SG vs Stage Design: advantage/disad.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

A fellow Cowboy shooter and I were discussing the '97 and SxS shotguns and

if there was any advantage or disadvantage of either when there is movement

between each pair of shells.......i.e. shoot 2, MOVE, shoot 2 more.

 

He was thinking that if there is movement between pairs, there MAY NOT be as much advantage

of a fast SG shooter over the slower SG shooter.

FAST being 4 shots in sub 4 seconds.

Slow being 4 shots in around 6 seconds.

 

I had never given it much thought other than any movement under 2-3 steps, the fast shooter still

is fast and the slow shooter still lags behind by a couple seconds.

Movement of 12-15 feet and I concede, the slower shooter has time to reload and be ready to fire

at the next shooting position within the same time frame as the fast SG shooter.

 

Any of you Pards have any data concerning this?    Even your opinion is welcome.

 

P.S. - a fast SxS or '97 shooter can have their 'next pair' ready to fire in less than a second up to around 1.5 seconds.

A slow SG shooter is still gonna take 3 seconds to reload, which is still a longer time than most movements.

 

All this, of course, is just my opinion.    Ya get what ya pay for!  

 

..........Widder

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I had not thought about it but now I am going to request our stage writers to put in more widely split shotgun. 

[Tom Bullweed]

In most ranges that I enjoy cowboy-action, but the range is also used for IPSC, 3-Gun and/or IDPA, movement with a scattergun with rounds in the chamber or on the carrier is prohibited.  The 'basketball' rule is used to limit movement on a gun the can be fired over the berm without a safety consequence.

[Tennessee williams]

I've done a lot of research and comparison on various timing scenarios. It's one of my favorite aspects of our sport. For me( 1.5+ seconds with shotgun in hand for the 2nd set) it depends on the movement distance and the movement speed of the shooter as well as the sg speed of the compared shooter. For instance, if it takes two mentally equal shooters 2.5 seconds to get from one position to the next position you'd think it would make no difference in the stage. But, if you factored in shooter A only takes 1.5 seconds to load his 2nd set of shells and it takes shooter B 2 seconds to load their 2nd set of shells what's that tell you? All else equal except shell loading, shooter B has narrowed the margin of the shotgun to net zero because both loaded on the way whereas if it were stand and deliver, shooter A would've had a half second victory over shooter B. 

   

[Texas Jack Black]

5 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I've done a lot of research and comparison on various timing scenarios. It's one of my favorite aspects of our sport. For me( 1.5+ seconds with shotgun in hand for the 2nd set) it depends on the movement distance and the movement speed of the shooter as well as the sg speed of the compared shooter. For instance, if it takes two mentally equal shooters 2.5 seconds to get from one position to the next position you'd think it would make no difference in the stage. But, if you factored in shooter A only takes 1.5 seconds to load his 2nd set of shells and it takes shooter B 2 seconds to load their 2nd set of shells what's that tell you? All else equal except shell loading, shooter B has narrowed the margin of the shotgun to net zero because both loaded on the way whereas if it were stand and deliver, shooter A would've had a half second victory over shooter B. 

   

  Are you saying you found two MENTALLY EQUAL  SASS  SHOOTERS? 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I think the split shotguns we had last weekend favored double shooters. There were too many of them as well.

[Assassin]

We seldom shoot 4 shotgun from one position. The movement gives the shooter some additional time to correct any glitches that may occur; stuck shells, fumbled shells, etc. One stage that sticks in my mind is 8 sg and pistols only. Good shooters were running in low 20's, with 4 moves. I won't return to a match with stand and deliver stages, that's just lazy stage writing. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

At the S.E. Regional last weekend, all of the split shotgun stages required you to reengage the shotgun target from the original location.  This would benefit the 97 shooter in the case of a makeup shot.  It's presumably quicker to reload one shot in the 97 vs. reloading the SxS.  

 

I know.  Just don't miss and there won't be an issue.  

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think the split shotguns we had last weekend favored double shooters. There were too many of them as well.

