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Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409

44WCF crimping problem

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Normally I load and use the Lee Factory Crimp die which works well with a full case of BP. But when I load smokeless that is another story and I end up with collapsing bullets. I cannot get the seating crimping die to do both I have tried. Is there another crimp die or am open to other suggestions.

 

Thanks

Sgt Hochbauer

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Normally I load and use the Lee Factory Crimp die which works well with a full case of BP. But when I load smokeless that is another story and I end up with collapsing bullets. I cannot get the seating crimping die to do both I have tried. Is there another crimp die or am open to other suggestions.

 

Thanks

Sgt Hochbauer

I had the same problems when I went smokeless with .44-40. My solution? I sold all my .44-40 guns and went .38!;)

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For this cartridge, and 32-20, I use Lee dies along with a Lee Factory Crimp die.   I do not attempt to crimp with seating die, I just use it to push the bullet into the case, and then crimp with the FCD.  It sounds to me like you are doing the same thing.   My initial reaction is to tell you to adjust the FCD to crimp more.  But note that there is a maximum as to how much it can crimp.

 

What size bullet you using?

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For this cartridge, and 32-20, I use Lee dies along with a Lee Factory Crimp die.   I do not attempt to crimp with seating die, I just use it to push the bullet into the case, and then crimp with the FCD.  It sounds to me like you are doing the same thing.   My initial reaction is to tell you to adjust the FCD to crimp more.  But note that there is a maximum as to how much it can crimp.

 

What size bullet you using?

 

I use the same set up as H.K. Uriah mentions for BP and smokeless on a Dillon 650, without issues. What size powder funnel are you using? It should be a snug fit, mine is .429. and my bullets are .427.

Tully

Edited by Tully Mars

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Machine the end of the factory crimp die a little and the case will go into it farther giving you more crimp. My smokiless 44 wcf loads have no crimp groove and they still work fine.

kR

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Normally I load and use the Lee Factory Crimp die which works well with a full case of BP. But when I load smokeless that is another story and I end up with collapsing bullets. I cannot get the seating crimping die to do both I have tried. Is there another crimp die or am open to other suggestions.

 

Thanks

Sgt Hochbauer

 

I now use separate seating and crimping dies.  I found that for smokeless I was getting some telescoping rounds in the rifle until I went with the Redding Profile Crimp Die, and set it so I get a bit of a roll crimp pressed into the crimp groove.   No problems at all since I started using this method.

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+1 on Redding Profile Crimp die for 44-40 smokeless

--Dawg

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+2 on the Redding Profile crimp die.  I was having the same issue whenever I shot smokeless this fixed it.

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For my 200 grain .430 RNFP bullets from Bullets by Scarlett; same as I use for 44 Special; RCBS Cowboy dies with a 44 Russian/Spl/Mag expander (430) work with no issues and seat and crimp using one die. The crimp is a nice roll, no sweat.

44 WCF die sets are likely to be expecting .427-8 bullets, so expect loading or chambering issues with larger bullets. The cases need to be lubed, and the sizer's decapping pin base should be set to allow the case to be fully engaged by the die body. In order for these to fit in my Uberti Outlaw, bored and chambered for the larger size bullet, trim length is 1.285 and COL is 1.570.

I have a nearly full suite of RCBS Cowboy dies sets, which solved all my issues with loading lead bullets that are larger in diameter than jacketed.

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I think that just  shows that the LCD was not holding the bullet in place, it was the BP powder. +4 on the Redding crimp die. You do have to make sure all the brass is very close to the same length with the Redding, though.  I  load BP for my daughter and I and smokeless for my son, and all I do is change the powder settings.  And as a plus I found the rounded edge of the brass eliminated a few hang-ups in my daughter's rifle when the front edge of teh brass would catch on the sharp rear edge of the chamber compared to my previous crimper.

