Does a tie matter?

[Kirk James]

Cannot figure out how to make a poll. 

I am so appreciative SASS changed to total time.  I understand that there is very little chance we are going to have to worry about this.  Someone is going to make a decision and this poll could provide information to how it would be done.   To break ties in overall and/or categories,  place a number next to the most important factor you consider fair to break a tie or have two champions.  No.   1 gets the highest consideration.

_____A tie in the overall championship should remain a tie.  Two champions. 

_____All ties should remain tie.  (Ex. Two fourth places and a sixth)

_____Lowest  no. of Rank pts. 

_____Are there any misses? 

_____No of stages won head to head.

_____Shooters stage with the greatest no of rank pts . takes the lower place.

_____Let each match director decide the procedure for a tie. 

_____Pick a stage at the beginning of the match.  Ex.  12^th stage. 

_____Other________________________________________

Can someone copy and paste this so everyone can place a no. using  1 as the best  way to break a tie and 9 or 10, using othe,r as their last preferences. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

A tie is a tie.

I hate gimmicks and arbitrary scoring (the whole reason we have applauded the death of rank points); and as a match director, I will NEVER allow the element of chance to reenter the equation.

Changing a shooters ranking from whatever position they earned by time by assigning a scoring value to some previously no value variable is introducing arbitrary back into the score.

If I have to procure and provide an additional buckle or trophy to ensure both shooters receive their deserved ranking and accolade; then so be it.

 

I have less heartburn with the idea of co-champions than I do with the idea of a champion being crowned by rock, paper, scissors.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

18 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A tie is a tie.

I hate gimmicks and arbitrary scoring (the whole reason we have applauded the death of rank points); and as a match director, I will NEVER allow the element of chance to reenter the equation.

Changing a shooters ranking from whatever position they earned by time by assigning a scoring value to some previously no value variable is introducing arbitrary back into the score.

If I have to procure and provide an additional buckle or trophy to ensure both shooters receive their deserved ranking and accolade; then so be it.

 

I have less heartburn with the idea of co-champions than I do with the idea of a champion being crowned by rock, paper, scissors.

I agree, but how do you decide between a tie for 3rd with 5 awards avail, the same way?

[Blackey Cole]

Kirtland I think there needs to be a clear champion of a state and above match. That said I woul go in the following order misses the one with the fewest misses wins, if they have the same then look at stages won next, after that I think a point system should be used based on rank points with in category for category champions overall it's their points based on stage positions for all since they are competing against everyone for overall champion if they are still tied after all that they need to shoot off head to head then the winner wins.

 

[Cat Brules]

It's hard to follow what you're trying to do, but I  suggest you scale preferences as 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5, with 1 being high preference and 5 being lowest preference. 

 

I suggest most First Place ties be settled with a short shooting competition or remain as ties.  I suggest lower place ties remain as ties. (1)

 

If you don't like the shooting competition idea to settle ties, I again suggest letting the ties remain ties.  (1)

 

Whatever is decided, I believe rank points shouldn't be used to settle any ties or other issues.

 

Number of misses should not be a deciding factor.

 

Best score on a pre-picked stage should not be used to settle a tie, either.

 

Keep the Match Director out of the tie breaking business

 

I have an idea for a short tie-breaker shooting competition if you are interested.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zack McGee, SASS #46908]

A tie in the overall championship should remain a tie.  Two champions. 

 

Why? Because they equally earned it.

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

Least # of misses, then least # of procedurals. Accuracy needs to count somewhere, or why do we care about clean shoots?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A tie is a tie.

I hate gimmicks and arbitrary scoring (the whole reason we have applauded the death of rank points); and as a match director, I will NEVER allow the element of chance to reenter the equation.

Changing a shooters ranking from whatever position they earned by time by assigning a scoring value to some previously no value variable is introducing arbitrary back into the score.

If I have to procure and provide an additional buckle or trophy to ensure both shooters receive their deserved ranking and accolade; then so be it.

 

I have less heartburn with the idea of co-champions than I do with the idea of a champion being crowned by rock, paper, scissors.

 

This is also my thoughts.

 

..........Widder

 

[Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854]

I have to agree with Creeker and Widder.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

A BIG PLUS ONE to Creeker and Widder.  One must also consider the probability of a tie.  Slim and None.  Slim left town a week ago.

 

Give it a rest.

[Shooting Bull]

I'd agree with Creeker and Widder but....well....it's a Creeker and Widder. I could stomach agreeing with one of them but, agreeing with BOTH of them? Nope, can't do it. 

[Hoss]

Part of me says a tie is a tie, but this is a competition that deserves a winner. Since the misses and procedurals are already factored into the time, I would not count them again.

 

if a shoot-off is not practical, I would have the MD, ahead of the match, select a stage that would be used to break ties. it would not be announced which stage it was ahead of time. Fastest time on that stage wins.

