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Hoss

WTC breaking the 170

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I’m TO. Shooter clearly and no doubt breaks 170 (Broke 180 for that matter!) with loaded gun. (WB match was a 1911 so cocked with round in chamber) I stopped shooter, gave him the SDQ. I was pretty shook up. (In fact gave up TOing for a while) 

 

got to thinking about the situation later, realized that while we were in a building, the loading table was just a few feet over, and the shooters there were most likely swept. (Allthough I could not see them). My question, should this have been a MDQ for sweeping?  While shooter could not see the table because of wall, the wall certainly would not have stopped the bullet had he had a ND. 
 

FWIW shooter elected to MDQ himself and did not shoot the rest of the match. 
 

this could have been a tragedy. We must all remember that muzzle control must be foremost in our mind. 

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Is the loading table on or real close to being on the firing line (just with a thin wall between the firing line and the table?)   If so, then breaking the 180 almost certainly swept those at the table with a loaded gun.

 

It was a good thing the shooter MDQ'd himself.  He did the right thing.   I can see that you had not thought about the pards behind the wall before the shooter began the stage.   Next time, I bet you will.   And this would be the point (when shooter was getting close to the 170 line) that I would have been calling out "MUZZLE", and be about to put my hand on his arm to restrain it.  

 

Certainly a good point to remind us all about.  

Thanks, GJ 

 

 

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As a NRA Range Safety Officer, I examine every range for possible hazards. I find quite a few, sadly enough. ember, we are responsible for our own safety. When my kids, Silly Billy 555550 and Dirty Dog Dave 555551 were small, I was meticulously examining every range. Not every SASS pard is a long time competitor. Some have only shot at their local range and don't have a lot of experience. We all should do our part to ensure the safety of all on the range.

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wrong post

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If you sweep someone with a loaded firearm it's time to go home, MDQ. 

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If you sweep someone with a loaded firearm it's time to go home, MDQ. 

absolutely!

 

WB SHB pg 21

 

Cowboy SHB pg 24

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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I shot IPSC for eight years before starting cowboy action in 2004.  Seen a lot but have not seen everything.

 

Most good ranges would require breaking about 250 degrees to sweep a loading table.  An SDQ for breaking a 170 is reasonable.  Penalizing a shooter for a poorly arranged stage may not always be reasonable to me.

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Penalizing a shooter for a poorly arranged stage may not always be reasonable to me.

 

It should never get to that point. 

 

A TO seeing a stage layout that cannot keep all persons safe needs to stop shooting on the stage until the Match Director corrects the stage layout or decides the stage will not be shot today.

 

In this case (it sounds like), a single layer of boards between the shooting positions and the loading table is NOT sufficient to safely stop even our Cowboy or Wild Bunch rounds.   Boards are not a safety barrier for a loaded gun pointed at pards behind the wall.  You are sweeping them if the gun muzzle goes past the 180 line and crosses their position.

 

The 170 rule is our PRIME safety rule that keeps folks safe when other things "hit the fan" during a stage.  It's not a rule to keep folks from being as fast as possible, or to ensure fair engagement of the stage.

 

Put yourself in the position of explaining that it wasn't serious because "sweeping did not occur" (since the shooter was hidden behind the dividing wall) to a public safety officer who investigates an accident (or the next of kin, for that matter) when a loaded firearm discharges through the thin wall.  Loading and unloading tables up on the firing line DEMAND utmost attention to muzzle control when handling loaded guns.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I shot IPSC for eight years before starting cowboy action in 2004.  Seen a lot but have not seen everything.

 

Most good ranges would require breaking about 250 degrees to sweep a loading table.  An SDQ for breaking a 170 is reasonable.  Penalizing a shooter for a poorly arranged stage may not always be reasonable to me.

IPSC is totally different and in my book more dangerous.

This is cowboy action, break the 170, especially with a loaded gun,...and you're done, regardless of where the LT and ULT are ??

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MATCH DISQUALIFICATION PENALTIES (MDQ) A Match Disqualification (MDQ or “Match DQ”) penalty is of the most serious in nature, and means the shooter puts his/her firearms away and is done shooting for the duration of the match. - Two accumulated SDQ penalties or Two Spirit of the Game assessments. - Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct. - Willful failure to comply with a “Cease Fire” or “Stop” command given by, and while under the positive control of the CRO/TO. - Shooting under the influence of alcohol, prescription drugs, or any substance or medication that may impair the shooter’s physical or mental abilities. - A shooter leaving the firing line with an un-cleared, malfunctioning firearm unless under the direct supervision of a Match Official. - Shooting illegal ammunition (Ammo which exceeds the max velocities, and ringed or necked shotgun shells. This does not include ammo that does not meet the power factor). - Dropping a loaded firearm. - Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter. SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING SOCIETY Shooter’s Handbook Copyright© Single Action Shooting Society, Inc. 2017 Version 22.2 23 - Any discharge at the loading or unloading areas. - Any discharge that is deemed unsafe. - Sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm. - Third offense, in the same match, for “shooting out of category.” - Interpersonal conflicts.