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I think that just  shows that the LCD was not holding the bullet in place, it was the BP powder. +4 on the Redding crimp die. You do have to make sure all the brass is very close to the same length with the Redding, though.  I  load BP for my daughter and I and smokeless for my son, and all I do is change the powder settings.  And as a plus I found the rounded edge of the brass eliminated a few hang-ups in my daughter's rifle when the front edge of teh brass would catch on the sharp rear edge of the chamber compared to my previous crimper.

To be useful, responses should be qualified by which of the bullet sizes is being loaded, basically .428 or .430.

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True, but my point was that his crimper was not really doing the job, and was only discovered after switching powder. I personally made my own larger expander plug as I like to use .429 cast bullets, using only Starline brass for consistent length.

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If you are using 44-40 profile bullets, use the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp Die.

Untitled.png

 

77257978_482302929079677_1202205459759497216_n.jpg

68736141_1238917699622144_3806735363913809920_n.thumb.jpg.7a495a4decd6898e8da05c54300cffda.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack

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Same bullet, 43-214A, cast with wheel weights, pulled after being crimped with a Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp Die

78421203_440114046672758_7041699946667442176_n.jpgunnamed.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack

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Before leaving this topic I would like to be sure what difference the type of powder would make. If the black powder load was supporting the bullet, that suggests that seat and crimp dies should be set without any powder in a case or with smokeless powder loaded below the bullet's level. Then the black powder load would be reduced, if there were any issues once rounds contained black powder. If experiencing "collapsing" bullets, telescoping, etc.  with smokeless powder, that sounds like the fault was with the black powder settings. It also sounds like the amount of crimp and neck tension was not capturing the bullet.

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Hope it helps Roscoe

For those using a Lyman 427098 bullet with black powder or smokeless powder, here is a comparison with the 098 and an original pre-1884. Note that the Redding Profile Crimp "curves", forming to the o'give profile, rather than rolling the crimp. This crimp is on the driving band but just shy of the forward edge. The Accurate Mold's 43-214A is designed after the 098 but adds a bit more lead on the o'give allowing a smooth transition.

Also note that the pre-1884 bullet is being pushed out from oxidation/expansion of the bottom of the bullet. The cartridge to the right has a 43-215C bullet, also an 098 mod but with a crimp groove. The case on the far right  previously used a LFCD, evident by the permanent "ring" forged into the case mouth.

 

Img_3171a_zpsmougp7mv.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack

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Never used anything but RCBS regular dies in .44-40.  The sizer will reduce the case neck below where the base of most 200-215gr bullets will come when seated to 1.582" O.A.L., or to the crimp groove.  This gives the case a slight dimple or "wasp waist", which is necessary if you are shooting the #42798 bullet, which is meant to crimp over the front driving band.  No, when the pressure blows it out on firing, it shouldn't wear the case. I've been reloading the same Winchester brass for at least 20 times over the years.   I shoot .429-.430" diameter bullets, but the expander plug that comes with the die set is meant for .427-.428".  The solution is to order a separate expander plug (which fits in the .44-40 die body) for .44 Magnum.  I seat and crimp at the same time with the seating die, just adjusting it so the roll crimp is visible, but not so excessive to bulge the case away from the side of the bullet.

Best of luck, and Happy Holidays!

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Never used anything but RCBS regular dies in .44-40.  The sizer will reduce the case neck below where the base of most 200-215gr bullets will come when seated to 1.582" O.A.L., or to the crimp groove.  This gives the case a slight dimple or "wasp waist", which is necessary if you are shooting the #42798 bullet, which is meant to crimp over the front driving band.  No, when the pressure blows it out on firing, it shouldn't wear the case. I've been reloading the same Winchester brass for at least 20 times over the years.   I shoot .429-.430" diameter bullets, but the expander plug that comes with the die set is meant for .427-.428".  The solution is to order a separate expander plug (which fits in the .44-40 die body) for .44 Magnum.  I seat and crimp at the same time with the seating die, just adjusting it so the roll crimp is visible, but not so excessive to bulge the case away from the side of the bullet.

