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33 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

May be a good idea, but lets make sure the Professionals behave like professionals. Nothin worse than displays of temper on TV by someone you want to be a representative of your and my sport. I have seen enough shooters that only have one or two "good" stages a match and let every one know how good they think they are by slamming guns on unloading table or cursing spotters or TO.

JMO

kR

We are never going to be NASCAR or pro ball.   Not going to be live broadcasting that sometimes catches the ugly side of competition.

Any event would be edited to FIRST and foremost show Cowboy as safe, entertaining, firearms positive and "Family friendly".

 

Unacceptable diva behaviors or worse, manufactured "Orange County Choppers" drama is a no go from step one.

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There have been a number of surveys conducted online, in this and other shooting forums, about increasing participation in cowboy action shooting.  The top two responses for NOT participating are:

An interesting concept and I applaud you for thinking out of the box.  I do have some concerns about your idea though.  When I read through your idea the first thing I thought of was NASCAR.  When NAS

I watch the Outdoor and Sportsman channel, on Wednesday Night at the Range, the outdoor channel has “shooting USA”. They show IDPA matches, and when SASS has live events, they presented Winter Range,

3 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

 I will say we need to do something of we will surely fade away; as sad as that makes me.

This + 1000

I have given this game years of my life. 

Countless hours dedicated to not only shooting, but club operations, stage writing, setting steel and promotion. 

I have bled, broken bones, suffered dehydration and even been hospitalized for my efforts.

And still this game has given me infinitely more than I have given it.

I have gained friends, family, camaraderie and memories that will last me a lifetime.

 

I simply refuse to stand on the sidelines and watch it die a slow death for lack of trying.

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There have been many shows in the past without the hostility of OCC. The Duggars and Robersons come to mind right off. Follow some different folks around the country as they prepare, travel and meet up at shoots.

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5 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

There have been many shows in the past without the hostility of OCC. The Duggars and Robersons come to mind right off. Follow some different folks around the country as they prepare, travel and meet up at shoots.

I think that is fantastic as well.

I believe they call that stuff B roll - its secondary to the main "story" but fills in the backstory and makes the participants real people.

 

I would think to be television successful - the shooters have to be nearly as important as the shooting.

 

Like strongman contests - learning about the person is almost as interesting as watching them lift cars.

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On 1/28/2021 at 4:59 AM, Equanimous Phil said:

I was way more attracted by videos of more "average" shooters than the really super fast ones. Jedi-TV JED iTV for example comes to mind as very welcoming and giving the impression of fun and "you should try"!

 

Equanimous Phil

When I first got into this I was looking for YouTube content and stumbled on Jed iTV. First couple of his vids I was hooked. Binge watched them all. Lots of good info and fun content.

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Creeker, I usually live your ideas, but not this one.  If we make huge changes to this family-friendly sport we live so much, it will cease to be the sport we know and love.

 

I think one of the smartest things the founders did was prohibit sponsorships.  The way it is keeps things friendly.

 

Possum

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Here are a couple of more thoughts to add to the conversation.  First off instead of TV would streaming be cheaper and easier to do?  It would feed into a younger audience as well, maybe too young.  Another is something I recently heard, a team event.  Match a “pro” with a “regular shooter” for combined time against another team of “pro” and “regular shooter”.  The added value to this would be to show that we’re not an all pro sport and if the “regular shooters” are changed out regularly it would add diversity.  Also, if interviews are done a cowboy could mention their  club, popular matches, etc.

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What I love about this forum is that of all the firearms forums I am on [and Mod on a couple] this one is the most friendly and respectful. When someone disagrees with another person, it is more of a couple of friends sitting on the tailgate of a pickup with coffee than screaming profanities! Thank you all.

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1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Here are a couple of more thoughts to add to the conversation.  First off instead of TV would streaming be cheaper and easier to do?  It would feed into a younger audience as well, maybe too young.  Another is something I recently heard, a team event.  Match a “pro” with a “regular shooter” for combined time against another team of “pro” and “regular shooter”.  The added value to this would be to show that we’re not an all pro sport and if the “regular shooters” are changed out regularly it would add diversity.  Also, if interviews are done a cowboy could mention their  club, popular matches, etc.

I honestly think streaming is probably the more likely course.  A couple guys with "cheap" digital cameras and editing suite could put the package together. 

