Shotgun Round. Count

[Lil_Rob]

What is it that every shotgun round count is an even number? We have 9 round rifle stages. Why not 3 or 7 round shotgun stages?

[Grizzly Dave]

Because an odd number would give 97 shooters a perceived advantage. Is it really an advantage, I don't know.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Yes. It is an advantage to 97 shooters.

[Lil_Rob]

Oh and even isn't an advantage for doubles

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Oh and even isn't an advantage for doubles

Not exactly, depending upon the shooter and their abilities with their SG.

 

But with odd number SG targets, the stage designer has interjected an advantage towards one style of SG and a disadvantage over another style.

 

I agree with Possum.

 

 

..........Widder

[Lil_Rob]

Oh and even isn't an advantage for doubles

[Lil_Rob]

We everyone has an opinion. But watching some of the double shooters shot 2 targets setting side by side don't tell we the advantage doesn't go to the SXS when you can't tell the difference between the 2 shots

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Oh and even isn't an advantage for doubles

 

not really.

most of the fast 97 shooters around here grab 4 from the belt meaning on a 4 target sequence they move their hand to the belt once for 4 targets. (or three)

I have only seen one SxS shooter try to grab four to reduce their hand motions and most of the time they grab 2 regardless of whether there are odd or even numbers of targets.

 

I am not super fast like those folks in the top 10 at EOT with a SxS as I can barely break 4 seconds for 4 targets but when I have timed myself the splits are about 1.68 to load and fire the first round and about .20 to fire the second round, the second set of 2 is about 1.80 to reload and fire the first round with about the same split for the second round which means when I go to the belt for 2 more shells my second shot splits are a bit faster than a 97 but the grab for two more shells to reload is considerably longer than the 97 shooter single loading (without going back to the belt) for a follow up shot.

 

Now if you really want to make the pot boil (to keep things even LOL) simply propose that all shooters may have no more than 2 SG rounds in hand at any time and set up as many odd or even scenarios as you like.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

 

Around here we almost never see 2 target situations, at least 4 and often more.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

The SPLITS between the 2 shots might be less for the SxS shooter, but the load speeds of the 97 shooter make up the difference.

 

Besides, there are some 97 shooters who can nearly mimic the split times of some SxS shooters.

 

Example: split times of the SxS shooter can run in the sub .20 times....sometimes like .17 or less.

 

The split times of a 97 shooter can run sub .40, sometimes like .35 or .37 of a second.

 

This difference is only .20 (1/5 of one second), which can hardly be discerned sometimes.

 

Anyhow, it can take a SxS shooter 1.5 seconds or more to retrieve more shells from his belt and put in the chamber. But a 97 shooter might already have 4 shells in their loading hand and doesn't have to retrieve more ammo from the belt.

 

Even some good 97 shooters who only grab 2 shells at a time can go back to their belt, retrieve 2 more shells and fire off their 3rd round in less than a second from their 2nd shot. Add a split time of .38 into the firing of the 4th round, and this is where the SxS shooter doesn't necessarily have any advantage over a good 97 shooter.

 

Its just the way it is.

 

 

..........Widder

[Blastmaster]

Widder is correct, stage writers can interject advantages/disadvantages. Now a days, it is a sxs world, and that is alright.

 

 

Stage writing that assist the sxs shooter.

 

ending the stage on SG is an advantage to sxs.... They don't have to shuck the last two hulls on the clock, nor worry about a stuck hull on the last round(providing they get both KD's)

 

Eliminating vertical staging and restaging of SG helps out the sxs.

 

Minimizing shooting from behind high tables also helps as well as allowing sxs to use the end of a table to swing barrels down for reloading.

 

Close spaced SG KD's helps too, just basically pull the second trigger as fast as you can w/o aiming, the target will be there.

 

Other than that.. it is a horse race.

[Assassin]

Sounds like the targets need to be placed further apart or deeper in the berm where ever you are shooting. Write some scenarios and set up the match as you would prefer it to be shot. If you get good reviews all will be happy, if you get negative criticism so be it. I've shot 97's and SxS's for many years, I don't like targets close together , nor do I like odd numbers. I would not set up a match with 4 SG targets to be shot from one position either, however there are folks that like shooting everything from one position.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Another example:

 

at EOT this year, Prestidigitator won Speed 97 with 4 shots in 3.10 seconds.

