Shotgun Chokes for CAS Target Distances

[bgavin]

Q:  is there any advantage to using cylinder chokes at our short target distances for a wider pattern?

Stoeger offers five chokes, Cylinder to Full, for their Coach Supreme.
These come from the factory with Modified (left) and Improved Cylinder (right) installed.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Our shortened coach guns work extremely well in most cowboy main matches.  That would be a "Cylinder" choke for those that don't understand chokes.

 

Some side matches that involve clay targets (cowboy trap, cowboy skeet, cowboy clays, wobble trap, etc) are shot at far enough distances that those shooting chokes with some restriction have a slight advange (or even significant advantage).   

 

A cylinder choke (no choke) easily provides a 12 in wide pattern out to about 15 yards.

 

At our normal match distances (8 yards), a tight choke (Modified or Full) will make it HARDER to get a knockdown to fall than cylinder does, because the pattern of those tight chokes is quite a bit smaller, and it is quite easy to miss a stationary target up close!

 

Probably 80% of the guns shot in matches are cylinder and cylinder.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

[Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life]

My main match 20" barrelled 10 gauge 3-1/2" double has a cylinder bore. It is awesome and never fails to knock down SASS targets. My cowboy trap ten has a long barrel and has a tight (full) choke. They do the job for me stuffed with wart hog loads of Holy Black and 7-1/2 shot. I have also used it for duck and goose hunting using smokeless. and heavier shot depending on the bird.

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

When I shot Stoeger's I used aftermarket cylinder choke tubes for CAS.

[bgavin]

 

A cylinder choke (no choke) easily provides a 12 in wide pattern out to about 15 yards.

 

At our normal match distances (8 yards), a tight choke (Modified or Full) will make it HARDER to get a knockdown to fall than cylinder does, because the pattern of those tight chokes is quite a bit smaller, and it is quite easy to miss a stationary target up close!

 

Probably 80% of the guns shot in matches are cylinder and cylinder.

 

 

This is my intuitive understanding as well.
 

[Eyesa Horg]

I use IC chokes in my Stoeger with no issue.

[Old Ranger]

So your saying that I am better off removing the chokes that came installed on my Stoeger Supreme Coach gun ,and shooting it with no chokes installed at all, would that cause any damage to thread inside barrel making it hard or impossible to install any chokes if so desired in the future.

[Crisco]

If threaded for chokes, don't shoot it without them.  The cylinder bores referred to above are often simply barrels that were cut off, thereby removing the choke. I would suggest using those that came with it, and if you decide you want a more open pattern, buy a couple of cylinder choke tubes.

From what I have seen, the lighter the load you shoot, the more you will appreciate having some choke to get more shot on the target.

[Patagonia Pete]

[bgavin]

Thanks!

I've seen this table in print format, but not as a graphic image.

Q: do you have a URL for this?

[Patagonia Pete]

 

Thanks!

I've seen this table in print format, but not as a graphic image.

Q: do you have a URL for this?

No ... not right now ... I have had it in my photo collection for a long time. I'm sure it will pop up out there somewhere ... I'll see if I can find it again and post a link.

For the people who always hit their shotgun targets dead on ... it is academic ... they can use any choke they want ...

For me ... it gets crazy sometimes and I need all the insurance I can get.   

[bgavin]

I found it, and others.

Looking them over, at CAS distances of 8 yards, it appears cylinder is the obvious choice.
I don't (yet) shoot side matches.
If I get lucky, I will trade my neighbor for his Stevens 311C and 28" barrels, fixed chokes, for CAS trap.

I shoot a Remington V3 for my weekly trap shoots.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

At one time, my sweetie was shooting her '97 with a full choke.  Pattern (sic) on the targets was the size of a quarter.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

My shortened SKB has no chokes, just whatever the barrel is. Hits knockdowns and birds so......

Ike

[Ozark Huckleberry]

You probably already know this, but for the folks reading through it as they pass by -- if you're changing out choke tubes, make sure you get flush mount. (SHB p. 34)

 

- Shotgun barrels may have internal choke tubes installed provided they do not extend beyond the muzzle.

[Ripsaw]

When I was shooting a Stoeger, I put Cylinder chokes in both tubes. 

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I use IC in both barrels in all my SxS shotguns. Been to one club that actually would throw a clay bird on one of the stages.

[Noz]

For no good reason other than the modified is what I shoot for a game load, that is what I shoot for Cowboy.

