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What's your take on firing FMJ to clean out leading?


Quiet Burp

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It might mostly smear it off the lands, but just push more into the grooves. Firing FMJ will not clean out the grooves.

 

If your barrel is so leaded that deposits are ripping into lead bullets, firing FMJ may result in increased pressures. If the leading constitutes a barrel obstruction, then do not attempt using FMJ to remove it; the jacketing will not deform as easily as lead and could put one into kaboom territory.

 

Various firearms manuals I have even caution against changing ammo without cleaning the firearm for several other reasons.

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I used to have a Dan Wesson .357 Magnum. I bought a Lewis lead remover and went after the lead after every range session and it was a great deal of work. I decided to do some full-power FMJ loads one day at the end of target practice and when I got home there was zero lead. From that day on each session ended with a cylinder or two of FMJ. No more lead. I was wondering if it would bulge the barrel since it was a Dan Wesson but after careful examination each time, I never saw damage or a bulge.

I am not saying you will not have an issue. But, I didn't.

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Posted (edited)

Match the bullet diameter to 0.001" over the GROOVE diameter.  Use a good quality bullet lube (or if poly coated, use a top notch coating, not bargain basement powder).

 

Match the bullet alloy hardness to the pressure your load generates.  For a typical cowboy load, that would be around 6,000-8,000 PSI.  And the lead hardness that is most suitable for that is about 8 Brinell Hardness number.    2% antimony and a little tin, at most.   Common commercial cast bullets are made with 12-16 or up to 24 BHN lead alloy.

 

Too SOFT a bullet?   NO!  Cowboy loads are so slow (under 900 FPS usually) that there is no way you are shooting bullets that are too soft.  Pure lead slugs work if you lube them.

 

Too HARD a bullet alloy and/or too small a bullet diameter (or real tight chamber throats in the cylinder) allows a ton of gas cutting of the base and lower section of the bullet shank.  Very common in the cowboy world.  And very easy to fix.  Easier than cleaning a barrel even one time.

 

Don't continue to have to remove leading when cleaning the gun.  Fix the CAUSE of leading.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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been educational , thank you for the thread , i dont shoot fmj out of my cast lead guns so i cant add to this but ive often speculated on this question , just never thought to ask , 

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18 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Match the bullet alloy hardness to the pressure your load generates...

Where can I learn more about this (matching hardness to pressure)?

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Posted (edited)

Learned about the yellow lead away cloth when my dad completely leaded the barrel of his S&W mod. 10 with some swaged bullets.  That yellow cloth and a brush and some elbow grease will clean any leading you have out.  

Edited by Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428
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Posted (edited)
Quote

Where can I learn more about this (matching hardness to pressure)?

 

See this web site.  It's a temporary site because the Los Angeles Silhouette Club's web site has been neglected and broken since February.   Make a copy of this and other Glen Fryxell articles on cast bullets before lax web site maintenance does away with them all.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20230114141656/http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCommentsCBAlloys.htm

 

and another with a formula that for a peak chamber pressure tells you what value of bullet hardness (softness, actually)  is needed to allow the bullet base to swell up and seal the bore, which is KEY to preventing leading from gas cutting of the bullet.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20230114141655/http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

 

 

Here is a site showing lots of Fryxell's articles - all worth reading for cast bullet casters and loaders - which most of us are!

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20230114141653/http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

 

Another great source of information is the Cast Bullet Association's web site and membership-paid-for monthly newsletters, especially articles by C.E Ed Harris (rumored to be a SASS shooter as well).  Join up!

 

And, the NRA paperback publication on Cast Bullets, now several years old, but probably still available.

 

And even the Cast Boolits (yep) forum, but you have to be able to wade through lots of opinion and only a smattering of educational fact.

 

When you get into this, and start to be aware of bullet hardness, PM me and I'll give you several low cost ways that tell you the hardness of your bullets.   And no, it is NOT the Lee bullet hardness tester (junk in large part).   But it does include the higher-end Cabine Tree hardness tester.

 

Making non-leading cast bullets and loads IS a science, just not a well known one.  GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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IMHO sending a FMJ may push some lead out, but the risk of forcing or wedging lead against the barrel with enough force to cause damage may be possible. 

 

But, for minor leading in the barrel, (breech), firing a few gas checked rounds will push a lot of lead out. The edge of the gas check acts like a scraper. It, for obvious reasons, will not clean out a fouled forcing cone. 