 

I don't know what the speed time was for the SxS with 4 shots, but I doubt it was any faster than that.

 

Although 3.10 seconds IS fast for 4 shots (with any SG), there are a number of shooters with 97's and SxS who can probably go sub 3.0 on any given run.

 

 

..........Widder

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Widder is correct, stage writers can interject advantages/disadvantages. Now a days, it is a sxs world, and that is alright.

 

 

Stage writing that assist the sxs shooter.

 

ending the stage on SG is an advantage to sxs.... They don't have to shuck the last two hulls on the clock, nor worry about a stuck hull on the last round(providing they get both KD's)

If it is the last gun no advantage either way as the 97 doesn't have to kick out the last hull on the clock either or if there is a stuck hull in the 97 it can be cleared off the clock as well

 

Eliminating vertical staging and restaging of SG helps out the sxs.

the restaging part can be harder for the SxS but a lot of the high end SxS have some form of a hold open in the action to keep them from closing when you pick them up or put them down

 

Minimizing shooting from behind high tables also helps as well as allowing sxs to use the end of a table to swing barrels down for reloading.

shooting from lower tables helps way more than SxS shooters. vertically challenged shooters probably don't like to shoot over a tall table same for smaller, younger shooters. if the tables are tall enough you are begging a shorter shooter to hit the downrange edge regardless of the firearm used. as far as using the table to open or close the SxS that is way to inconsistent a technique for a good shooter to depend on as no two tables are ever the same height.

 

Close spaced SG KD's helps too, just basically pull the second trigger as fast as you can w/o aiming, the target will be there.

I use that brass bead thingy for every SG target I shoot at. Why wouldn't you use a tool specifically designed to help you?

 

Other than that.. it is a horse race.

Yes it is and some horses like short speed tracks and some like long endurance tracks. both horses have to run the same track and it doesn't change much over the course of the race

 

IMHO there are shooters who can make any firearm, any sequence, any spacing, any sweep, any prop work to their benefit. If there were a major difference between equipment every one would be using that equipment only. There will always be differences between shooters because some are tall, some can run, some are short, some are heavyset (like me ). some are young and have great reflexes etc etc etc

No big deal just go out and shoot your game - have fun!!!

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

not really.

most of the fast 97 shooters around here grab 4 from the belt meaning on a 4 target sequence they move their hand to the belt once for 4 targets. (or three)

I have only seen one SxS shooter try to grab four to reduce their hand motions and most of the time they grab 2 regardless of whether there are odd or even numbers of targets.

 

I am not super fast like those folks in the top 10 at EOT with a SxS as I can barely break 4 seconds for 4 targets but when I have timed myself the splits are about 1.68 to load and fire the first round and about .20 to fire the second round, the second set of 2 is about 1.80 to reload and fire the first round with about the same split for the second round which means when I go to the belt for 2 more shells my second shot splits are a bit faster than a 97 but the grab for two more shells to reload is considerably longer than the 97 shooter single loading (without going back to the belt) for a follow up shot.

 

Now if you really want to make the pot boil (to keep things even LOL) simply propose that all shooters may have no more than 2 SG rounds in hand at any time and set up as many odd or even scenarios as you like.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

 

Around here we almost never see 2 target situations, at least 4 and often more.

 

+1

The SPLITS between the 2 shots might be less for the SxS shooter, but the load speeds of the 97 shooter make up the difference.

 

Besides, there are some 97 shooters who can nearly mimic the split times of some SxS shooters.

 

Example: split times of the SxS shooter can run in the sub .20 times....sometimes like .17 or less.

 

The split times of a 97 shooter can run sub .40, sometimes like .35 or .37 of a second.

 

This difference is only .20 (1/5 of one second), which can hardly be discerned sometimes.

 

Anyhow, it can take a SxS shooter 1.5 seconds or more to retrieve more shells from his belt and put in the chamber. But a 97 shooter might already have 4 shells in their loading hand and doesn't have to retrieve more ammo from the belt.

