Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 In a recently locked thread, the question was asked, what makes a chamber that has been cut to a dimension that doesn’t fit the ammunition used illegal? Aside from being dangerous, it is illegal because of this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Some just don't think the rules apply to them. Some have no clue of what is 'rite' and safe. This was shown to be the case, to the entire forum by that one poster, in the thread........ OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Well slippery fingers it looks like they got you dead to "rites" on the "eeeleegull" chambering. For the record that was pretty silly, but even the most experienced of us, despite our touted qualifications by time in office, have done stupid things now and again. Watch out now they're about to gang up on you and hold your wire conduct against you in real life...well pseudo dress up real life. They might not speak to you at a shoot and even term you a bad cowboy regardless of your abilities to ride, rope, or herd cattle. I can see the pitchforks and torches in the distance and hear the pounding of the native drums growing closer...maybe you can find a double standard to apply and escape in the ensuing confusion...good luck and may the odds be ever in your favor...try not to get...offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said: Well slippery fingers it looks like they got you dead to "rites" on the "eeeleegull" chambering. For the record that was pretty silly, but even the most experienced of us, despite our touted qualifications by time in office, have done stupid things now and again. Watch out now they're about to gang up on you and hold your wire conduct against you in real life...well pseudo dress up real life. They might not speak to you at a shoot and even term you a bad cowboy regardless of your abilities to ride, rope, or herd cattle. I can see the pitchforks and torches in the distance and hear the pounding of the native drums growing closer...maybe you can find a double standard to apply and escape in the ensuing confusion...good luck and may the odds be ever in your favor...try not to get...offended. Carolina Gunslinger, I know most of what you're saying is tongue and cheek, but personally I think it was a good thing to put a stop to that post for safety reasons alone. We don't need folks throwing whatever ammo they happen to have into their guns. There's nothing to be offended by it was a question asked and answered. However the poster did not seem to get the concerns of shooting unsupported cartridges, that's basically what he was going after. There was a time I was considering 44 Russian in 44-40, just as someone pointed out on that post, guess what? It works, but the rule is the rule and I haven't proceeded past a few trail rounds and I will not go further with it. I didn't see it as ganging up on the guy, just stopping a bad idea before others got the same idea. As someone who runs the timer a lot I appreciate it being stopped, because it's the RO and the shooter who are most likely to suffer if something goes wrong. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Tully Mars said: Carolina Gunslinger, I know most of what you're saying is tongue and cheek, but personally I think it was a good thing to put a stop to that post for safety reasons alone. We don't need folks throwing whatever ammo they happen to have into their guns. There's nothing to be offended by it was a question asked and answered. However the poster did not seem to get the concerns of shooting unsupported cartridges, that's basically what he was going after. There was a time I was considering 44 Russian in 44-40, just as someone pointed out on that post, guess what? It works, but the rule is the rule and I haven't proceeded past a few trail rounds and I will not go further with it. I didn't see it as ganging up on the guy, just stopping a bad idea before others got the same idea. As someone who runs the timer a lot I appreciate it being stopped, because it's the RO and the shooter who are most likely to suffer if something goes wrong. Tully Tully, I find what the guy did to be unsafe and unfortunate in that the gun was effectively ruined. I understand that the toggle actions all but fire from an open bolt and multiple faces/heads are at stake. As to the other comments, I'm just highlighting the lovable tendency of the wire to have folks run to the aid of their friends and help bully people into the cowboy way. If you're lucky enough to be in the in crowd you're privy to a double standard wherein you can enjoy invulnerability while you stoop to a new low in berating others. They don't take kindly when someone turns their Dien Bien Phu into a Rourke's Drift. Had it been done differently, without the self righteous pile on, there might have been a chance a reaching him and preserving the dignity of all involved. It's okay, we all learned something from the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Think of a Case Rupture kind of like this ,,,, You can take a hammer in hand a push against a window with quite a bit of force with-out breaking it ,,,,, But swing that hammer with half the force against the Window and the glass will shatter .... This is not a really good way of explaining it ,,,, but it does kind of get the idea across I hope ... A cartridge case is a Seal in the breach of a firearm that is meant to expand a very SMALL amount to make complete contact with the steel of the chamber and be fully supported by that Steel ,,, to stop gasses (pressure)from getting a Running start ...there-by directing those same gasses toward pushing against the base of the bullet to cause it to be moved down the bore ... I did Not Intend, nor do I feel I attacked said Cowboy,, My posts were in hopes of stopping the promotion of an unsafe practice and saving someone from harm ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 46 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said: Think of a Case Rupture kind of like this ,,,, You can take a hammer in hand a push against a window with quite a bit of force with-out breaking it ,,,,, But swing that hammer with half the force against the Window and the glass will shatter .... This is not a really good way of explaining it ,,,, but it does kind of get the idea across I hope ... A cartridge case is a Seal in the breach of a firearm that is meant to expand a very SMALL amount to make complete contact with the steel of the chamber and be fully supported by that Steel ,,, to stop gasses (pressure)from getting a Running start ...there-by directing those same gasses toward pushing against the base of the bullet to cause it to be moved down the bore ... I did Not Intend, nor do I feel I attacked said Cowboy,, My posts were in hopes of stopping the promotion of an unsafe practice and saving someone from harm ... Jabez Cowboy Jabez, Its hard not to share education and experience when we think it might help others, whether it be in the performance of our guns, difficulties in certain mods, AND...especially safety issues and facts. I appreciate your post on various topics because they always seem to be 'neutral' towards personalities, yet helpful based solely on the topic being discussed. Here's hoping your computer never runs out of black ink..