Best of luck, and Happy Holidays!

Maybe that "wasp waist" comes from dies that are expecting .427 bullets. The Cowboy set doesn't do that.

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Maybe that "wasp waist" comes from dies that are expecting .427 bullets. The Cowboy set doesn't do that.

Yep! But it isn't as severe as the crimp that the factory sometimes put in the cases to keep the bullet from backing into the case when loaded with smokeless.  You can see the indentation, but it isn't severe, and does the job well.  Never have had a problem with excessive case wear. 

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Case canular is not needed at the base of the bullet nor is "over resizing" the cases when properly sized and loaded with lead bullets but is nearly a must when using Winchester .425 JSP bullets. The .425 JSP bullets are a smaller diameter than most modern dies allow for when we typically used larger diameter bullets....thus the difference in the standard RCBS dies and special "Cowboy" dies. Roll crimping the 427098 over the forward driving band is to prevent inertial dislodgemen but is not necessary if properly crimped into soft lead.


The photos below shows the different crimp methods and shape of the crimps. Most of the "U" shaped crimps are for canulared bullets like the Winchester JSP and Swaged bullet with a canulared crimp groove.  Lead bullets with a roll crimp use a....well.....roll crimp. Pending recoil and maybe other issues, some cartridges use an exaggerated "stronger" roll crimp like the 357 and 44 magnums to keep the bullet from inertial dislodgement.

Crimps.jpg

 

Notice the different crimp options with the same die for two different crimp methods as the Lyman 310 hand toll offers. Below is a "U" crimp example in a rollcrimp groove. The clean "curved" profile crimp is evident and used on the bullets with canular such as the Winchester JSP and Swaged bullets with an added canular.

Crimps2.jpg


There are many ways to skin a cat but sometimes the correct tools work better.

 

 

66171243_337792637169845_2423358013126475776_n.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack

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If you are interested in seating depths...if using the lead bullet in the case to the left, the only neck retention is on the forward driving band if your theory is to crimp above the forward driving band on the 427098 bullets. The neck on the case to the right has been extended from .33" to .40" for proper neck retention on deep seated 427098 bullets. This is not needed if crimped just below the top of the forward driving band and properly crimped with the Redding profile crimp into the soft lead. 

Case necks need to be sized .03" longer than bullet seating depth to give needed base support in addition to the crimp. This is consistent with industry practice in loading lead bullet ammunition in other calibers, such as the .38 Special ~John Kort

 

 

25396259_836718776508707_4538262100722752227_n.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack

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Case canular is not needed at the base of the bullet nor is "over resizing" the cases when properly sized and loaded with lead bullets but is nearly a must when using Winchester .425 JSP bullets. The .425 JSP bullets are a smaller diameter than most modern dies allow for when we typically used larger diameter bullets....thus the difference in the standard RCBS dies and special "Cowboy" dies. Roll crimping the 427098 over the forward driving band is to prevent inertial dislodgemen but is not necessary if properly crimped into soft lead.


The photos below shows the different crimp methods and shape of the crimps. Most of the "U" shaped crimps are for canulared bullets like the Winchester JSP and Swaged bullet with a canulared crimp groove.  Lead bullets with a roll crimp use a....well.....roll crimp. Pending recoil and maybe other issues, some cartridges use an exaggerated "stronger" roll crimp like the 357 and 44 magnums to keep the bullet from inertial dislodgement.

Crimps.jpg

 

Notice the different crimp look with the same die for two different crimp methods. Below is a "U" crimp and in my previous post, you can see a clean "curved" profile crimp. One bullet with a groove, and one without.

Crimps2.jpg


There are many ways to skin a cat but sometimes the correct tools work better.