 

Even some good 97 shooters who only grab 2 shells at a time can go back to their belt, retrieve 2 more shells and fire off their 3rd round in less than a second from their 2nd shot. Add a split time of .38 into the firing of the 4th round, and this is where the SxS shooter doesn't necessarily have any advantage over a good 97 shooter.

 

Its just the way it is.

 

 

..........Widder

+1

[Blastmaster]

Widder is correct, stage writers can interject advantages/disadvantages. Now a days, it is a sxs world, and that is alright.

 

 

Stage writing that assist the sxs shooter.

 

ending the stage on SG is an advantage to sxs.... They don't have to shuck the last two hulls on the clock, nor worry about a stuck hull on the last round(providing they get both KD's)

If it is the last gun no advantage either way as the 97 doesn't have to kick out the last hull on the clock either or if there is a stuck hull in the 97 it can be cleared off the clock as well

 

 

last two SG targets and last of stage

sxs -load-bang-bang

97-load-bang-eject-load-bang

 

Eliminating vertical staging and restaging of SG helps out the sxs.

the restaging part can be harder for the SxS but a lot of the high end SxS have some form of a hold open in the action to keep them from closing when you pick them up or put them down

 

High end sxs may have that hold open feature and then the craddle thingy, for plywood horses, which assist for staging,, The recent rule change allows the sxs shooter to now restage empty but closed action, and this sure does speed the process up vs the old rules.

 

Minimizing shooting from behind high tables also helps as well as allowing sxs to use the end of a table to swing barrels down for reloading.

shooting from lower tables helps way more than SxS shooters. vertically challenged shooters probably don't like to shoot over a tall table same for smaller, younger shooters. if the tables are tall enough you are begging a shorter shooter to hit the downrange edge regardless of the firearm used. as far as using the table to open or close the SxS that is way to inconsistent a technique for a good shooter to depend on as no two tables are ever the same height.

 

As you pointed out, table height plays a bigger role. sxs would want a lower table, where a 97 shooter would want a higher table (providing they can see over it..

Narrow and low windows (they were common many years ago but are now gone) would favor 97's

 

Close spaced SG KD's helps too, just basically pull the second trigger as fast as you can w/o aiming, the target will be there.

I use that brass bead thingy for every SG target I shoot at. Why wouldn't you use a tool specifically designed to help you?

 

regaining sign picture for second shot is extremely quicker with sxs (you already have the gun shouldered and head in position, with close targets than it is with 97's (nature of the beast). I can speed it up when the SG targets are swingers and I just ram and jam the second shot with minimal concern of aiming. My point is, the sxs can ram and jam the second shot even quicker with targets close together. Good on ya.

 

Other than that.. it is a horse race.

Yes it is and some horses like short speed tracks and some like long endurance tracks. both horses have to run the same track and it doesn't change much over the course of the race

 

If the match is set up for short speed track, then the short track horse will have the advantage. Not as good an outcome if you put a long distant horse on a short track. And that's the way it is and how stage writers can influence the match.

IMHO there are shooters who can make any firearm, any sequence, any spacing, any sweep, any prop work to their benefit. If there were a major difference between equipment every one would be using that equipment only. There will always be differences between shooters because some are tall, some can run, some are short, some are heavyset (like me ). some are young and have great reflexes etc etc etc

No big deal just go out and shoot your game - have fun!!!

As Deuce noted, the top 10 shooters where shooting sxs at EOT. As well, you can see every day, shooters switching from 97's to sxs to gain the advantage. That's alright and if one wants it (winning) bad enough, they will pay the money for new hardware + put in the time to retrain.

[Hoss]

a club that I shoot at some (but have never wrote stages for) frequently has 2 shotgun targets with instructions to hit both twice, double taps allowed. this is a decided advantage to the SxS shooters (myself included) Some try to pull both triggers at once, I've tried that but found that I did not get the 2nd trigger pulled, was already shucking when I figured it out, so had to reload! Since I now have reversed triggers its easy to sweep them, 2 shots, but does sound like one. Whenever that scenario comes up the 97 shooters grumble! Of course us SxS shooters commiserate...... This scenario is probably not fair to the 97 shooters. on the other hand, nobody is making them shoot a 97.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

frequently has 2 shotgun targets with instructions to hit both twice, double taps allowed. this is a decided advantage to the SxS shooters (myself included)