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Ya know folks, there was some piling on of the poor guy like a junkyard dog on a three-legged cat but he did create some of the feedback by his attitude. What really disturbs me is that any reputable gunsmith would suggest the modification that was done when he had the new barrel to do the job right. Even worse is that the gunsmith convinced him it was a safe and effective mod. I think at this point he deserves a break because he is actively hunting for the correct ammunition for his firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 28 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said: Ya know folks, there was some piling on of the poor guy like a junkyard dog on a three-legged cat but he did create some of the feedback by his attitude. What really disturbs me is that any reputable gunsmith would suggest the modification that was done when he had the new barrel to do the job right. Even worse is that the gunsmith convinced him it was a safe and effective mod. I think at this point he deserves a break because he is actively hunting for the correct ammunition for his firearms. We only have that poster's word that it was a 'gunsmith' who gave the go-ahead. The poster's 'tude after he ask'd if 'OK' and was told no. Tells all- OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said: Tully, I find what the guy did to be unsafe and unfortunate in that the gun was effectively ruined. I understand that the toggle actions all but fire from an open bolt and multiple faces/heads are at stake. As to the other comments, I'm just highlighting the lovable tendency of the wire to have folks run to the aid of their friends and help bully people into the cowboy way. If you're lucky enough to be in the in crowd you're privy to a double standard wherein you can enjoy invulnerability while you stoop to a new low in berating others. They don't take kindly when someone turns their Dien Bien Phu into a Rourke's Drift. Had it been done differently, without the self righteous pile on, there might have been a chance a reaching him and preserving the dignity of all involved. It's okay, we all learned something from the experience. Carolina Gunslinger, I took the time to reread the tread. Not really sure I see bullying and berating by others, however I do see how the post goes downhill. It appears to me everyone involved had a hand in that, I see it as frustrations being expressed by all evolved and at times not expressed as well as they should be. That said I read the WIRE until I have what I need, then move on, maybe I'm not on it enough to be aware of the "in crowd". Either way, "precisely made to fit the firing chamber" is the key wording in the rule that should have put and end to the discussion. Nimble Fingers if your reading this I hope this hasn't soured you on cowboy shooting. I also believe that you've had no issues with the chambering of your 92', however that doesn't make it safe and I would be leery of it. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 On 2/9/2019 at 9:15 AM, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said: I think at this point he deserves a break because he is actively hunting for the correct ammunition for his firearms. After consideration, I've reconsidered my agreement on this subject. Nothing personal Jailhouse Jim. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I would say that technically the firing 38 special out of a 357 is illegal. 38 special does not precisely fit a 357 chamber since it is a bit short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 1 minute ago, LostVaquero said: I would say that technically the firing 38 special out of a 357 is illegal. 38 special does not precisely fit a 357 chamber since it is a bit short. It's a supported case, I believe that's meant by "precisely". Tully, whose done with this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, LostVaquero said: I would say that technically the firing 38 special out of a 357 is illegal. 38 special does not precisely fit a 357 chamber since it is a bit short. And the beat goes on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, LostVaquero said: I would say that technically the firing 38 special out of a 357 is illegal. 38 special does not precisely fit a 357 chamber since it is a bit short. There is certainly a difference between shooting shorter ammo in an otherwise correct chamber and shooting very undersized ammo in an oversized chamber. (Although one could question the way .45 LC ammo fit the way the chambers have traditionally been cut.) As far as shooting short cartridges in a longer chamber, that might disqualify military .45 Revolver Ball (aka .45 Schofield) being shot in Colt's Single Action Army revolvers back in the 1880's! Talking about relatively straight-sided or barely tapered rimmed cartridges, NOT heavily bottlenecked, rimless rounds! As far as whether a gun modified as the gentleman proposed/has done is "SASS-legal", that really isn't the question: Whether it safe or not, presenting a hazard to the shooter and/or bystanders, is the point! When someone won't listen to the collective experience and knowledge of a number of others, then it is time to cut our losses, saddle up and ride out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 33 minutes ago, LostVaquero said: I would say that technically the firing 38 special out of a 357 is illegal. 38 special does not precisely fit a 357 chamber since it is a bit short. Then those who shoot 44 Special out of a .44 mag chamber is illegal. Then there's the folks that shoot .45 CS out of a .45 Colt chamber....... The cases are the same, except for OAL. That is not the 'case'(pun intended)in the other post. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Winter is dragging on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 The safety of shooting the incorrect ammo out of the altered chamber was based on the assumption of shooting low pressure cowboy ammo. But what happens with a double charge? A double charge isn't good in any case and in an altered chamber would be even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Wade Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Kinda think this horse has been beat to death. Nothing to do but bury it. GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 .32 H&R mag cases in an 1895 Nagant... 56-50's made from 8mm Lebel cases... 44 Evans cases from .38-40... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I doubt the CASS Handbook intends to prohibit shooting shorter case cartridges with SAMMI spec straight wall cartridges with exactly the same rim, & case diameters. I.E. A a firearm marked 327* Federal can be loaded with 32H&R & 32S&W. A 357M can be loaded with 38SP. A 45C can be loaded with 45 S&W Schofield. You can also assume the wildcat 45 Cowboy Special is approved for loading in a firearm marked 45 Colt. *I assume that a 327 federal firearm is legal; since, the cartridge while it isn't listed in handbook; because. Ruger & Henry Repeating Arms mfg. 327 Federal firearms & they indicate 32H&R is safe to shoot. You couldn't shoot factory 327 Federal cartridges; because, the muzzle velocity exceeds CASS limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 3 hours ago, LostVaquero said: I would say that technically the firing 38 special out of a 357 is illegal. 38 special does not precisely fit a 357 chamber since it is a bit short. Some guns do list them as 38 special/ 357 magnum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Since 1935 when Elmer Kieth helped Phil Sharpe develop the 357 Magnum and later, the 44 Magnum, shooting the special versions of those cartridges has been deemed perfectly safe, by not only firearms manufacturers and ammo manufacturers but also SAAMI. To shoot cartridges that do not fit within those specifications is absurdly unsafe, not just for the shooter but likely more so for bystanders. To imply, not “apply” as some morons say, otherwise is ludicrous! To say that “you’re going to be buried with or leave it to someone” is just as ludicrous. As for this Eagle Scout junior member’s lack of respect, respect must be earned. When someone shows a total disregard for other’s safety, a blatant disregard for federal law (whether I agree with said law) and a disregard for the rules of this game, they really do not deserve respect. Boggus Deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Oh I absolutely agree if SAMMI says alright nommproblem, more I was pointing out wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 My Open-top Uberti's are Marked .44 Rus. .44 Colt And .44 Spl. and are safe and SAMMI approved for all three listed Cartridges ... Any .44 Mag. is also SAMMI approved for the above 3 listed Cartridges... SAMMI also approves the use of .38 spl. in .357 Mag. guns ... Etc........ Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 11 hours ago, LostVaquero said: Oh I absolutely agree if SAMMI says alright nommproblem, more I was pointing out wording. As a shooter and presumably a reloader you understood your response regarding 357/38 met SAMMI specs and didn't apply to this topic. You were just stirring the pot, at least that's how I saw it. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 9 hours ago, Tully Mars said: As a shooter and presumably a reloader you understood your response regarding 357/38 met SAMMI specs and didn't apply to this topic. You were just stirring the pot, at least that's how I saw it. Tully Tully, when I saw the word "precisely" in the phrasing of the rule, .38's in a .357 came to my mind as well, even though that's not the intent. A very strict reading of the rule could enforce that very common scenario. Rules (and laws) are very hard to write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 36 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said: Tully, when I saw the word "precisely" in the phrasing of the rule, .38's in a .357 came to my mind as well, even though that's not the intent. A very strict reading of the rule could enforce that very common scenario. Rules (and laws) are very hard to write. Hey Doc, This post was a follow up to a locked post and that would have been an excellent response had the post not been about an unsupported case due to reaming a chamber to shoot both 44-40 & 44 special. Look at the responses after the 357/38 comment was made, it only stirred the pot and confused the original intention of the post. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Tully, I figured there was more to it than what was on the surface. I didn't read that other post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 First day of Spring is March 20th. ONLY 38 DAYS thank the good LORD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I just need to know.... If I wuz ta shoot a 38 Short Colt cartridge in a pistol designated .357 Mag..... Will I Go to He!! ???? Dang this weather............... I wanna go Shoot!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I some jurisdictions, repeatedly assaulting a dead Equine is considered abuse of a corpse and is a Felony. Or is it Fellony, or maybe Ballony. Kinda like ordering a non-fat, skim mild, decaf latte at Starbucks ..... Why Bother?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said: I just need to know.... If I wuz ta shoot a 38 Short Colt cartridge in a pistol designated .357 Mag..... Will I Go to He!! ???? Dang this weather............... I wanna go Shoot!!!! Is the pistol a Ruger or JP Sauer? Single or Double Action? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 4 hours ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said: I just need to know.... If I wuz ta shoot a 38 Short Colt cartridge in a pistol designated .357 Mag..... Will I Go to He!! ???? Dang this weather............... I wanna go Shoot!!!! YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 On 2/9/2019 at 1:18 PM, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: .32 H&R mag cases in an 1895 Nagant... 56-50's made from 8mm Lebel cases... 44 Evans cases from .38-40... .44 Evans Short or .44 Evans Long? IIRC, these are NOT interchangeable! You really need .303 Savage brass for the Short (I think! ). Got a bunch of that laying around loose? Come on, horse! Get up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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