Partner with a known entity for views and house it on youtube as a series.

 

Unlike others; I don't believe every change or alteration runs the risk of collapsing a house of cards.  This game will continue at some grass roots level - but I think we have a pretty cool game and I think EXPOSURE is the path to growth; not removing guns or lessening round counts or allowing Glocks.

 

But for the same reasons that we dont go to the park and watch the pickup basketball game - no one cares enough to invest a lot of time or effort into watching amateur shooters with nothing to lose or gain on video.

 

There has to be loss, reward or danger to engage a viewer.

Since we are going to try to avoid getting anyone hurt - significant prizes are required.

That requires sponsorship and a "category" that can accept said prizes.

 

My idea takes the PRO concept and segregates it from the amateur portion of the match.  Creating an opportunity for publicity, sponsorship and growth (that helps everyone) without harming ANYONE that is not interested/ participating in the PRO component.

 

It could be done and be beneficial to all with the right support and methods.

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Perhaps, instead of looking at how we can change the game to attract new shooters, we should look back to the era of our biggest growth and ask ourselves what’s changed so much since that time.  Their are still a lot of folks out there who would love to shoot CAS as is that don’t know it exists.

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3 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Perhaps, instead of looking at how we can change the game to attract new shooters, we should look back to the era of our biggest growth and ask ourselves what’s changed so much since that time.  Their are still a lot of folks out there who would love to shoot CAS as is that don’t know it exists.

The economy.

SASS came into existence at the perfect conflux of Baby Boomers retiring - a roaring economy and prior to the social media/ streaming video/ entertainment on demand environment we currently experience.

 

SASS exploded because of THREE very important aspects.

Finances.

Nostalgia.

Exposure.

 

And the people it exploded with - a fair number were first time shooters or at minimum first time firearms competitors.

 

Money is tighter now for a lot of people - so either marketing must be LASER focused to find very specific groups (monied, already having western interest, firearms oriented) or must be broadened to cast a net that CREATES those interests.

 

Nostalgia is based on a longing to return to an earlier time - for many it was the movie serials of the 50's or TV shows of the 60's that piqued their cowboy interest. 

Without that "hook" currently set by media - we have to find other methods to entice a visitor (we have a decently entertaining product - but we can not sell it if no one sees it).

 

We have to utilize TODAY'S methods to create interest in a game using obsolete equipment vs. black and tactical. 

That is done by EXPOSURE (and the old saying that "There is no such thing as bad publicity" is somewhat true {your existence being known is the most important thing}) - meaning we lobby for CAS coupons in EVERY gun box - flyers in every gun shop - a TOP to BOTTOM message that stresses we are a competitive sport with era appropriate attire requirements; not a costume dress up social event.

And then exposure via showing that COMPETITION side to folks who have not seen a non self defense based, warrior oriented gun game before.  We need to market not just to existing competitive shooters; but to competitors as a whole. 

Video game players - former athletes, etc. 

 

We need a streaming presence, a youtube presence, a TV presence, a print presence and a ANYWHERE else we might entice interest from presence.

 

But all of this stuff needs a unified message - that is 100% about promotion of the game and the equipment - growing the sport.

Not about promoting their own personalities and drama - not training videos or how to.

But solely and always, "Aint this the coolest thing you've ever seen?" and here's how and where you can get involved.

 

Yesterday is dead.

What is in your rearview mirror is behind you and of lesser consequence than what is in front of you.

 

SASS may not look exactly the same 5 years from now as it does today - it is not the same today as it was 5 years ago or 10 or 20.

Living things grow and evolve and change. 

Or they wither and die.

 

I would rather have a game (even slightly changed) that I can still enjoy with my friends, my wife, my daughter, my grandson's 5-10-20 years from now than sit around reliving memories of a game that no longer exists because it was unable (or worse, unwilling) to adapt.

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here's a recommendation that will get young people with disposable income's attention.  Twitch, set up a livestream channel and start livestreaming your stages, everyone that want's to or knows how.  people get on that platform to watch other people play games.  this is no different.  those kids are looking to get views and if we can make SASS popular on the streaming service, kids might join just to get views and ad money.  