 

2nd place and lower would just remain a tie. .  

[Widder, SASS #59054]

13 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Part of me says a tie is a tie, but this is a competition that deserves a winner. Since the misses and procedurals are already factored into the time, I would not count them again.

 

if a shoot-off is not practical, I would have the MD, ahead of the match, select a stage that would be used to break ties. it would not be announced which stage it was ahead of time. Fastest time on that stage wins.

 

2nd place and lower would just remain a tie. .  

 

Howdy Hoss,

 

What if shooter X gets to shoot the designated stage on Friday at Sunny and 85 degrees.   Shooter Z, who tied with shooter X, has to shoot that same designated stage on Saturday during a rain with wet guns and wet ground and grass?

 

How can using a particular stage like that be an equatable method to determine a tie breaker?

 

When 2 shooters go neck and neck over 10 or 12 stages and end up with the exact time, down to ONE hundredth of a second, ya just gotta accept that BOTH of them are winners at that particular time in history.

 

Well, that's just my .02  

I doubt I will ever have to worry about tying anyone for a championship position.

 

..........Widder

 

[Hoss]

16 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy Hoss,

 

What if shooter X gets to shoot the designated stage on Friday at Sunny and 85 degrees.   Shooter Z, who tied with shooter X, has to shoot that same designated stage on Saturday during a rain with wet guns and wet ground and grass?

 

How can using a particular stage like that be an equatable method to determine a tie breaker?

 

When 2 shooters go neck and neck over 10 or 12 stages and end up with the exact time, down to ONE hundredth of a second, ya just gotta accept that BOTH of them are winners at that particular time in history.

 

Well, that's just my .02  

I doubt I will ever have to worry about tying anyone for a championship position.

 

..........Widder

 

I could live with co-champions. But, it is a competition, and a competition should have a winner. My first choice would be a head to head shoot-off. I that is not possible/practical, then a pre-designated stage that nobody knows except MD seems to me to be the fairest way. Designating the stage before the match means nobody know which stage to "bear down on". no favoritism etc. As far as different weather conditions, that's beyond anybody's control. (come shoot in S Texas in the summer, guaranteed to be hot and dry!) If you have to break the tie, then some sort of chance is going to enter in.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

Although it's never going to happen, the BEST way to determine a winner would be to REQUIRE that all the targets get hit. Instead of a penalty being assigned, shooter must reload and hit the target(s) that were missed. If two shooters then tie, misses do not become a factor.

For example:

 

Shooter No. 1:

1. 20.1
2. 19.8
3. 23.5
4. 21.5
5. 26.2 (1 reload and reshoot time)
6. 22.4

     Total Time: 133.5 (No misses)

 

Shooter No. 2:

1. 21.2
2. 22.1
3. 24.6
4. 23.0
5. 22.3
6. 20.3

     Total Time: 133.5 (No misses)

 

Considering the above, if the average shooter, that shoots fast enough to get into a tie, should be able to reload and hit the missed target within the 5 sec assessed penalty period, then two shooters who tie, in which one shooter had misses, would equate to the remedy above.

Shooter No. 1:

1. 20.1
2. 19.8
3. 23.5
4. 21.5
5. 26.2 (1 miss - includes 5 sec penalty)
6. 22.4

     Total Time: 133.5 (1 miss)

 

Shooter No. 2:

1. 21.2
2. 22.1
3. 24.6
4. 23.0
5. 22.3
6. 20.3

     Total Time: 133.5 (No misses)

 

Just something to consider when determining whether misses should count or not in breaking a tie.

[Diamond S Doug]

I think that in a total time match they both earned the times they received.  They have already been penalized for misses and procedurals, no need to penalize them further.  Since the they tied the only fair way to break a tie is something head to head, no others involved.  Having said that I believe whoever won the most stages counting only those two (or however many are tied) would be fair.  YMMV

[Chicken George*]

I agree that a tie should stay a tie. But how do you work that if it is the top placing winners? I'm sure the trophies, belt buckles or whatever were ordered weeks in advance. They may be quite expensive and the budget may be spent. Do you give out one trophy and mail the other when you can get it?

 

As far as a shoot-off goes, I could see that working if it was a small match and the scores could be added up quickly. But I would think it wouldn't be practical in most large matches. They may not know there is a tie for hours or very late in the day. The range may be closed, it may be hard to get a hold of the shooters, or a ton of other things. I guess you could plan ahead and have a small bonus round that everyone shoots in the match which has it's own award and then use that score if you needed a tie breaker.

[billy broncstomper]

What if it was a tie for the overall at a state or regional where the winners normally win a free entry to the next level shoot? I think a tie is OK, but might need a tie breaker at some shoots.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

#1 Tie is a Tie they both earned it. Both should also get the free entry's  on state & regionals. If they win at Winter Range then they both should go to E.O.T. with a Yeeeh, Haa!