 

37 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

At the S.E. Regional last weekend, all of the split shotgun stages required you to reengage the shotgun target from the original location.  This would benefit the 97 shooter in the case of a makeup shot.  It's presumably quicker to reload one shot in the 97 vs. reloading the SxS.  

 

I know.  Just don't miss and there won't be an issue.  

 

Soooooo, based on these 2 thoughts (that I quoted), a SxS shooter might be favored in a split SG scenario,

BUT, if a makeup is required, the '97 shooter might gain an edge in time.

 

But, as for a fast SG vs. slow SG,  does movement help the slower shooter?

I think Assassin's post above recognizes the situation when there might be a 

gun/ammo gremlin that pops up during the stage.

 

..........Widder

 

[Shooting Bull]

12 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I had never given it much thought other than any movement under 2-3 steps, the fast shooter still

is fast and the slow shooter still lags behind by a couple seconds.

Movement of 12-15 feet and I concede, the slower shooter has time to reload and be ready to fire

at the next shooting position within the same time frame as the fast SG shooter.

 

 

I don't have any research to back up my theory but I think the part in red is where your argument falls apart.  Fast shooters are fast for a reason, practice.  The shower shooter hasn't practiced as much and therefore isn't as adept at reloading.  You throw in trying to reload on the move and it makes the task even more difficult for someone that hasn't perfected it yet.  Yes, the extra distance gives the slower shooter more time to reload but it also makes the task much more difficult. So in my ever so humble opinion it's a wash. The faster shooter is still going to win this race. 

[Fretless]

It is likely true that a bit of distance might negate some of the advantage the faster shucker and loader has over the slower one.  It won't even the score though.  The faster shooter is faster for several reasons.  They transition into and out of guns faster/smoother.  They actually shoot faster.  They aquire the first target faster.  The distance between shooting locations does nothing to alter those factors.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

When I write stages for a match, I try my best to consider both SxS and Pump/Lever SG shooters. Some stages I use split SG, some are one-stop, some have all the KD together, some are in pairs. I try to mix it up so the match is not biased toward any specific category/style/weapon choice... or at least perceived that way. Yes, sometimes when we have to "double-up" (or more) stages on the same bay, that gets hard to do, but a good stage writer should be taking all that into account. I try my best not to cut my gunfighters off at the knees, but I don't write all my stages favoring them either. Mix it up! Some stages may give some an advantage (or at least it is looked at that way) and some may seem a disadvantage, but do try to not be slanted one way.

[Tennessee williams]

5 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

  Are you saying you found two MENTALLY EQUAL  SASS  SHOOTERS? 

  I found more than one "equally mentally challenged" shooters. Does that count?

 

  I was just saying that all other things equal with the exception of sg speed, the movement will tend to help the slower or less consistent sg shooter. I've done a whole lot of comparisons and stats. The outcome doesn't always come out to what you would guess it would. Proof is in the nanner pudding and all.

[Texas Maverick]

5 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

  Are you saying you found two MENTALLY EQUAL  SASS  SHOOTERS? 

Yeah, Widder and TW. 

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

3 hours ago, Assassin said:

We seldom shoot 4 shotgun from one position. The movement gives the shooter some additional time to correct any glitches that may occur; stuck shells, fumbled shells, etc. One stage that sticks in my mind is 8 sg and pistols only. Good shooters were running in low 20's, with 4 moves. I won't return to a match with stand and deliver stages, that's just lazy stage writing. 

We definitely know HOW isn't for lazy shooters. It was more like the Olympics of shooting. Had a great time and enjoyed the match. Will make it back up there sometime for sure.

 

Texas Maverick

[Stump Water]

2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I don't have any research to back up my theory but I think the part in red is where your argument falls apart.  Fast shooters are fast for a reason, practice.  The shower shooter hasn't practiced as much and therefore isn't as adept at reloading.  You throw in trying to reload on the move and it makes the task even more difficult for someone that hasn't perfected it yet.  Yes, the extra distance gives the slower shooter more time to reload but it also makes the task much more difficult. So in my ever so humble opinion it's a wash. The faster shooter is still going to win this race. 

 

Agreed.

 

Fast shooter or slow shooter, if you're reloading on the move you're not moving as fast as you can and you're not reloading as fast as you can**.  So, as SB says, the faster, more practiced shooter is still going to win this race.