 

Start with just an over the shoulder cam, don't film anything you don't have permission to and make arrangements with the match director before hand.  if kids view this as a video game they can play irl (in real life) they might be willing to drop a couple grand of daddy's money to give it a try...

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On 1/28/2021 at 8:21 PM, Doc Shapiro said:

I believe the basic premise of this is how Western 3 Gun came about. 

 

This is an interesting idea, that bears some thought.  I'm withholding my opinion for now.  Preferring to absorb the discussion.

 

Doc

 

Exactly right about W3G - it was supposed to be the "pro" event for SASS and it was largely banned from all SASS events due to politics.  I participated  in both for a while, but I have to tell you that I don't think there would enough interest to make this into a TV show.  SASS is a very small part of the shooting community and most folks walking around out there don't have any idea that it even exists - nor do they care.

 

And, I do think it would impact our sport as a whole, negatively.  The whole idea behind SASS was to keep it an amateur sport and not USPSA.  Hey what do I know?  

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2 hours ago, Dang It Dan 13202 said:

Exactly right about W3G - it was supposed to be the "pro" event for SASS and it was largely banned from all SASS events due to politics.  I participated  in both for a while, but I have to tell you that I don't think there would enough interest to make this into a TV show.  SASS is a very small part of the shooting community and most folks walking around out there don't have any idea that it even exists - nor do they care.

 

And, I do think it would impact our sport as a whole, negatively.  The whole idea behind SASS was to keep it an amateur sport and not USPSA.  Hey what do I know?  

With all due respect.

The impetus for this idea was a sponsored, advertised, TV show awarding money and prizes to PROFESSIONALS sawing wood.

 

If there is a viewer market for that...

 

There are folks on the internet making a good living because other people WATCH them playing video games.

 

If there is a viewer market for that...

 

Then there is a viewer market for a sport that would play up a number of ideas some folks still hold dear.

American history (even the fictional version)

Pro 2a attitudes.

Family friendly.

Hard work/ dedication/ skill is, and should be, recognized and rewarded.

 

I admit, the founders had a great idea at inception; but they are not infallible nor were they sent engraved stone panels from heaven with directives to follow.

 

Professional and amateur events can exist in the same universe - one does not negate the other.

 

And ultimately; the whole idea was to fix the point you mention about folks not knowing we exist.   

Of course folks don't care about something they don't know exists.  Let's make them aware of our existence AND then let them decide if we are a valid and interesting option for them.

 

And how to do that?

 

It aint word of mouth, gun show tables and a few small youtube channels.

 

It is by taking big steps and bold actions.

  

Our game is getting older and smaller - our participants are dwindling.

 

So we can CHOOSE to try something else - something different - something big and bold.

 

Or we can CHOOSE to continue the same thing that we have done for the last three decades - continue the easy coast on the downhill path toward obscurity, dwindling numbers and eventually blinking out of existence.

All the while hoping that maybe this is the year that somehow the path changes direction all on its own.

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11 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

So we can CHOOSE to try something else - something different - something big and bold.

 

Or we can CHOOSE to continue the same thing that we have done for the last three decades - continue the easy coast on the downhill path toward obscurity, dwindling numbers and eventually blinking out of existence.

All the while hoping that maybe this is the year that somehow the path changes direction all on its own.

 

Well stated, Creeker.

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13 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

With all due respect.

The impetus for this idea was a sponsored, advertised, TV show awarding money and prizes to PROFESSIONALS sawing wood.

 

If there is a viewer market for that...

 

There are folks on the internet making a good living because other people WATCH them playing video games.

 

If there is a viewer market for that...

 

Then there is a viewer market for a sport that would play up a number of ideas some folks still hold dear.

American history (even the fictional version)

Pro 2a attitudes.

Family friendly.

Hard work/ dedication/ skill is, and should be, recognized and rewarded.

 

I admit, the founders had a great idea at inception; but they are not infallible nor were they sent engraved stone panels from heaven with directives to follow.

 

Professional and amateur events can exist in the same universe - one does not negate the other.

 

And ultimately; the whole idea was to fix the point you mention about folks not knowing we exist.   

Of course folks don't care about something they don't know exists.  Let's make them aware of our existence AND then let them decide if we are a valid and interesting option for them.

 

And how to do that?

 

It aint word of mouth, gun show tables and a few small youtube channels.