[Orient Express]

What brand of aftermarket flush chokes will fit in the Stoeger Coachgun Supreme?

[watab kid]

i have no idea what my stoger coach came with but my stevens hammered double was shortened so its cyl/cyl and my 1897 came as a cyl so its gonna stay that forever 

[Patagonia Pete]

 

What brand of aftermarket flush chokes will fit in the Stoeger Coachgun Supreme?

IIRC you are gonna want a WinChoke (Winchester) screw ins for a Stoeger. 

For cylinder ... that would be a Carlson 12217 or equiv. 

https://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/choke-tubes-accessories/choke-tubes/12gauge-win-choke-choke-tubes-prod40877.aspx

https://grabagun.com/carlson-s-12g-win-replace-tube-cyl.html

[bgavin]

Midwest Gun Parts offers Stoeger chokes at $32 each.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

What brand of aftermarket flush chokes will fit in the Stoeger Coachgun Supreme?

From Carlson's web site:

Stoeger Uplander (Side by Side) Shotguns
Interchanges with Carlson's Winchester, Browning Invector & Mossberg 500 style threads

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

 

What brand of aftermarket flush chokes will fit in the Stoeger Coachgun Supreme?

 

You can go to the source (except they're less than half the price at Brownell's).

 

Stoeger 12 ga choke tubes

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

Our shortened coach guns work extremely well in most cowboy main matches.  That would be a "Cylinder" choke for those that don't understand chokes.

 

At our normal match distances (8 yards), a tight choke (Modified or Full) will make it HARDER to get a knockdown to fall than cylinder does, because the pattern of those tight chokes is quite a bit smaller, and it is quite easy to miss a stationary target up close!

 

Probably 80% of the guns shot in matches are cylinder and cylinder.

 

With all do respect, with the exception of the last sentence, I disagree 100% with everything in the above statement.

 

I do not dispute that most folks shoot short barrel shotguns with no choke.   But, I am one of the 20% that does otherwise.

 

My original Main Match shotgun was a 20" no choke 97.   Occasionally I would for fun use me 18" Parker, again no choke.  I often had to reengage targets that failed to fall.

One day I got myself a 30" full choke 97, just because I wanted to have one in that configuration.   After using it once, it quickly became my primary main match shotgun.   I also recently obtained a 30" FF Parker.

 

I almost never miss or have to reengage with the longer barrel and tighter choke.   For me at least, the longer barrel just naturally points at the target better.   And the tighter choke concentrates the pattern a bit more on the target, assuring that it goes down.

 

So when all is said and done, try different chokes and barrel lengths and use what works best for you.   I have a feeling that a lot of people use the short no choke shotguns because they've been told that it's the best, as evidenced by the fact that it is the overwhelming favorite.   As such most folks never even consider an alternative configuration.   But I'd be willing to bet that if more people actually tried the longer barrels and the tighter choke that a lot of people might switch to it.

 

Just my opinion and guess.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Most folks buy a shotgun first, then wonder if the choking is correct after they already own it.  I think the OP may be in largely in that boat.

 

So, let's dismiss that you prefer a long barrel on your shotguns.  That's your choice.  It's obviously not the choice of the majority of cowboy shooters.  I own several 30" barrel shotguns.  I just don't shoot them in SASS except perhaps a Cowboy Trap or Clays side match.  I don't want to step all over your choice, and I would wager you don't want to step on mine.  So, please keep the length of barrel out of this discussion.

 

When a shooter's shotgun has been bored and tapped for choke tubes, he has the delightful option of selecting the choke constriction he wants.  What constriction should he choose for main matches?  That was my understanding of what the OP was really asking.   For that, I ALWAYS choose cylinder.   Many others that have a choice do too.  All of them who had barrels shortened made that choice, too (unless they had the short barrels reamed and tapped).

 

So, my recommendation for a cowboy gun is a cylinder choke.   It will recoil less than a gun with tight chokes.  It's easier to clean (slightly).   But most importantly, it is more likely to hit the target when there is some aiming error.   If you always hit the target dead center, then what choke you use is immaterial.  But if you are moving fast and taking an instinctive shot rather than a precisely aimed one, you will (statistically provable) knock down more shotgun targets with a cylinder choke than a full. 

 

If all our targets were shot from the handicap trap line (or a benchrest), this game would be .... trap (or turkey shooting).

 

Good luck, GJ

[bgavin]

 

Most folks buy a shotgun first, then wonder if the choking is correct after they already own it.  I think the OP may be in largely in that boat.