 

 

JRJ

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I don't know the answer but whatever method you plan on using to break ties should be announced prior to the 1st shot going down range.  The MD could seal a stage number inside an envelope and tell everyone that this will be used in the event of a tie.  You could even have a non-shooter come up in front during the opening ceremony and write the stage number down and seal the envelope.  Fastest overall time on stage X will break any tie.  That way everyone knows the plan up front.  

 

Waiting until it happens and then inventing a method for breaking the tie is going to cause hard feelings.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

On a lighter note:

Sometimes in a TIE, there are no winners as proof in the following clip.

Four shooters, two drop out first, and the last two end up in a TIE, and both lose. (their buckles are up for grabs, though)

Special Guest appearance by Dantankerous.

 

 

[Cat Brules]

I think the ties should remain ties.

 

HOWEVER

If a tie-breaker of some kind MUST occur, then I don't believe it should be hitched to the match and I do not believe the Match Director should be making decisions of any kind related to the tie, other than to let it occur.  I think there should be a separate, short, shoot-off to break 1st Place ties, and if the shoot-off results in a tie, then a 1st Place tie will still exist.  See my earlier reply, above, regarding other considerations for ties.

 

What follows is how I believe significant (or other) 1st Place ties (total time) should be resolved.  I don't have the interest to get into disagreements regarding possible flaws in this suggestion:

====================

 

Accuracy Shoot-Off To Break Ties

 

I think Champion (1st Place) ties could be broken by an accuracy shoot-off.   NOTE:  Before ANY tie-breaker compitition occurs, scoring and times should be rechecked.

..........

Cleanly split a playing card side-to-side, 

+  with ONE ROUND, 

+  from a measured twelve foot (12') distance, 

+  using a single revolver the shooter used in the earlier match, 

+  using no more than 5 rounds (up to 5 tries), 

+  within a timed period (20, 25, or 30 seconds).  

+  There must be a clean, side-to-side card split or the hit doesn't count for anything and the shooter stops competing.  

 

Unexpended rounds remaining for ANY reason (some reasons below) will be fired downrange onto a nearby dump target.  That is:

x  shooter splits his card cleanly with fewer than 5 rounds,

x  shooter produces a partial split (shooter stops competing),

x  time runs out.

  

AND,

--  If both shooters cleanly split their cards, the shooter who used the fewest number of rounds (tries) wins.

--  If both shooters use the same number of tries to cleanly split their cards, they share a 1st Place tie.

--  If neither shooter can split their card with 5 rounds (tries) or within the time limit, the tie remains and the shooters share a 1st Place tie. 

--  This a one-timer.....No redo's!!   

--  TIME is not a factor....aside from each shooter having the same amount of time to expend five (5) rounds (tries) in competition.

--  If both shooters hit their card, but do not produce a clean card split, they cease competing, expend any remaining rounds downrange on the dump target, NEITHER shooter wins the shoot-off, and they SHARE a 1st Place tie.

 

The loser of the shoot-off descends into Purgatory (second place), pushing all the lower placing shooters (including any lower place ties) down, in order, into the abyss......  :-)

 

====================

 

Cat Brules

 

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Lets say that a big match ends up with a tie for 1st place.    

 

A possible 'shoot off' could be arranged, maybe a Man on Man type shootoff.

WHO decides who gets the left side and who gets stuck with the right side?

Sometimes, starting position alone can favor one shooter over another.

 

Maybe a pre-determined stage will determine WHO gets the Caddy.

But what if that stage favored a Left hander?  One of the two winners is a lefty and the other a righty.  

 

I wish Creeker would jump back in here cause he's a better debater than I.

 

But, those are just a couple of my 'lunch table' debate points.

 

Interesting topic, no doubt.

 

..........Widder

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

WHAT IF??  WHAT IF??  WHAT IF??  Good grief Charlie Brown, it took us FOREVER to get rid of Rank Points.  Now folks want to whine about a theoretical scenario I can't remember ever happening.  After 10 or 12 stages of hot and heavy competition, TWO tie for Top Gun.  How about a nice quiet game of Russian Roulette??  Baseball Bats at 12 feet??  Sling Shots??  How about meeting in the parking lot at high noon with Shotguns??  Wait, skip the shotguns, Widder is faster wid a Shotgun than I am.

 

I'm drawing a blank.  Can anyone actually remember a match, Major, Minor, Local Loco ...... EVER ending in a TIE??

 

I did once attend a match where the Grand Prize really was a Pearlescent White Escalade.  Hot Wheels finest.  Wowzers!!

 

However, I must admit, this thread is more entertaining than most.

