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Pat Riot, SASS #13748

Rossi 92 Questions, Update: Got my rifle...

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Howdy,

I have some questions about the Rossi 92.

I am looking to get a new rifle for CAS. I have been wavering between a Marlin 1894 and an 1892. I can't justify the cost of a Winchester '92 nor am I interested in any '66's or '73's.

I say this because I do not intend to solely use it for SASS. I want a strong action for non-SASS ammo. I will be shooting .45 Colt but I will be loading some hot loads for hunting and for big varmint medicine, be they varmints in the 2 or 4 legged class, when I am out and about in the woods. I do intend to "slick it up" a bit but not to the "race gun" standard that Nate Kiowa Jones mentions on his site. In other words I will deburr the working surfaces and that is it. The springs stay as they are.

 

So, on to my questions

1. Is the action of the Rossi 92 as strong as a Winchester's?

2. Is the Rossi cartridge length sensitive or are they okay as long as the cartridges are within SAAMI specs?

3. Is the rifling on Rossi barrels suitable for accuracy out to 100 yards?

 

I know the Marlin 1894 has a strong action, not as strong as Win '92's but stronger than most other pistol cartridge lever guns and that would be my second choice but only if it's a newly manufactured one after RemLim made all their machinery updates. OR an older gun made before 2006 or 2007 but it would have to be in fine shape for me to consider it. Currently they are only making .44 Magnum chambered rifles, from what I can glean from the Internet.

 

Anyway, those are my questions.

 

Thank you,

Pat Riot

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748

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1. Is the action of the Rossi 92 as strong as a Winchester's?

Strong enough to let you bruise yourself if you ever try to break it with .45 Colt rounds. Yes, it's strong. It's the vertical locking bolt design that makes it so.

 

2. Is the Rossi cartridge length sensitive or are they okay as long as the cartridges are within SAAMI specs?

 

Can be, will depend upon how well that particular lifter arm was tuned. If it's not, NKJ can sure slick it up, as can several other pards.

3. Is the rifling on Rossi barrels suitable for accuracy out to 100 yards?

 

Nope, it will never be good enough to shoot one hole 5 shot groups at 100 yards (that would be, in my book, superb accuracy).

 

Now, will it be enough to satisfy YOU? You haven't told us what you would be satisfied with. 5" groups? Most likely any one of their 92s will do that with a load that rifle likes. Minute of hog chest at 100 yards? Yep, unless you get a really bad one.

 

Accuracy in a rifle really can't be "foretold" - you gotta buy one and shoot it and even tune your loads for it. But then, you knew that.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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I have a rossi 92 ,brass frame,20"barrel,slicked by Nate.It is super slick and shoot great to 100 yards.Nice deer and hog gun with 357 rounds.It is great for hunting and I do shoot it sometimes at monthlies.I carry it as a back up for my 73.I have seen two cowboys run a 92 rossi faster that 75 or 80% of the cowboys can run a 73 or a marlin.Deuce Stevens has a video on of him running a 92 and Possum Skinner of LA. can make a 92 sing.If you are the average cowboy the marlin work on by a good smith is going to be faster for you than the 92.Just my 2 cents.Good luck.

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have a rossi 92 in 357. LOVE it.
I polished up the guts and it's slick and smooth. . As long as I do a COMPLETE stroke i"m good - if not it will not cock completely. it's the operator, not the gun.

I need to run 1.51 OAL 158 bullets to get 100% good feeds. If they're shot it's easy to eject a live round. No idea if 45's are as touchy or not. Since mine will do 357 it's got to be able to handle thier length, so that is I think the issue. run 357 cases and it's not an issue.

 

accuracy? I've not put mine on paper at 100 yards, but we have steel targets at 200 yards at our range and with 357 loads I can from standing hit em all day long (smaller than SASS targets). I"m not shooting grounhogs with open sights, not shooting deer at 200 yards with a 357..so it's more than accurate for what it's capable of shooting - btw, 357 rounds, 158 jacketed, come out at just a hair over 2000fps..that's in the 'hood of a 30-30 in speed and bullet weight, not same bullet design though.

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Thank you, Pards.

 

Garrison Joe,

5" at 100 would be just okay and so would minute of hog vitals, or deer vitals. Obviously tighter is better but 5" wouldn't break my heart but it would be disappointing if that was the best I could ring out of it with handloads.

 

I have a Winchester '94 in .357 that is accurate as all get out with the right loads but I like a little more Umph in bear, cat and scoundrel country. I do have other hunting rifles but I want a .45 Colt firing lever gun just because...