 

Yep.
This OP is exactly in that boat, which is why I bought the Supreme which allows interchangeable chokes.

At my weekly trap get-together we did an ad-hoc pattern test of the new Stoeger.
The test distance was farther than typical CAS, and both barrels shoot off-hand 16" high and 16" Left with the factory choke pair.
I attribute this to the shooter (me) and not the gun.

Next time at the trap range, I will set up a more formal test at 8 yards, and shot from a bench rest.

I don't have a dog in the fight, so I value every post here as something new to learn.
Other than wishful thinking, I have no illusions of being a serious competitor in the game... just shooting for fun and my own amazement.

Q: has anybody taken pattern measurements with different chokes at 8 yards?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I've seen on the target plates the quarter size pattern of a full choke, as Co. Coffinmaker reports.

And I very often see the dodge-ball size pattern that a cylinder choke makes.

 

So a quarter is about 0.95" in diameter.  That's Full.

And a dodge ball is about 5" in diameter.  Cylinder choke.

 

That may be a start for your measurements at 8 yards.   But if you want a laugh, ask that same question over on Shotgun World site.  

 

Good luck, GJ

[bgavin]

I get beat up on Shotgun World.

["Big Boston"]

Most shotguns that have been shortened, do not have any choke, they are true cylinder bore. (restating the obvious)

 

In 12 ga. for the most part, that is what works. I have a '97, one that has a shortened full choke barrel. After shooting a couple of meets I felt compelled to check the chamber on my 1900's shotgun. Not 2 3/4". I had the forcing cone lengthened to accommodate 2 3/4" shells. For S&G I decided to retest the pattern. At cowboy distance it was large, about 12" and real even. I was surprised at how much the pattern had improved. Who'd a thunk patterning was even necessary. 

 

With 1 1/8oz of #7 1/2 or #8 shot, it has plenty of power to move the clapper on our one funky targets.

 

Here's the thing, my spare is a clone, with screw in chokes, and after a bit of testing I settled on a skeet choke. That allows me to go down to 7/8 of shot. The pattern is a bit smaller, but hits are just as solid.

 

Patterning and tuning do have benefits, although in reality, it don't take much of a shotgun to get-r-done.

 

For my first time shooting cowboy I used a gifted to me '97 with a 30" full choked barrel, it worked OK as well. A longer barrel isn't that much of a disadvantage, but you'd better be on the target with that full choke. A 3" pattern at 10 yards is small, not much room for error.  

 

At our meets, a buckaroo with a .410, probably choked M/F smacks the targets just fine. Yet one shooter with a 20 has anemic hits IMHO. if you have lots of pellets, you can have a bigger pattern, but without adequate pellets a big pattern gets a bit ineffective. 

 

https://www.hunter-ed.com/montana/studyGuide/Shotgun-Choke-and-Shot-Pattern/201027_700048225/

 

 

 

[bgavin]

I'm looking at 12-ga, #8 shot, 307 pellets in a 3/4 oz load, 14.5 grains of Clays, CB0175-12 wad, Gun Club hulls and Fed 209A primer.
On paper, this should give me 1165 fps at 7700 psi, and a fairly light recoil around 9.8 lbs.

I'm told that #8 doesn't sting quite as bad as larger shot, should it bounce back on me.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just an FYI regarding external-hammer 12ga. SxS's
Rossi Coach guns (20" bbls.) have IC/M chokes

TTNs (20") are cylinder bored.
I know a number of shooters who have used them successfully for clays and trap (as well as reg'lar CAS).

[bgavin]

I ordered a pair of cylinder chokes for my Stoeger before the parts-order-ban takes effect in CA on 1/1/2020.

Q: can one use Lubriplate or Permatex anti-seize as a choke lube, instead of buying some fancy (read: pricey) product that does the same?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Most hi-temp lubes will work well for the shooting cowboys do.  I use Mobil One Synthetic on mine sometimes.   The metal particles in the never-seize lubes really do keep the threads from locking tight at high temps, though.     If I shot BP through choke tubes, I believe I would seek out some never-seize, though..... doesn't have to be "the high price spread."

 

Good luck, GJ

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE to Garrison Joe (all)  His comments be spot on.

 

PS:  I only have 6 Hammer Doubles.  All of them are either factory short (TTN) or Hacksaw MacGurk Short (18 1/4) and the only time I have to pick up a shotgun target is when I miss.  Yep.  You certainly can miss at 10 paces wid a shotgun.