 

** As Red River Ray says, "When it's time to move, MOVE!  Load/draw/shoot when you get there."

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Good, thoughtful input everyone.   Thanks.

 

I'm hoping my pal, Creeker, will chime in because he also puts a lot of thought into

his stage writing.    I'm wondering what he thinks about splitting SG targets, distance, etc.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Texas Jack Black]

3 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

When I write stages for a match, I try my best to consider both SxS and Pump/Lever SG shooters. Some stages I use split SG, some are one-stop, some have all the KD together, some are in pairs. I try to mix it up so the match is not biased toward any specific category/style/weapon choice... or at least perceived that way. Yes, sometimes when we have to "double-up" (or more) stages on the same bay, that gets hard to do, but a good stage writer should be taking all that into account. I try my best not to cut my gunfighters off at the knees, but I don't write all my stages favoring them either. Mix it up! Some stages may give some an advantage (or at least it is looked at that way) and some may seem a disadvantage, but do try to not be slanted one way.

 I also heard you could be bought of with a NANNA SPLIT  

[Texas Jack Black]

2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

  I found more than one "equally mentally challenged" shooters. Does that count?

 

  I was just saying that all other things equal with the exception of sg speed, the movement will tend to help the slower or less consistent sg shooter. I've done a whole lot of comparisons and stats. The outcome doesn't always come out to what you would guess it would. Proof is in the nanner pudding and all.

 So, if  I buy Widder two NANNA SPLITS he could be a bit slower and  I  might have an edge on Him when I shoot my 97 ?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I don't think it amounts to a hill of beans, unless there is a great distance between the shooting positions. I like to use SG to break up a stage ever now and again. And we allow plant & poke on most stages when it's safe to shoot from anywhere in between. Like the man said  "When it's time to move, MOVE!  Load/draw/shoot when you get there."

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

[Texas Maverick]

45 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So, if  I buy Widder two NANNA SPLITS he could be a bit slower and  I  might have an edge on Him when I shoot my 97 ?

He will definitely be full and maybe a tad bit slower in his git a long.

 

TM

[Widder, SASS #59054]

58 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So, if  I buy Widder two NANNA SPLITS he could be a bit slower and  I  might have an edge on Him when I shoot my 97 ?

 

12 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

He will definitely be full and maybe a tad bit slower in his git a long.

 

TM

 

Well, you better talk with Red Knee before betting any money on it..... 

 

I haven't taken up the rocker yet..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So, if  I buy Widder two NANNA SPLITS he could be a bit slower and  I  might have an edge on Him when I shoot my 97 ?

No,but if you buy me two nanner splits I'll "rough him up for ya". I'll jump out and ninja him when his backs turned. 

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Good, thoughtful input everyone.   Thanks.

 

I'm hoping my pal, Creeker, will chime in because he also puts a lot of thought into

his stage writing.    I'm wondering what he thinks about splitting SG targets, distance, etc.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Creeker shoots a '97.  He can't be trusted. 

 

(Yes, I'm fully aware of what you shoot.  That just adds more evidence to prove me right.  )

[Widder, SASS #59054]

It ain't whether someone uses a '97 or a SxS, but rather does movement between

engagement of SG pairs actually helps the slower shooter.

 

Some folks think that movement between pairs of SG targets allows the slower 

operators to shuck and reload before engagement of the next pair.

And any speed advantage the faster shooters might have is deminished, depending upon

the distance of movement.

 

I am in the belief that unless the distance is great, greater than most of our berms have,

the fast operator of their SG doesn't change regardless of stage design and the

slower operator isn't helped with movement.

 

But, I can understand why there is a difference of opinions and thought.

 

Still waiting on Creeker's input.

 

..........Widder

 

[Assassin]

4 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

We definitely know HOW isn't for lazy shooters. It was more like the Olympics of shooting. Had a great time and enjoyed the match. Will make it back up there sometime for sure.

 

Texas Maverick

HOW isn't my monkey, now Waterboy is at the helm. It's a shooters match, not a typical match. We have large bays and it would look silly to just use a small area. Gotta let those horses run on occasion.