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I would suggest you at least swap out the ejector spring with one from Nate Kiowa jones and cut a half to a full coil off the lever lock spring. The overly strong ejector spring is what makes the 92 tough to operate. I also replaced the hammer spring in mine.

 

I have never had a failure to ignite any brand of primer or ever had a case fail to eject. My slicked up 92 has been totally reliable with the only exception of user error (failure to run the lever all the way forward)

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Rossi makes or did make a 92 in 454 casull. I believe max presssue is 60,000cup. 45 colt max pressure is something like 14,000-15,000cup. Cup pressures are from memory, but even if I'm off a little bit, the difference is still substantial. The action is plenty strong enough for any 45 colt loads.

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I know the Marlin 1894 has a strong action, not as strong as Win '92's

Pat Riot

 

Where did you get that piece of misinformation?

The Marlin uses a massive internal locking block, while the winny's are visible.

JMB had to work around Marlin's patents, to design those rifles.

Marlin 94 only has 4 moving main parts. Much easier to keep run'n than the Winny 92 style.

Winny and Marlin are outstanding designs, and can take anything you throw at'em.

Respectfully,

OLG

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Where did you get that piece of misinformation?

 

Here: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

 

He claims that the 92 is a little more stout than the Marlin 1894...at least that is what I gathered from it. But he does say that the Marlin action is very strong.

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So, on to my questions

1. Is the action of the Rossi 92 as strong as a Winchester's?

The Rossi M92 is a Winchester dual locking lug clone

2. Is the Rossi cartridge length sensitive or are they okay as long as the cartridges are within SAAMI specs?

Within SAMMI but not longer than SAMMI - ie, 45LC SAMMI is 1.60. I shoot them from 1.595 to 1.598

3. Is the rifling on Rossi barrels suitable for accuracy out to 100 yards?

Yes, and as good as one's trigger finger ... out to 200yds with the 45LC. I won a whole Taylor Ham at a match one time breaking a Tuco hangman's rope at 25yds with my 24 incher & a vernier

I own three: two 45LC's and a 38 Spl converted to 32-20

Edited by John Boy

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No facts to back up his claim.

Both will far exceed SAAMI psi specs.

I'll stick with my Marlin 94's ;)

Much easier to take down and repair along with cleaning.

With nothing but highest respect to JMB. I swear, that man must have loved puzzles. :lol:

If you ever take apart an '86, '92, or a '94. You'll see what I mean. ^_^

OLG

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If you ever take apart an '86, '92, or a '94. You'll see what I mean.

Dead on Grits ... but he sure brought black powder into the smokeless powder era and basically said ... ' Bye, bye to those worn out toggle link issues :)

I read he took only a $50,000 check instead of taking royalties

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Lumpy, I agree regarding the Marlin and cleaning AND if Marlin does make a .45 Colt, like they claim they were going to at the beginning of this year, I still may buy one.

 

Mr. Browning's designs don't bother me and neither do intricate designs of other firearms. I can disassemble, repair and reassemble a '94 in very short order. I am sure a '92 won't be that difficult.

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You really want to do at least some slicking of the 92 action. The ejector spring IMHO is a must do. Otherwise you will have a tough time locating brass thrown well behind you. It will also save a lot of damage to your empty cases. The ejector spring in a factory R92 can be strong enough to deform the fired cases as they are ejected.

 

Next must do is reducing the trigger pull. This will do a lot to improve your accuracy.

 

I would also do the loading gate spring modification as it will save your fingers some wear and tear without reducing the reliability of the rifle.

 

Installing a SS mag tube follower heads off the certain failure of the plastic one that comes from the factory.

 

Re-profiling the RH cartridge guide per NKJ instructions may greatly reduce the tendency of the rifle to misfeed. I cannot say how it will impact a rifle in 45 Colt or 454 Casul but in .357 it is worth doing.

 

All of the above will improve the reliability and accuracy of your rifle.

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Howdy Pat Riot.

 

If you decide on either the 92 or the Marlin 94, either will serve your needs in digesting HOT loads.

 

I have a 16.25" Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt that I shoot some HOT stuff out of.

 

I took some .454 Casull brass and trimmed em back to .45 Colt length. The .454 Casull brass uses Small Rifle Primers.

 

Using LilGun powder and 250-300 grain slugs, my 16.25" Marlin will produce velocities and power equal to a hot .454 Casull in a 7" barrel.

 

I mention this because if you use .45 Colt brass and start to experience split brass, you'll have a good option in using .454 Casull brass trimmed back to .45 Colt length.

I have found the .454 brass to be little bit tougher, especially down in the web area, which is one of the reasons for it being made to use Small Primers (rifle or pistol). I prefer Rifle.