 

That is unfair and should be avoided . If yer gonna write stages shooting stationary SG targets the required hits should be spaced out....ie S1-S2-S1-S2....or S1-S2-S3-S4. Most clubs use knockdowns for SG anywho .......I can't remember the last club or time I shot a stationary SG target .......swingers are still used every now and then, but you gotta call them all hits..ie the Majic BB ......Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[J-BAR #18287]

It depends on where you shoot. At the Southern Missouri Ranger's Outlaw Range, typically half the stages call for 3 shotgun shots.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Oh and even isn't an advantage for doubles

It is not an advantage for doubles, it puts doubles on more equal footing with 97 shooters. Not too hard to understand really.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Bring on the Doubles:

 

 

 

 

There is a renown 97 shooter out in Oklahoma (won't mention any names) that is probably the most proficient 97 shooter around because he is a lefty. He grabs 4 with his right hand and feeds em in so fast that it makes you tremble...

 

 

..........Widder

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Bring on the Doubles:

 

 

 

 

There is a renown 97 shooter out in Oklahoma (won't mention any names) that is probably the most proficient 97 shooter around because he is a lefty. He grabs 4 with his right hand and feeds em in so fast that it makes you tremble...

 

 

..........Widder

Happens so fast I don't have time to tremble!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Bring on the Doubles:

 

 

 

 

There is a renown 97 shooter out in Oklahoma (won't mention any names) that is probably the most proficient 97 shooter around because he is a lefty. He grabs 4 with his right hand and feeds em in so fast that it makes you tremble...

 

 

..........Widder

Holy Crap! That's incredible. I take back all the bad things I have ever said about 97's haha.

 

Once in awhile I will see odd number of shot gun targets, like 5 in a row. Whenever I see something like that, the gamer in me sets aside the hammered double and picks up the 87. That'll show em!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Geesh....

Once again.

Maybe we should limit the number of rifle rounds to 9 because of what some shooters pick.

 

You picked your shotgun. Now lets set up some 6,7 and 8 shotgun stages!

[Blastmaster]

Geesh....

Once again.

 

 

You picked your shotgun. Now lets set up some 6,7 and 8 shotgun stages!

OK,

 

Three KD from far right side of stage,

Move to far left side of stage and engage three more KD.

That adds up to an even six targets. LOL

 

If you do not prefer that then,,,

one KD from far right side of stage,

Move to far left side of stage and engage five more KD

That too, adds up to six targets. LOL.

 

My only point through all this is,,, the stage writer can influence to the better, one style of SG vs another.

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well,

 

Learned a new way to shoot split shotgun target arrays with 3 targets on the left & 3 on the right with SxS.

 

Load 2 from the belt shoot 2, load 2 from the belt shot 1, open SxS but don't shuck shells, run to other location slam shut SxS & shoot 1, load 2 from belt and shoot 2. Only have to go to the belt 3 times. Don't have to mess with loading SxS on the run and you can just run full speed to second location. A big thanks to TN Critr for shooting ahead of me and using this technique.

 

Disclaimer: Running full speed may not be the same mph for all shooters.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

P.S. Widder ain't normal shooting a '97, he's super human.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Geesh....

Once again.

Maybe we should limit the number of rifle rounds to 9 because of what some shooters pick.

 

You picked your shotgun. Now lets set up some 6,7 and 8 shotgun stages!

Easy with the logic bomb Col. Jessup...😁

[Billy the Avenger]

Here is Deuce Stevens Speed sxs video

 

if I Remember correctly his time was 3.12

 

https://youtu.be/k1rZZKgoYCU

 

Billy The Avenger

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Basically would appear that the shooter is the driving factor to how competitive a shotgun is. As long as it isn't straight stand and deliver the shotguns are equal enough.

 

I favor the run what you bring with pride and to your best ability mindset. It's not like the 97 is getting five or six shells onboard or there is a loaded start for one and not the other.

 

Where are the '87 shooters on this debate? Or even the single shot ejector shooter? They're allegedly the slowest of the bunch. Let's hear from them on the subject.

[CodyMaverick]

Basically would appear that the shooter is the driving factor to how competitive a shotgun is. As long as it isn't straight stand and deliver the shotguns are equal enough.