 

It is by taking big steps and bold actions.

  

Our game is getting older and smaller - our participants are dwindling.

 

So we can CHOOSE to try something else - something different - something big and bold.

 

Or we can CHOOSE to continue the same thing that we have done for the last three decades - continue the easy coast on the downhill path toward obscurity, dwindling numbers and eventually blinking out of existence.

All the while hoping that maybe this is the year that somehow the path changes direction all on its own.

I'm glad you're brainstorming ways to potentially increase SASS membership Creeker.  Just because I, and others, don't think this particular idea is one we can support doesn't mean we don't think something needs to be done.

 

Unfortunately I don't think that just because there is a show about sawing wood that means a SASS oriented show would be successful.  Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but the show about cutting wood has no bearing, nor does the fact that there are video game shows. 

 

I'm willing to consider big bold changes, and I did give this one serious consideration.  Having done that, I've decided it doesn't sound appealing to me.  I believe it would change the game in ways that I would not like.  I know you don't think that's the case, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

 

Just the view from my saddle. 

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I would like to resurrect this thread to throw in another idea.  @Creeker, SASS #43022 I hope you don't see it as a hijack, if so I can delete this post and start a different thread.

 

Over the years I've come to realize that I'm not a particularly creative person and certainly not a person who is prone to coming up with good original ideas.  I have discovered that I'm pretty decent at looking at someone else's plans and coming up with decent 'tweaks' occasionally.

 

I've been thinking about EOT, and the idea of shooting a match more than once, like T-Bone lets you do at Comin At Cha, a thought occurred to me.  Rather than have people declare and shoot as pros as Creeker suggested, why not instead, have the top 20 (or pick a number) from the main match, regardless of category, move on to a final round to determine the overall EOT Champ.   

 

At that point sponsor gear is allowed.  Further, add minimum requirements for shooting different styles, guns, and propellents.  One stage must be shot with BP for example, pick the stage you want.  One stage must be shot gunfighter, shooter's choice which one.  One stage must be shot with a double, one with a '97, etc.  It would certainly be more challenging, and might even be more 'watchable' and marketable for TV.

 

I suspect if you looked at the top twenty EOT finishers over the years, most of them already have the equipment to do this, and probably the skills as well.  

 

If it caught on sponsors would have to spread their money around a bit more to be sure they have a competitor in the mix.  Yeah, there are some Cowboys you can pretty much count on being there every time, but there would be some that made it one year and not the next.


Just a thought.

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I would like to resurrect this thread to throw in another idea.  @Creeker, SASS #43022 I hope you don't see it as a hijack, if so I can delete this post and start a different thread.

 

Over the years I've come to realize that I'm not a particularly creative person and certainly not a person who is prone to coming up with good original ideas.  I have discovered that I'm pretty decent at looking at someone else's plans and coming up with decent 'tweaks' occasionally.

 

I've been thinking about EOT, and the idea of shooting a match more than once, like T-Bone lets you do at Comin At Cha, a thought occurred to me.  Rather than have people declare and shoot as pros as Creeker suggested, why not instead, have the top 20 (or pick a number) from the main match, regardless of category, move on to a final round to determine the overall EOT Champ.   

 

At that point sponsor gear is allowed.  Further, add minimum requirements for shooting different styles, guns, and propellents.  One stage must be shot with BP for example, pick the stage you want.  One stage must be shot gunfighter, shooter's choice which one.  One stage must be shot with a double, one with a '97, etc.  It would certainly be more challenging, and might even be more 'watchable' and marketable for TV.

 

I suspect if you looked at the top twenty EOT finishers over the years, most of them already have the equipment to do this, and probably the skills as well.  

 

If it caught on sponsors would have to spread their money around a bit more to be sure they have a competitor in the mix.  Yeah, there are some Cowboys you can pretty much count on being there every time, but there would be some that made it one year and not the next.


Just a thought.

Captain; not a hijack at all.

And my thought for the head to head stuff was more side match variation along with stages to maintain variety and entertainment value.

The sponsorship ideas were simply to loosen up opportunity for tv exposure.  And afford the nicer props and theatre required to make it watchable.

 

Derringers and pocket pistols - sponsored by Bond Arms.

Bar room stage with a table to tip over (cards and chips to go flying) - reactive targets, etc.