 

Besides, I win the shootout hands down.  After a couple of rounds of APP, Widder won't be able to see ANY targets

[Kirk James]

As stated in earlier forums I strongly believe a tie is a tie and should remain so.  If you noted, that was at the top of my list.  But if someone else is going to make the decision, and disagrees a tie should remain a tie,  it would be nice to have input.  I am not tech enough to make a poll.  All ideas were off other forums from shooters who disagree that a tie should remain a tie.  I am not one of those.  I have watched two gold metals given in many Olympics and a bronze to third.  I have only been involved with SASS for six years, and appreciate that the governing body has gone to total time.  Like said the chances are very, very slim. 

[J-BAR #18287]

I repeat my opinion from another thread.

 

If a tie occurs (at whatever level...Overall, or Category, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place...) ask the shooters who have tied what they want to do about it.  They have earned the right to express their opinion.  If they want to let it sit as a tie, fine.  If they want a winner decided between them, fine.

 

It will be rare enough that clubs can afford to be gracious and accommodating with the awards involved.

 

Clubs can be allowed latitude in this situation.  No need to force the decision to match any other club's decision.

[CodyMaverick]

_1____A tie in the overall championship should remain a tie.  Two champions. 

_1____All ties should remain tie.  (Ex. Two fourth places and a sixth) I would interpret this as 2 fourths and a fifth

_10____Lowest  no. of Rank pts. 

_?____Are there any misses?   Most? or Least?  (the shooter with the most misses was clearly faster, just food for thought)

_10____No of stages won head to head.

_10____Shooters stage with the greatest no of rank pts . takes the lower place.

_10____Let each match director decide the procedure for a tie. 

_10____Pick a stage at the beginning of the match.  Ex.  12^th stage. 

_10____Other: Any type of shoot off_______________________________________

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

For those who have never heard of a tie at a SASS-sanctioned match:

 

OREGON STATE 2010 

 

OR State Co-Champions - Mid Valley Drifter & Buffalo Wings - TIED @ 236.16 seconds.

No option for a shoot-off.

I called Hipshot and SASS HQ sent out a second OR State Champion buckle.

 

(Buckshot Shell-E won Oregon Ladies Champion)

Badlands Bud won 1st place Overall but was not an OR resident.

 

 

In the case of the OR State match, we would have had the two state resident overall winners "shoot it out" except that one of them had shot the match earlier with the rest of the match staff (as was more common at the time, including at EoT when we were utilizing Stage Drivers) and his firearms were no longer "on site"...it wouldn't have been fair to make him enter a Championship shoot off with borrowed guns.

As TG for the host club, I was requested to contact a member of the WB (Hipshot) directly (the HQ office is closed on Sunday).

After triple-checking the individual shooter & stage scores, it was decided that the best solution was to award State Champion buckles to both competitors.
There was no issue regarding one more "free" entry to the NW Regional match, either.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

31 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

It will be rare enough that clubs can afford to be gracious and accommodating with the awards involved.

I assure you this - if this hypothetical tie happens at Eldorado.

There will be another Buckle ordered with the event date and Category placement.

 

The ONLY debate will be which one of the shooters takes the buckle home that night and which one gets theirs in the mail.

[Kirk James]

Never assume.  What I meant for the poll is put a 1 but your most preferred method of settling a tie.  Put a 2 by the second most preferred method. Put a 3 by the third most preferred method and so on. Sorry about that.

[CodyMaverick]

41 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

Never assume.  What I meant for the poll is put a 1 but your most preferred method of settling a tie.  Put a 2 by the second most preferred method. Put a 3 by the third most preferred method and so on. Sorry about that.

 

That's exactly the way I interpreted your request.  In my case there was a massive tie for last place. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Lowest SASS number wins.  Seniority has it's privileges.

[Cat Brules]

On July 28, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Lets say that a big match ends up with a tie for 1st place.    

 

A possible 'shoot off' could be arranged, maybe a Man on Man type shootoff.

WHO decides who gets the left side and who gets stuck with the right side?

Sometimes, starting position alone can favor one shooter over another.

 

Maybe a pre-determined stage will determine WHO gets the Caddy.

But what if that stage favored a Left hander?  One of the two winners is a lefty and the other a righty.  

 

I wish Creeker would jump back in here cause he's a better debater than I.

 

But, those are just a couple of my 'lunch table' debate points.

 

Interesting topic, no doubt.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Using the card split routine I described earlier, that shoot-off is NOT man-on-man.  That one is all about splitting the card with the fewest tries (5 max), within the time allotted,  Each shooter may consume the max allowable time with no penalty.  Also the shooters may be stood up independently of one another.  It's quick, streamlined and requires only 2-3 people to run.  No misses or P's are counted and the TO only presses the buzzer to start and stop.  Pistols probably should be staged, loaded, on a table.

[Cheatin Charlie]

I know how to break ties, lets have a spelling contest!

 

 

[Blackey Cole]

You think that you are penalizing the non clean shooter I see as rewarding the cleanest shooter.