 

Good luck in your choices.

 

 

..........Widder

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I have two original 1892s and had a Rossi. All were good guns that could be taken to the stand or the stage.

I also have a Marlin 1894 .44 Mag jm-marked. I consider it a better field gun since it is predrilled and tapped for optics and has a side eject.

Even if the Marlin shot groups a couple inches larger than the 3.5" @ 100 yards that I have encountered, it would still be my first choice over the 92 design.

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Wow, this is all great info. Thank you all very much.

 

I did look for an older Marlin but it seems that all the ones I have found weren't well taken care of or had some issue that made them undesirable to me. I am in no great hurry right now. Patience is a good thing.

 

Heck, maybe I'll end up with a '92 and a Marlin and can make my own comparison...who knows, but I really do appreciate all the feedback.

 

Widowmaker, thanks for the pointers on .454 brass. That's a good idea.

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My 92 is a 24 inch Oct. Barreled version I load the "Speer" 300 gr. FP bullet at 1,500 Fps. and it will keep 5 shots under 4 inches at 100 meters using the factory open sights....

It will also keep my Match loads of a full case load of Goex 3F under a Soft Cast 270 grain RNFP bullet lubed with SPG in a sub 4 inch group at 100 Meters ...

 

Both loads will take a big Alberta deer ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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My R92 .44 Magnum with 24" octagonal barrel will do this offhand at 50 yards.

 

2013-11-03T18-16-44.jpg?psid=1

 

The dispersion is probably more me than the rifle. I have a 20 inch .44 SRC Puma with a round barrel and the medallion.

 

I also have a .357 with a 24" octagonal barrel. All of them shoot very similarly.

 

All three will cycle Magnums just fine but they don't like shorter Specials especially at speed.

 

I load Specials out to 1.56" and they'll run just fine.

Edited by J.W. Sinclair

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No facts to back up his claim.

Both will far exceed SAAMI psi specs.

I'll stick with my Marlin 94's ;)

Much easier to take down and repair along with cleaning.

With nothing but highest respect to JMB. I swear, that man must have loved puzzles. :lol:

If you ever take apart an '86, '92, or a '94. You'll see what I mean. ^_^

OLG

 

Let’s talk traditional levergun pressures. Top end for a 30-30 is at about 40,000 PSI. The 44mag top end loads see about 40 to 45,000 psi.

For the other pistol cal leverguns that’s the top end limit. But Rossi chambers their 92’s in 454 Casull. The Casull ammo can see upwards of 60,000. That's 308 and 30-06 pressures. Not even Marlins 336/95 action will handle those pressures. The Rossi 92 actions are doing fine at those levels.

The reason the 92 will handle this pressure is because of two things inherent in it's design. First is the twin locking bolts. The other leverguns like the marlins and the 94 win have single locking bolts that come up behind the breech bolt and are turned flat with the thin side toward the breech bolt. Under load it flexes much like a 2x4 used as a pry bar does when you use the flat wide side down. The 92 has two locking bolts turned to the narrow side so the wide portion doesn't flex.

Next is the angle of engagement of the two. The single locking bolt gun has to have the locking bolt laid back at a much more severe angle in relationship to the breech bolt. If it were more perpendicular the action would seize up when fired. So, once the pressured reach the 50,000 point or so, the action tries to fly open. The 92 on the other hand with its twin locking bolts which disburses the pressure over more area, are positioned more toward the perpendicular which helps to prevent the action from trying to fly open.

On a side note, Freedom Arms, the folks that deleloped the 454 casull did some testing using a Marlin 336/95 style action

chambered in 454 Casull. After a few rounds it actually pushed the breech bolt over the locking bolt out the top of the receiver. They probably had the lever tied so it wouldn't fly open.

 

The Winchester 86 is a strong action too, but I think the 92 is stronger because it has a frame web just behind and below the locking bolts that ties the two side of the receiver together. The 86 doesn't have that web.

This is my 24" octagon converted from 45lc to 454 Casull. I built this one because the round barrel carbines are just too light. The gun will do 2 MOA at 200 yds. But, I can't. I have a friend that has good eyes and a tree stump shoulder that can do it with full power Casull ammo. For me that just too punishing. I have it sighted in at 75 yds with Buffalo bore's +P 45lc's

005.jpg

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I may be repeating what someone else has said but one huge advantage of the Marlin is that a scope can easily be mounted on top with no trouble at all. Use it without scope for CAS, come hunting season, screw the scope on.