 

"Night time" black powder stage.

Sponsored by Midway USA.

In a darkened room to emphasize the flames.  With glow in the dark targets, etc.

 

Long range "Quigley" rifle competition.

Sponsored by Disney+ Studios and the 30th anniversary digital streaming release of Quigley Down Under.

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

Would not be hard to come up with the variety of events - showcasing and testing the whole battery of the CAS experience.

 

Since these would not be sudden death events - simply scored by time; the "Champion" is scored out the same as a match.  Lowest combined score for all events wins.

 

It could be done.

With ad revenue and sponsorships, the funds and opportunity to make something special and cast a net for the future would be available.

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Interesting thread, but covid has made us sick, killed our loved ones, destroyed our jobs and businesses, disrupted our schools, cancelled our sports, travel, family holidays, you name it. Until covid is at zero new cases we are stuck behind the eight ball. Combine that with the very real fear Americans have of what America’s new leaders might due to our 2nd Amendment rights has made ammo, firearms and reloading components disappear and what little is available is insanely expensive. That 200 rd monthly match has become a very pricy event.  Until these two huge things are resolved all the shooting sports will be in jeopardy especially our little game. 

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Ed you are dead on with your predictions unfortunately.

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OK, I just read through all of this and there's some good points, good ideas and some decent objections.

I'll just offer this,

I go to monthly matches and I realize that I'm closer to the bottom of the scorecard than the top. What I have seen are some amazing shooters that are almost always the top shooters and their names are always the match winners. They work hard for that and have earned those wins. It doesn't dissuade me in the slightest from going to a match and I am happy to be able to shoot with them folks every time.

 

In a certain way, isn't that like having a "Pro" category already?

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There are a fair amount of shooters who put LOTS of time & money into our sport. I think it's a great idea to provide a way for them to make some return on investment or even make a living at it. "The Devil is in the detail", but sounds like a superb idea to me.  Good thinking!!

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On 2/2/2021 at 5:18 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The economy.

SASS came into existence at the perfect conflux of Baby Boomers retiring - a roaring economy and prior to the social media/ streaming video/ entertainment on demand environment we currently experience.

Seriously? I doubt there were many Baby Boomers (Post WWII) folks retiring in the 1990's at the age of 50 to 55 or less.

 When you give a reason for something that is inaccurate it destroys any premise being made.

kR

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11 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

Seriously? I doubt there were many Baby Boomers (Post WWII) folks retiring in the 1990's at the age of 55 or less.

 When you give a reason for something that is inaccurate it destroys any premise being made.

kR

The boomer part is pretty close, but you hit the nail on the head about it’s not retirement. 
 I suggest that in the 90’s the first of the boomers were entering their peak earning years.  This let them buy the guns and gear needed for the sport.  

 Add too it, those early boomers grew up watching westerns on tv and playing “cowboys and Indians” back when they were kids.   With that combination it let them resurrect the games we played as kids with even better grown up firearms.  That’s a big part of what drew me into the sport and fun.  

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6 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

Seriously? I doubt there were many Baby Boomers (Post WWII) folks retiring in the 1990's at the age of 50 to 55 or less.

 When you give a reason for something that is inaccurate it destroys any premise being made.

kR

I seriously doubt you did any actual research into the numbers/ percentage of folks retiring in the 90's/ 2000's.  I have.

https://www.today.com/money/retirement-age-us-rises-61-57-early-90s-1C9959555

When you attempt to dismiss the validity of an entire presentation by utilizing a single point - that shows the weakness of your own opinions. 

You state nothing to support an argument for or against - you simply want to play "gotcha" and latch on to a single point of what you "doubt" is accurate information. 

In other words, you would rather lazily dismiss my entire presentation instead of actively put effort into a counter point based on more than a single point of your doubts and feelings.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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6 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

Seriously? I doubt there were many Baby Boomers (Post WWII) folks retiring in the 1990's at the age of 50 to 55 or less.

 When you give a reason for something that is inaccurate it destroys any premise being made.

kR

In the 90’s the earliest boomers (born 1946) were hitting their 50’s and as you said, some were retiring.  I can see even more retiring in the 2000’s.  
I think more importantly was that in the 90’s, those first boomers were at their max income years , and had the money to buy gear and guns that launched the sport.   
The tail end of the boomers are coming to retirement soon.   
Now to get more GenXers, Y, and Millenials to come in to the fold... 