 

 

66171243_337792637169845_2423358013126475776_n.jpg

Some of those crimps look like the bullet is simply seated too deeply for the case trim length. When the bullet needs to be set back in order to chamber, I think one can simply trim cases to where a proper roll crimp is possible.

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Roscoe, good point.

Not knowing exactly which cartridge you are referring to, in your reply.....

In the top photo, left to right, #2 and #4, the crimp rolls in, up and then back out giving the appearance the case is longer. This is why the "U" crimp is not good for a rollcrimp groove or a bullet with no crimp groove at all, but is good for the canular groove which it is basically designed for.

In the bottom photo left to right,

#1 is roll crimped above the driving band. #2 is a factory Magtech cartridge. #3 is a factory Buffalo Bore cartridge and #7 is a factory Winchester cartridge. The darker swaged bullets are my handloads. The swaged bullets have a canular groove and is simply shown with different crimp methods to show the case mouth position results....but does offer the AOL and driving band issue for older tighter bores in many pre-1900 rifles. Simply trimming and/or seating deaper can cause an increase in chamber pressures......again, can be an issue in older firearms.

Triming the case mouth, or setting the die for proper AOL is always something to check. Some dies offer a "two-step" crimp like the Lyman 310 hand-tool. First a roll-crimp, then if "pushed" further, a LFCD type "flat" crimp.

Edited by Savvy Jack

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Here are some early Winchester 44-40 high velocity bullets and regular JSP bullets that show different design canular crimp groves.

pagecover.png

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This is the best I can explain the Redding Profile Crimp in comparison to other crimps. In my opinion the Redding crimp works in two parts working together;... 

 

1. For lead bullets without a crimp grove, the first part "roll" crimp works best. The roll is so shallow it is more like an exaggerated taper crimp that forms to the O'give curvature (Bullet Profile), rolling enough to squeeze into the soft lead. 
2. The "second part" is evident when crimping the small diameter (.4255) Winchester and (.426) Remington JSP bullets. Just like any other die, the amount of the crimp needed is be adjusted by screwing the die in further. The number of turns the die is turned in from the .428" 43-214A crimp setting to the .4255" Winchester JSP "U" crimp setting is only 5/8 of a turn.

In the photo below the difference in the "two part" crimp should be evident. First is the roll crimp into the start of the crimp grove. This crimp is nice and snug (in addition to the smaller resizing die size case neck) on the curve of the canular's bottom edge. This first part, the roll crimp, prevents the inertial dislodgement from recoil when used in revolvers. The second crimp (really only one crimp step) is a "U" shape that forms to the inside of the curved canular groove. This "U" shaped formed crimp prevents the bullet from telescoping into the magtube of a rifle due to the pressure from the mag tube spring.

The 44-40 Redding Profile Die does not work well with any 44 caliber lead or jacketed bullet that does not have an original 44-40 O'give profile. When using the popular 200gr Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullet, this die may hit the exposed forward driving band. 

When the Profile Die is used properly, a canular in the case below the bullet's base is not needed. ALWAYS test a batch of your handloads before shooting. This can be a learning process but I promise you will like it once you get the hang of it.

I hope this helps.

EDITED: The one thing I failed to add was to make sure you resize your cases to the smallest size available and expand to the smallest size available when using the .4255/.426 JSP bullets. The RCBS Cowboy dies do not resize or expand to the smallest size needed to give good neck retention with the smaller diameter bullets.

 

78739886_699726420559027_7909772541529423872_n.jpg

77257978_482302929079677_1202205459759497216_n.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack

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Normally I load and use the Lee Factory Crimp die which works well with a full case of BP. But when I load smokeless that is another story and I end up with collapsing bullets. I cannot get the seating crimping die to do both I have tried. Is there another crimp die or am open to other suggestions.

 

Thanks

Sgt Hochbauer

Bingo...I had exactly the same problem, I'm waiting on a Redding 44-40 profile crimp die that will hopefully fix the problem..I to only used BP but when loading some for a New Zealand pard with smokeless..let's just say I was embarassed  !!

