have heaters built in and limit charge rates when cold to prevent damage.  Liquid cooled batteries have cooling built in to help mitigate heat damage.  The air cooled Nissan batteries had no such provision and failed in quite high numbers in hot environments.  The mfg also don’t provide a good way to track battery capacity,  so it’s quite hard to know exactly what the capacity is of your pack.   I would guess my Bolt pack was down 10-20% after 3 years and 60k miles, but I was never able to put a hard number on the capacity loss.  
 

as a battery degrades the cycles get deeper which further speeds up degradation.  It’s a vicious spiral that can quickly kill an older battery.  

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

32 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'll stick with my 455 horsepower, 6.2 liter 6 speed manual.  Red like a sports car ought to be with honkin big tires.  5 years of ownership and I still smile every time I crank it up and hear those burbles and pops.

 

It's not fuel efficient.  It's not quiet.  It's not PC, and I love it.

Pics please….video of you in action would be better.

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

Pics please….video of you in action would be better.

The only action videos I have are Cowboy action. But I do have pics of the car.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Hey that’s nice!

[Subdeacon Joe]

33 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The only action videos I have are Cowboy action. But I do have pics of the car.

 

 

Nice looking ride!  And, yeah, sports cars need to be either red or bright yellow.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

Nice looking ride!  And, yeah, sports cars need to be either red or bright yellow.  

Ya think?  I'm not convinced.     

(ok, my next one is going to be red).

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 hours ago, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

Fairly accurate.

 

But no one knows the truth anymore about anything. We are told- Electric vehicles have no emissions in use but do in manufacturing. Gas cars do on both levels. 
But how much? Coal is typically cited for electrical use, but we have no idea whether these manufacturing plants use coal, hydro or nuclear. I suspect the dirtiest coal plants are used for data to support their position, and that coal is exclusively accepted as being used for all these ev manufacturing pollution studies. But how the hell do we know?

 

The same knuckleheads I’m typically around that have been fossil fuel proponents and proponents of coal and clean coal- yes it’s possible!- now are talking about the environmental impacts of mining and how dirty coal is.

They’re not knuckleheads fit for their position ( I personally only want gas or diesel for myself) , it’s just their intellect and cherry picked arguments. 

 

Folks tell me regenerative braking is a myth and false technological claims , then get a deer in the headlights look when I tell them it’s  been used since the 60’s in paper mills that generate their own hydro power. 

EV car proponents argue with the same distortion, just in an inverse direction, cherry picking nonsensical way. 
 

The only thing certain is money, power and politics fuel both sides of these big arguments.
All new vehicles, gas, diesel, or electric are plagued with expensive problems. 
Right now, is polarizes everyone cause one lifestyle is threatening to eliminate the other on multiple fronts, and the other doesn’t want to subsidize it and executive fiat rams policy down everyone’s  throats. The Republic has been dead.

 

I’m for people having a choice, with no subsidies determining winners and losers, but capitalism working it all out. 
But I am skeptical of studies and data from about anyone as so much of it is skewed and perverted to generate the results wanted, not merited. We truly live in an ignorant age.

 

 

Well said!  It all depends on where you get your data set.  I could cite Norway, which has a relatively high number of EVs, and I think all electricity is either hydro or geothermal, so the "break even" point is only about 14,000 miles.  Or I could cite Pennsylvania with 16 coal plants for power generation (and, to hear the anti-EV people talk, none have been upgraded since about 1939), and the "break even" point is something like 40,000 miles.  Both sides cherry pick, and both sides purposely misinterpret what the other says.  

Are EVs, and all electric everything else, The Answer To All Our Problems, as some seem to claim?  Nope, not even close.  Do they fit all needs for transportation?  No, of course not.  Just as the Ford F-350 with 40" tires that so many adore doesn't fit all needs.  But there is a huge niche for which EVs are a good fit.

 

[JD Lud]

I pick mine up in an hour.  I’ll get a pic    

it’s  a strange process so far…do everything through the app and make an appointment to pick it up.  They have all the videos of how to operate it, watched most of those.  Payment…...through the app.  Proof of insurance….through the app.  Honestly it’s quite a nice process if you want to get in and out and not spend all day…so far.  I have heard the appt is really quick and only a virtual call.  They have already told me the parking spot it’s in at the store and my phone is the key…