 

(Baby Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964.  They’re currently between 57-75 years old. There are nearly 72 million boomers still in circulation). 


 

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On 1/28/2021 at 8:55 AM, Shooting Bull said:

 

I'm clean!  I swear!!! :ph34r:

I can vouch for the fact that he doesn't use performance enhancing drugs--freshly bathed is for you to verify!

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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I seriously doubt you did any actual research into the numbers/ percentage of folks retiring in the 90's/ 2000's.  I have.

https://www.today.com/money/retirement-age-us-rises-61-57-early-90s-1C9959555

When you attempt to dismiss the validity of an entire presentation by utilizing a single point - that shows the weakness of your own opinions. 

You state nothing to support an argument for or against - you simply want to play "gotcha" and latch on to a single point of what you "doubt" is accurate information. 

In other words, you would rather lazily dismiss my entire presentation instead of actively put effort into a counter point based on more than a single point of your doubts and feelings.

 

 

 

 

You are the one that used the term baby boomers retiring in what I quoted, then that changed to folks retiring in this quote. That changes the equation entirely.  I don't have to do "research" to know that a large percentage of baby boomers were not retiring in 1995.

kR

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On 2/14/2021 at 12:29 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Long range "Quigley" rifle competition.

Sponsored by Disney+ Studios and the 30th anniversary digital streaming release of Quigley Down Under.

 

Creeker, I love some of your ideas, but I fear the Disney we have now will NEVER support anything gun related other than their own hypocritically produced movies.

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15 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

You are the one that used the term baby boomers retiring in what I quoted, then that changed to folks retiring in this quote. That changes the equation entirely.  I don't have to do "research" to know that a large percentage of baby boomers were not retiring in 1995.

kR

Pedantic much?

You contend a group of folks were not retiring in 1995 (and since I never said 1995 - should I dismiss your thought in its entirety?)

And to further support your point... Well, you don't support your point, do you?  Because why do any "research" when we can just rely on our feelings?

And lastly the growth boom in SASS took place from 1995 to 2005.  

When the conflux of economy, retirees (regardless of their demographic) with disposable income and prior to the concept of widespread media entertainment on demand had exploded.

 

My point was that, unless you can somehow recreate that point in time - recycling the same recruitment methods from that time will likely not work. 

And we need to look forward to the reality of todays market and marketing instead of dreaming about 25 years ago.

Which requires money, exposure and a different message.

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And very lastly - I understand that not everyone will like my ideas.

 

Some may not like it because they see flaws that are possibly damaging to the game or too great to overcome.

Some may not like it because I have failed to present well.

Some may not like it because, frankly, it's simply easier to tear down than build up.

And some may just not care.

 

But I don't care myself - I love this game.

I will continue to try to help the game not just survive my lifetime; but flourish so my grandchildren might have the same opportunities that I have enjoyed.

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So, we already have pros playing the game, they're just not displaying anything while shooting and I'm pretty sure not many, if any are sponsored by firearms manufacturers.   

 

From my perspective, if there's a way to increase SASS revenue and attendance through having a professional component, I'm all for it.  Having said that, it has to be done in such a way that it has no impact on the game for the rest of us.  That's one reason I'm not fond of people shooting a match having declared as pros.  I would prefer everyone shoot the matches we have, the way we have them, and whomever qualifies qualifies.  At that point, the match is over for everybody else, and I don't see how they have been impacted by what comes next.

 

Once the pro round begins let shooters have some minimal amount of sponsor apparel, tastefully and in cowboy style. 

 

Of course all this is dependent on there being an interest from sponsors, shooters, and potential viewers.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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4 hours ago, Smoky Pistols said:

I can vouch for the fact that he doesn't use performance enhancing drugs--freshly bathed is for you to verify!

 

Spring is just around the corner.  Almost time for my annual bath. :P

 

Creeker you're wrong.  It's not your ideas we don't like, it's YOU. :lol:

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

Creeker you're wrong.  It's not your ideas we don't like, it's YOU. :lol:

Now that is an acceptable and understandable point.

 

But someone has to be the bad guy and I'm okay with that.

 

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