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+2 on the Redding Profile crimp die.  I was having the same issue whenever I shot smokeless this fixed it.

+3 on the Redding Profile Crimp Die.  Solved the chambering problems with my 44-40 Lightning.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

Edited by Fingers McGee

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The various causes asked and answered but the length and tech of the replies might be overdoing it.

Since the smokeless powder isn't supporting the bullet during seating and crimping, adjust your neck sizing/powder drop to less expansion for a slightly tighter fit. So: Bullet won't stay put long enough to crimp= too loose. Deformation of case= too tight. 

Hope this helps, 44-40 is my favorite.

Joe west

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I found out back in the late 1970's that RCBS had 2 different .44-40 die sets cataloged for the .44-40. One for Lead bullets and one for Jacketed. 

I bought the one for Lead as I was loading for an original SAA & 1892 in .44WCF using the Lyman #42798 bullet. 

My Dad had given me a set of early 1960's Lyman .44-40 Die's. 

The old Lyman dies worked better as they sized the cases down farther the the RCBS.  

 

Even using the Lyman sizer and RCBS expander the rounds had to be gently pushed that last 1/8" into the old Colt's Chambers. Using the Lyman M-die which was stamped .427 I had no problem chambering rounds in anything. 

I always crimped over the ogive of the #42798 bullet, but the Colt still needed .427dia bullets. The Win (1938) 1892 shot better with .428dia bullets.  As did my 2 3rd Gen Colts in the .44Spl Cartridge.

 

I bought a Uberti 1873 in 1988 for Cowboy Shooting. 

Happened to find a Commercial Caster in 1989 who sold the .428Dia Magma bullet in 225gr. So I started shooting it in my .44-40 Long guns. 

 

Still crimp the same depth and over the ogive. The old Lyman dies leave a bit of a wasp-waisted cartridge after seating and crimping. Leads to case body splits after 8-10 loadings. But I have 3,000 REM & WIN cases. Plus 20+boxes of PMC, starline, TEN-X and others.  The cases produced by starline with their headstamp and for others don't seem to last as long as REM & WIN.  Not annealed I guess.

 

I still load most .44WCF using the old Lyman dies on a single stage.   For some reason they just won't on a progressive.  

 

I use the old #42798, the RCBS #44-200-FN, #44-200-CM and the Accurate #43-210G. All loaded for Rifle these days. 

The #43-210G seems to work well with Hornady .44-40 dies in My Hornady L-N-L Progressive. Won't chamber in My old Colt, but I can single stage enough rounds to shoot it.

 

Can't shoot Cowboy anymore, but it seems Everybody is still having Fun.

 

Looks like there is still plenty of reason to curse the .44WCF as My Dad did 60yrs ago.

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Looks like there is still plenty of reason to curse the .44WCF as My Dad did 60yrs ago.

 

YES yes and YES!

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The various causes asked and answered but the length and tech of the replies might be overdoing it.

Since the smokeless powder isn't supporting the bullet during seating and crimping, adjust your neck sizing/powder drop to less expansion for a slightly tighter fit. So: Bullet won't stay put long enough to crimp= too loose. Deformation of case= too tight. 

Hope this helps, 44-40 is my favorite.

Joe west

 

 

Exactly but some newer handloaders may not know the details. One just can't adjust a resize/expand without know what the die's/plug's measurements are.

All I can do is gave an example; There are so many variables when loading for the 44-40, one sentence explanations are just not good enough sometimes.

New Starline Brass/Winchester .4255 JSP bullets (anything larger will be more snug)....but then caution to not under expand and crumple cases when trying to force a large diameter bullet into a too small of an expanded/bellowed case mouth.

Step 1. Resize Dies

Lee-44-40-B7 resizes a new Starline case neck O.D. to .4335". The smallest I know readily available.
RCBS "Cowboy" Die resizes a new Starline case neck O.D. to .4355 for a difference in a .0020" difference larger allowing for bullet slippage. The Lee is not much smaller but it helps in addition to other steps that add up to good neck retention.