 

A tight fitting cloth patch is fairly effective, and even more so if you put a bit of Kroil on it. I don't know why Kroil is so magic, but it does seem to bring the lead out. 

I was feeling pretty smug, I had an alloy that seemed to work nicely, and then it didn't. I believe it is the lube. I'd run out of a bunch of gunshow lube and was using up some of the odd tubes I have in the drawer. It does not do as good a job as the old lube. I would have thought, at cowboy velocities you could use just about anything, but I would have been wrong. 

 

I have a bunch of Dragon 50/50 NRA that I'll be trying next. 

 

Painted bullets (Hi-Tek or even cheap powder coated) seem to run nicely and leading is usually nil. 

 

EK had the opinion that bullet design had a lot to do with leading. I recently bought a Mason-Richards 1851 Uberti. The story being it was probably unfired. It had never been taken apart, but had a few cylinders of ammo fired in it. It was then stored for a decade or two. When I removed the leading that was in the breech, I discovered corrosion and pitting. It was fairly severe IMHO, worse than any of my other handguns. I removed the lead and any loose rust, but the breech was not smooth. Leading with any of my normal ammo was not acceptable. I dusted off my 358477 Lyman and cast up a bunch of bullets with HB (94-6-2) alloy with a BHN of about 15. I sized them at groove dia, or no less than about 0.001" undersized. That load shoots to the sights and is cowboy accurate, perhaps even better than cowboy accurate. It leads a bit, but I also loaded up a box of 358156 and a cylinder full of those after a session gets most of the lead out. 

 

My next test will be with some coated bullets. 

 

BB

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Plug the breech end of the barrel and pour mercury in the muzzle end, cap it and tilt the barrel back and forth. The lead will amalgamate with the mercury and clean it all out.

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How many fluorescent bulbs do you need to break to get that much mercury? :lol:;)

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Quote

pour mercury in the muzzle end

 

Highly toxic.  Almost non-disposable, certainly illegal to dispose of without following Haz Waste regs.    Thousands of "family" gold miners in 3rd world countries die each year NOW from mercury poisoning.   Even a little spillage that remains in floor cracks and crevices is toxic because the mercury evaporates into toxic vapor.  This is, frankly, irresponsible as well as illegal.  

 

good luck, GJ

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/9/2023 at 2:51 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Highly toxic.  Almost non-disposable, certainly illegal to dispose of without following Haz Waste regs.    Thousands of "family" gold miners in 3rd world countries die each year NOW from mercury poisoning.   Even a little spillage that remains in floor cracks and crevices is toxic because the mercury evaporates into toxic vapor.  This is, frankly, irresponsible as well as illegal.  

 

good luck, GJ

 

And to think we used to play with this in school rolling it around in our hands.

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Missouri Bullet Company web site has a great article about what lead hardness to use.  It is in the tab labeled "Technical."

 

Missouri Bullet Company

 

Opinion and my experience only:  Copper fouling over / under lead fouling is nasty.  I use Sharp Shoot R foaming bore cleaner anytime jacketed ammo is used to assure zero copper left in the barrel.  A nice smooth barrel totally free of copper fouling makes getting the lead out (if any) simple. Just CLP and a patch or two and its gone.  Bad lead smearing is velocity, hardness, bullet diameter, or forcing cone issues normally.

 

I'm kind of slow, just started shooting coated lead bullets.  No lead fouling and able to push the velocity up too.  

Edited by Pb Mark
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When handed someone's revolver with bad lead fowling, my many years solution has been to grab a pure copper "Chore Boy" scrubbing pad, pull or scissor cut a chunk from it, wrap it around a cleaning brush jag and scrub away.  Any liquid to moisten such as Hoppe, CLP, etc.  Very economical.  Copper is soft and does not scratch the steel.  Only true copper Chore Boy.  Never fakes that are steel with a coper coating on them.

Edited by Pb Mark
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7 hours ago, Ya Big Tree said:

And to think we used to play with this in school rolling it around in our hands.

Yeah, and some of us, old enough, remember driving around in cars without seat belts and air bags or safety glass.   Some things in the world are safer than used to be. Science teachers in high schools have actually learned some important things since the 1950s.

 

good luck, GJ

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10 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Yeah, and some of us, old enough, remember driving around in cars without seat belts and air bags or safety glass.   Some things in the world are safer than used to be. Science teachers in high schools have actually learned some important things since the 1950s.

 

good luck, GJ

 

I guess some of our science teachers didn't have all the knowledge they needed yet in the 1950's. The saying "Mad as a Hatter" came about in the 1800's :D

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