 

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Also, the Marlin can be modified so a variety of case and cartridge over all lengths will cycle. The Marlin can run C45S, 45 Schofield, or 45 Colt with a modified carrier and timing adjustments.

 

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Nate-Good points and thank you for the time to post that!

One thing about the Marlin 94, is the size of the locking block's contact area.

The block is the width of the receiver. The block itself has far more mass the the 2 blocks used by JMB.

The deal is-They both will take any psi thrown at them.

Respectfully,

OLG

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I have a 20" octagon bbl'd Rossi 1892 and a 17" octagon bbl'd Marlin 1894, both are in a "rifle" configuration, (no barrel bands). Neither is as strong an action as my 1885. All are in 45 Colt, all are more accurate than I am. What NKJ said about the relative strengths between the Marlin & Winchester designs.

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Nate-Good points and thank you for the time to post that!

One thing about the Marlin 94, is the size of the locking block's contact area.

The block is the width of the receiver. The block itself has far more mass the the 2 blocks used by JMB.

The deal is-They both will take any psi thrown at them.

Respectfully,

OLG

But, its actual contact area with the bolt or the receiver walls is not any greater. Without that "tie" between the L & R receiver walls, its more susceptible to spreading. But this is just pickin' nits... Either is plenty gun to handle 44 Magnum or the 45 Colt loads designated for the Ruger or Contender pistols in the reloading manuals.

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Nate Kiowa Jones, Thank you for your input. You pretty much confirmed what I thought but wasn't sure of and I appreciate you taking the time.

 

I looked at the actions of all the various SASS legal long guns in drawings and photos and some of my own experience working on them, though my experience with 66's and 73's was quite brief and limited but I knew that they would not work for me for what I am looking for. Also, I do not want to reinvent the wheel by trying to modify a rifle to do things that it's design would not allow. I may not be pretty but I like my face the way it is and especially my eyes and hands. I am not one to push the envelope (too much ;) ) when it comes to firearms.

 

Original Lumpy Gritz and Warden Callaway, Thank you. I do like Marlins very much and I have owned a few. They definitely have their pluses and I will get another someday. I have no designs on mounting a scope. Maybe I am a little old fashioned but I have never had a lot of luck with scopes but this gun wouldn't be used for anything that I feel warrants a scope. I have other scoped rifles if I need optical assistance B)

 

Griff, J. W. Sinclair and Jabez Cowboy, Thank you for your input regarding 92's.

 

Griff, I would love to get a nice 1885 but if I do it will probably be a 45-70...a .45 would be a bit slow loading on the clock for CAS :rolleyes:

 

JW, the convenience of loading and shooting smaller cartridges in a rifle such as .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum gun or a .44 Special in a .44 Magnum has never been a "convenience" for me. They are okay in a revolver but if I want .38 ballistics in my .357 I load down for power but keep the cartridge length the dimension the rifle was designed for.

 

I do appreciate everyone's input. Thank you.

 

Pat Riot :FlagAm:

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I really wish people wouldn't post this much information about a gun I don't own. It makes me want to own one haha. I guess I'll be window shopping 92's next

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But, its actual contact area with the bolt or the receiver walls is not any greater. Without that "tie" between the L & R receiver walls, its more susceptible to spreading. But this is just pickin' nits... Either is plenty gun to handle 44 Magnum or the 45 Colt loads designated for the Ruger or Contender pistols in the reloading manuals.

No-Neither is that susceptible to spreading.

The main reason JMB went with the 2 piece bolt lock was Marlin's patent.

Same means to an 'end'.

OLG

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Superman vs. Mighty Mouse.

 

Both can be loaded with enough power for anything east of the slopes of the Rocks within sensible range. I wouldn't go after grizz, moose, elk or even antelope with eather.

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Hahaha...Redwood Kid, yeah, I know.

:D After I posted I started looking at 1885's...I love this stuff!

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Hahaha...Redwood Kid, yeah, I know.

:D After I posted I started looking at 1885's...I love this stuff!

I've been looking at 1886's for awhile now. I love they way those look and really love the 45-70 round. It doesn't get enough use for me these days, so perhaps a 92 might. I better shut up now before I talk myself into another rifle I don't need.

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Another vote for JMB and his 92. I have had two. Current one is a 5 year old Brizelian 24" octagon barreled rifle in 45 colt. Feed it cartridges from 1.565 to 1.590" in length and it will gobble them up and spit out the brass as fast as I can run the lever. This rifle has never jammed. It is thin, very smooth and light weight. The strength comes from design not by adding beef and that barrel swings like a shotgun. I have played with a friends 454 Cassul round barreled Rossi and it is a cannon. Maybe evan obnoxious.

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