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If you sweep someone with a loaded firearm it's time to go home, MDQ. 

I agree 100% with you. My question is does the wall in a building effect the sweeping. (No question, the wall will not stop a bullet (but a dentist will).... nod to Lonseome Dove) does the wall matter?  Given that most ranges have a common firing line with loading/unloading tables adjacent, most any gun that breaks the 180 is sweeping somebody, whether shooter can see them or not. 
 

 

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My question is does the wall in a building effect the sweeping.

 

And my answer above is - NO!  The wall can't stop a bullet, so the pard is swept.  It's just as potentially deadly if the loading table guy is visible or not.   This is not a visibility rule, it's a safety rule.

 

I would not assume most ranges have a common firing line and table setup.   Of the 20 or so SASS ranges I've shot at, only one had a common line and it's defunct now.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Oops, make that about 1.6.   The first four stages, and stages 7-10 (?) at WR have in-line L and UL tables.

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And my answer above is - NO!  The wall can't stop a bullet, so the pard is swept.  It's just as potentially deadly if the loading table guy is visible or not.   This is not a visibility rule, it's a safety rule.

 

I would not assume most ranges have a common firing line and table setup.   Of the 20 or so SASS ranges I've shot at, only one had a common line and it's defunct now.

 

Good luck, GJ

I’m in agreement with the sweeping. Trust me, I lost sleep over this. It could have been a horrible tragedy. It’s funny how these things go. Happens so fast, then it’s like in slow motion trying to make the situation safe. I’m definitely going to address it at our next match. 
 

as for common firing line/loading/unloading tables,  more common in these parts than not. Of the 11 clubs I shoot at (some more than others!) 9 of them have mostly common lines. The one that doesn’t actually presents the most problems. Maybe we are just not used to it.  One stage has unloading table perpendicular to firing line, pointed into a berm. All good. Until the ULT officer walked around the table, facing me as I cleared my guns!!! (Yes I stopped and told him to get away!!!) 

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If you sweep someone with a loaded firearm it's time to go home, MDQ. 

Pet Peeve Alert

 

No where does any rule say you must go home. I've seen many folks stay and help the posse.

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Pet Peeve Alert

 

No where does any rule say you must go home. I've seen many folks stay and help the posse.

You are correct. The couple times I've been MDQ'd I stayed and worked. 

Maybe I should restate, time for the guns to go home. Back to the vehicle.

 

 

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The one that doesn’t actually presents the most problems... One stage has unloading table perpendicular to firing line, pointed into a berm. All good. Until the ULT officer walked around the table

 

THAT is not caused by the design of the stage furniture.  THAT is a problem with the ?SAFETY? officer who did that!

Walking in front of a gun as someone is unloading?   Wow.    

 

(Not sure that fellow would be qualified to take RO I class.....might end up eating the Shooter's Handbook.)  :lol::blink:

 

Good luck, GJ

  

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THAT is not caused by the design of the stage furniture.  THAT is a problem with the ?SAFETY? officer who did that!

Walking in front of a gun as someone is unloading?   Wow.    

 

(Not sure that fellow would be qualified to take RO I class.....might end up eating the Shooter's Handbook.)  :lol::blink:

 

Good luck, GJ

  

Yea, kinda blew my mind too. Some people just don’t think. 

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It's not only the LT and ULT tables that are an issue. Spotters are typically on the line or even looking out windows or doorways at times.

 

Tully

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Saw a stage that had a fence across the front, with an opening in the middle to shoot from. Table set in opening to stage long guns. Shooter shot long gun, staged it, properly pulled his cross draw. A counter had moved up and was leaning in the fence. He started squalling “he swept me”. TO said no, you moved into his 170. Which I thought was the correct call. Moral of the story, have to be aware of everything going on around you! 
 

I remember an old cowboy tell me that cows will do stupid things, expect it. I think the same could be said of cowboys!!! Brain fades, heat, trying to get a good position to count from, and yes, plain ole stupidity can get us all. 

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Saw a stage that had a fence across the front, with an opening in the middle to shoot from. Table set in opening to stage long guns. Shooter shot long gun, staged it, properly pulled his cross draw. A counter had moved up and was leaning in the fence. He started squalling “he swept me”. TO said no, you moved into his 170. Which I thought was the correct call. Moral of the story, have to be aware of everything going on around you! 
It was!

 

I remember an old cowboy tell me that cows will do stupid things, expect it. I think the same could be said of cowboys!!! Brain fades, heat, trying to get a good position to count from, and yes, plain ole stupidity can get us all. 

 

Spotters, spectators, video/photographers who move into the shooter's 170 (aka kill zone) are liable to get a royal tail-chewing after a CEASE FIRE is declared mid-stage;

...and should be fined for the cost of the shooter's ammo used for the reshoot.

JMHO

 

 

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We had a stage a while back that called for four pistols, two holstered and two staged.  Pistols were last. I was the TO when a shooter decided to draw the holstered pistols, shoot them, then place them on the table with the two pistols that hadn’t been fired yet. I had a quick thought that doing that, though legal, might not be a good idea.