[Tequila Shooter]

@Widder, SASS #59054  I find this entire thread offensive and prejudicial.  Why is this comparison limited to ‘97s and SxSs??  What about us that shoot an ‘87?  What we’re not good enough to be part of this discussion?  We’re not fast enough?  Is an ‘87 too radical a shotgun for you to consider???  I urge all ‘87 shooters to chime in and complain vigorously. 

 

 

 

 

I hope you realize this is straight up sarcasm and in no way reflects my true thoughts. 

[Texas Maverick]

56 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

It ain't whether someone uses a '97 or a SxS, but rather does movement between

engagement of SG pairs actually helps the slower shooter.

 

Some folks think that movement between pairs of SG targets allows the slower 

operators to shuck and reload before engagement of the next pair.

And any speed advantage the faster shooters might have is deminished, depending upon

the distance of movement.

 

I am in the belief that unless the distance is great, greater than most of our berms have,

the fast operator of their SG doesn't change regardless of stage design and the

slower operator isn't helped with movement.

 

But, I can understand why there is a difference of opinions and thought.

 

Still waiting on Creeker's input.

 

..........Widder

 

Well being one of those that is slow with the shotgun I can tell you it doesn't make any difference. I try to load on the run but then I have to concentrate on getting those damn square shells into those little round holes and run at the same time. Now you have really created a monster with a gun. LOL  I have been practicing and finally figured out what my problem is and am trying to come up with a good solution. When I grab 2 shells for my SxS they are two close together and don't hit the holes right. The left one keeps hitting the center post. So I am trying to work on keeping them separated as much as possible so they line up with the holes. It takes a lot of concentration on my part to make that happen on a consistent basis. I know, keep on practicing until it comes natural. I might even look for a shotgun belt where the shells are a little more separated instead of sitting right next to each other so when I grab them they are ready to be shoved into those round holes.

 

TM

[Tennessee williams]

If we are still talking about ALL ELSE between the 2 shooters being equal except for the speed in which they load their 2nd pair, yes there's a difference. There is no other choice but be a difference. Forget about saying fast shooter and slow shooter. These are EQUAL shooters except for the sg shooting. Lets expand the time to show it...

   If it takes one of the shooters a second longer than the other one's 1 second to load the 2nd pair but takes both shooters 2 seconds to get to the next position then neither shooter can fire their 2nd set until they get to the 2nd position which will take them both 2 seconds. The faster sg shooters' "leg up" doesn't exist anymore. The math just doesn't lie.

  Now when we start with other factors such as movement speed of each shooter and distance, and whether they can move and load, etc, it is still calculable but a whole heckuva lot harder to do. 

   With some of my researching, I've timed the difference in ME taking guns with me, etc. For instance when it's sg staged anywhere(depending on the stage) I will stage sg at the position before its fired. That saves me the 1.5 seconds of picking it up and I can load on the way. You are thinking right now, "no it doesn't you had to pick it up anyway". That'd be wrong. By picking it up at the same time as sitting the rifle down, I have accomplished two mandatory actions at once. Thus negating the time it took to do the fastest action.

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Texas Maverick said:

   When I grab 2 shells for my SxS they are two close together and don't hit the holes right. The left one keeps hitting the center post. So I am trying to work on keeping them separated as much as possible so they line up with the holes. 

 

TM

Post a picture of your sg chamber end.

[Shooting Bull]

43 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

If we are still talking about ALL ELSE between the 2 shooters being equal except for the speed in which they load their 2nd pair, yes there's a difference. There is no other choice but be a difference. Forget about saying fast shooter and slow shooter. These are EQUAL shooters except for the sg shooting. Lets expand the time to show it...

   If it takes one of the shooters a second longer than the other one to load the 2nd pair but takes both shooters 2 seconds to get to the next position then neither shooter can fire their 2nd set until they get to the 2nd position which will take them both 2 seconds. The faster sg shooters' "leg up" doesn't exist anymore. The math just doesn't lie.

  Now when we start with other factors such as movement speed of each shooter and distance, and whether they can move and load, etc, it is still calculable but a whole heckuva lot harder to do. 