Step 2. Expanding Dies

Using the smallest expander plug I had, the Lyman "M" die #7342102, the plug measured .4255 with the bellow step out to .4275. This gives nice snug neck retention.

 

When the bullet is seated in the .4255 O.D. expanded neck, the neck bulges out to an O.D. of .4395" giving .014" for neck retention....not much. Other dies leave .0000" like the RCBS Cowboy Die for this application.

Step 3. Crimp Die
Handloaders choice on what works for them, but is the reason for the OP's post....suggestions.

The third and final aid is a tight crimp to match the type crimp grove on the bullet. The OP is using a lead bullet with no crimp groves, this crimping on the forward most part of the forward driving band is a must. Whether on or just over the lip is the handloaders choice. My examples are simply examples.

LFCD should work if the other steps are taken into consideration. Simply trying to keep the bullet from moving in, out or even twisting with only a crimp is not gonna work. The LFCD can be hard on the brass, indenting and leaving a permanent "ring" around the case mouth. Works well with soft lead as it leaves a somewhat "square" crimp.

 

Roll Crimp step is not a good crimp for lead bullets without a crimp grove or when using a 427098, rolling in front of the driving band. There is nothing there but the neck retention to hold the bullet when using low volume smokeless powder. That part we already know.

Solution

For lead bullets of any size (for the 44-40 of course), prefered softer lead....AND original Winchester/Remington JSP bullets, the Redding Profile Crimp is a sure thing.

1. Resize case necks as small as possible (duh within reason)

2. Expand as little as possible but enough not to cause case crumpling

3. Use a Redding Profile Crimp for 44-40 profile bullets.

There are other methods, more than one way to skin a cat, but one and two are a must along with a crimp that works for the application as I have already posted. One crimp may look like any other but it's the SIZE that counts.

One die, two crimps for soft lead bullets without a crimp grove and (but not limited to) small diameter bullets.

Left - .428"

Right - .4255"



 

78926364_567099084077593_2180765710353956864_n.jpg

 

Note: Left .428" bullet is loaded with an RCBS Cowboy deprime die, expanded with a Lee powderthrough die, Bullet seated only with an RCBS Cowboy die then crimped with the Redding profile die.

Right: .4255" bullet is loaded with a Lee deprime die, expanded with a Lyman "M" die, Bullet seated only with an RCBS Cowboy die then crimped with the Redding profile die.

Edited by Savvy Jack

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A tad off topic since the following bullet has a crimp grove.

The one and only issue with the Redding profile die is the use of the common 200gr "Laser Cast" bullets by Oregon Trail. Technically they are cast from a Magma Manufacturing commercial mold.

 

"44-40"
44-40-200 RNF BB "Cowboy" (Bevel Base), cast .429-.430 and sized to .427

44-40-200 RNF FB "Cowboy" (Flat Base), cast .429-.430 and sized to .427

 

"44 Cal."

44-200

44-200 RNFP BB  (Bevel Base), cast .432-.433 and sized to .430


These bullets can be sized up to .431 and should not be used with the 44-40 Redding profile die. The bullet has a roll crimp grove and a roll crimp works fine. If one tries to use a 44-40 Profile die, this could be the results.......

The Redding is designed for .427" diameter bullets with a curved O'give from the case mouth to the meplat and if used with the larger diameter bullets, it will damage bullet right at the exposed forward driving band. If continued force is applied, it could get ugly. Any bullet with this exposed flat driving band is not a true 44-40 profile bullet. However, if the bullet is a .427" diameter or small bullet, it could work but go slow and see what happens. I prefer using a roll crimp with bullets that have a roll crimp grove but thought I would add this in here just in case.

67746561_1232303353616912_6175590014420779008_n.jpg

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