Sure enough the shooter paused, looking at all four pistols and trying to remember which two were still loaded. He proceeded to pick one up and attempt to point it at his own head (trying to look into the cylinders to see if it was loaded or not). I stopped that before he could sweep himself or break the 170.

 

I laugh about it now, but at the time it scared me.

 

When the buzzer goes off people can do stupid things. Luckily seeing him stage the empty pistols ‘primed’ me to be ready to act quickly.

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We had a stage a while back that called for four pistols, two holstered and two staged.  Pistols were last. I was the TO when a shooter decided to draw the holstered pistols, shoot them, then place them on the table with the two pistols that hadn’t been fired yet. I had a quick thought that doing that, though legal, might not be a good idea.


Sure enough the shooter paused, looking at all four pistols and trying to remember which two were still loaded. He proceeded to pick one up and attempt to point it at his own head (trying to look into the cylinders to see if it was loaded or not). I stopped that before he could sweep himself or break the 170.

 

I laugh about it now, but at the time it scared me.

 

When the buzzer goes off people can do stupid things. Luckily seeing him stage the empty pistols ‘primed’ me to be ready to act quickly.

 

I remember stopping a shooter who thought he could check for a squib on the line like that...

 

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got to thinking about the situation later, realized that while we were in a building, the loading table was just a few feet over, and the shooters there were most likely swept. (Allthough I could not see them).

 

 

Just because I'm feeling ornery I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works.  

 

You saw him commit a SDQ penalty but you didn't actually see him commit an MDQ penalty, is that correct? 

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Just because I'm feeling ornery I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works.  

 

You saw him commit a SDQ penalty but you didn't actually see him commit an MDQ penalty, is that correct? 

Yes, I saw the gun break the 170. Closer to 185 or so.  And while I knew there were most likely folks on the other side of the wall, I could not actually see them. Going forward, with time to think about it, should have been the MDQ. As it was I called SDQ, shooter called MDQ on himself. To his credit he did stay and do posse chores the rest of the match. 
 

while 170 violations occur, they are rarely called as its usually very brief, and barely. As a TO of counter you say “did he or didn’t he”? If you are not sure BOD kicks in. Probably the hardest penalty to call in our game. 

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Yes, I saw the gun break the 170. Closer to 185 or so.  And while I knew there were most likely folks on the other side of the wall, I could not actually see them. Going forward, with time to think about it, should have been the MDQ. As it was I called SDQ, shooter called MDQ on himself. To his credit he did stay and do posse chores the rest of the match. 
 

while 170 violations occur, they are rarely called as its usually very brief, and barely. As a TO of counter you say “did he or didn’t he”? If you are not sure BOD kicks in. Probably the hardest penalty to call in our game. 

 

So the answer to question is no. You saw him break the 170 (SDQ). But you didn’t see him sweep anybody. 

 

I’m not at all trying to pick on you. Quite the opposite. I congratulate you for having the courage and integrity to make a call a lot of TOs won’t. I’m also kind of telling you to not beat yourself up for not making a call you did’t actually see. 

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You are correct. The couple times I've been MDQ'd I stayed and worked. 

Maybe I should restate, time for the guns to go home. Back to the vehicle.

 

 

Depends on why the MDQ is issued.  If it is issued for belligerent attitude, or fighting, for example, the MD may want to excuse them from the range.  It is up to the range officials and should remain such.  

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You saw him break the 170 (SDQ). But you didn’t see him sweep anybody. 

 

This might be best solved by not building a COMPLETE , TIGHT WALL between the shooting line and the loading table (for on-the-line tables).   Leave a board out about waist high.   The boards are there mostly to stop some splatter.   They still will stop the most dangerous splatter with a "view port" board taken down.   If you can see a pard's waist through the port, you know a pard is at the loading table.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Depends on why the MDQ is issued.  If it is issued for belligerent attitude, or fighting, for example, the MD may want to excuse them from the range.  It is up to the range officials and should remain such.  

Haven't had to deal with a shooter that has been over zealous in quite a few years. Most MDQ's I've experienced were dropped guns. I tripped and fell at a state match, pistol was laying on the ground when I got up, I put my guns away and ran the timer for the next 90 shooters. Sure made the posse leaders day.

 

Many years ago shooters seemed to be more argumentative, no so much anymore. Now they are more upset with themselves than others. RO training and better understanding of the rules has negated much of the belligerent behavior. Have not seen a fight on the range. 

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Haven't had to deal with a shooter that has been over zealous in quite a few years. Most MDQ's I've experienced were dropped guns. I tripped and fell at a state match, pistol was laying on the ground when I got up, I put my guns away and ran the timer for the next 90 shooters. Sure made the posse leaders day.

 

Many years ago shooters seemed to be more argumentative, no so much anymore. Now they are more upset with themselves than others. RO training and better understanding of the rules has negated much of the belligerent behavior. Have not seen a fight on the range. 

Agree.  Fights and animated arguments on the range seem nonexistent.  I have seen a couple physical conflicts that required third party intervention during evening activities, but happily, that kind of thing seems to dissipate along with the alcohol by next day's shoot.  

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An armed society is a polite society!

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