   With some of my researching, I've timed the difference in ME taking guns with me, etc. For instance when it's sg staged anywhere(depending on the stage) I will stage sg at the position before its fired. That saves me the 1.5 seconds of picking it up and I can load on the way. You are thinking right now, "no it doesn't you had to pick it up anyway". That'd be wrong. By picking it up at the same time as sitting the rifle down, I have accomplished two mandatory actions at once. Thus negating the time it took to do the fastest action.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

50 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 If it takes one of the shooters a second longer than the other one to load the 2nd pair but takes both shooters 2 seconds to get to the next position then neither shooter can fire their 2nd set until they get to the 2nd position which will take them both 2 seconds. The faster sg shooters' "leg up" doesn't exist anymore. The math just doesn't lie.

 

 

If it takes the slower shooter ONE second longer to reload the 2nd pair, by conservative measures, it takes

the fast loader 1.5 seconds to reload, AND... if it takes both shooters 2 seconds to move to the 2nd firing position,

the fast shooter still has a 1/2 second advantage over the slower loader.

 

This time frame is the same whether the shooter loads on the move or at the 2nd firing position.

 

In my opinion, I am still not convinced that split SG scenarios help the slower operator, atleast to the point of equaling their SG performance.

 

EDIT:   and if there are 6 KD's, the disparity is even greater.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

11 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

If it takes the slower shooter ONE second longer to reload the 2nd pair, by conservative measures, it takes

the fast loader 1.5 seconds to reload, AND... if it takes both shooters 2 seconds to move to the 2nd firing position,

the fast shooter still has a 1/2 second advantage over the slower loader.

My scenario was supposed to say 1 second load for fast sg shooter and 2 second load for slower sg shooter. But still in your time line, the split has negated half of a second of the faster sg shooters' advantage.

11 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

This time frame is the same whether the shooter loads on the move or at the 2nd firing position.

If both shooters wait until the 2nd position to load, the movement doesn't negate any of the advantage. In my opinion it'd be just like no movement.

11 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

In my opinion, I am still not convinced that split SG scenarios help the slower operator, atleast to the point of equaling their SG performance.

 

EDIT:   and if there are 6 KD's, the disparity is even greater.

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Ok - here goes...

 

As it applies to SxS shotguns and shooters and MOVEMENT.

The action (time) required to PERFECTLY place shells into the chambers of a SxS is "X" 

 

"X" is (in my opinion) not achievable while running, jogging or ambling - at least running, jogging or ambling at a pace quick enough to make a valid difference moving position to position. 

So if the shooter cannot perform "X" at speed - then they have two options:

Move SLOWER to achieve "X" or move at full speed and perform "X" at either the starting position or the shooting position.

So the only way the "slower" shooter makes up any time is if they somehow move faster between positions because the "faster" shooter slows themself trying to load on the move.

 

97 shooters and movement...

The placement of a SINGLE shell into the open port of a 97 at speed IS without a doubt easier than the SxS shooters task and "can" be done at speed (or reasonably close to speed).

But still requires the follow-up loading to happen at the shooting position. 

There "May" be some advantage to longer movement between shotgun positions for the 97 (over the SxS).

 

Shotgun target placement...

Loading two shells into a SxS vs two into a 97 (load - fire - load - fire {not port and tube}); loading time is pretty much a wash.  This is why the single round into the port MIGHT advantage the 97 as 50% of their loading can be completed at speed while moving.

 

But firing time is advantageous to the SxS "IF" targets are placed in doubles in close proximity (load - bang, bang) as the aim is not disturbed by the shucking and reload motion as with a 97 - only requiring a slight (if any) barrel swing.

 

Spreading the targets (some) MAY level this aspect as the SxS shooter must at minimum swing the barrels to acquire a new sight picture.

The best shotgun shooters are the best for a reason and the placement or distance between target arrays will not disadvantage any of them versus a lesser shooter.

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks JEDI Creeker.

 

Glad you chimed in and I agree with your assessment.

 

When you design a stage, do you purposely split SG pairs, such as, shoot 2, MOVE, and shoot 2 more?

 

..........Widder