 

I favor the run what you bring with pride and to your best ability mindset. It's not like the 97 is getting five or six shells onboard or there is a loaded start for one and not the other.

 

Where are the '87 shooters on this debate? Or even the single shot ejector shooter? They're allegedly the slowest of the bunch. Let's hear from them on the subject.

All good points.

 

These types of threads start out as a general inquiry but quickly morph into discussions and comparisons of what may make a difference among the top shooters without much consideration of the average shooters. With the average shooters, the type of gun used is way down on the list of factors that determine how well they'll perform a stage or match. I think odd numbers of shotgun targets can easily be 'perceived' as an advantage for a '97 but in reality it doesn't make a difference for most of us. Missing a shotgun target and having to make it up will have a much greater impact.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

All good points.

 

These types of threads start out as a general inquiry but quickly morph into discussions and comparisons of what may make a difference among the top shooters without much consideration of the average shooters. With the average shooters, the type of gun used is way down on the list of factors that determine how well they'll perform a stage or match. I think odd numbers of shotgun targets can easily be 'perceived' as an advantage for a '97 but in reality it doesn't make a difference for most of us. Missing a shotgun target and having to make it up will have a much greater impact.

 

 

Well stated Cody.

 

And I agree with Carolina Gunslinger who also stated it very well.

 

Your top shooters, whether it be a super fast shooter with rifle, pistols or SG, has practice 'a good bit' to achieve that 'Borg Speed'.

 

And to those who are in the Top of our game, their time in working with the guns AND transitions is commendable and obviously shows in their proficiency of every stage.

 

Its fun to watch those folks and we all can learn from them.

 

 

..........Widder

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

You don't get richer by bringing down the rich and you don't get faster by making the fast slower.

 

A lot of people think so though. To test this just write some odd number shotgun stages into your next match and listen to the comments.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Well,

 

Learned a new way to shoot split shotgun target arrays with 3 targets on the left & 3 on the right with SxS.

 

Load 2 from the belt shoot 2, load 2 from the belt shot 1, open SxS but don't shuck shells, run to other location slam shut SxS & shoot 1, load 2 from belt and shoot 2. Only have to go to the belt 3 times. Don't have to mess with loading SxS on the run and you can just run full speed to second location. A big thanks to TN Critr for shooting ahead of me and using this technique.

 

That won't work with some single trigger inertia doubles. If you shoot one and open the gun, it will recock that barrel. Then, when you close it, you will fire that barrel again. if you have selective triggers, you can switch triggers but it is easier for me just to dump the live one and reload again. However, I do understand there are some ranges that you can't do that.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

All good points.

 

These types of threads start out as a general inquiry but quickly morph into discussions and comparisons of what may make a difference among the top shooters without much consideration of the average shooters. With the average shooters, the type of gun used is way down on the list of factors that determine how well they'll perform a stage or match. I think odd numbers of shotgun targets can easily be 'perceived' as an advantage for a '97 but in reality it doesn't make a difference for most of us. Missing a shotgun target and having to make it up will have a much greater impact.

What is an average shooter?

[Grizzly Dave]

All good points.

 

These types of threads start out as a general inquiry but quickly morph into discussions and comparisons of what may make a difference among the top shooters without much consideration of the average shooters. With the average shooters, the type of gun used is way down on the list of factors that determine how well they'll perform a stage or match. I think odd numbers of shotgun targets can easily be 'perceived' as an advantage for a '97 but in reality it doesn't make a difference for most of us. Missing a shotgun target and having to make it up will have a much greater impact.

 

Cody - I refer back to Gateway Kids post and his point about how many times a shooter has to go to their belt.

 

3 Targets

SxS - twice

97 - once

4 targets

SxS - twice

97 - once (for most 97 shooters I've been around who are well practiced at pulling 4)

5 targets

SxS - three times

97 - twice

 

Middle of the pack shooters vary in ability. Yes, some have the strength and dexterity to one hand shuck while the other is going to the belt, others do not and do a two hand shuck and then go to the belt. And yes, some 97 shooters can't pull 4 at a time.

 

Right or wrong, like it or not, having an even number of shotgun targets to 'level the playing field between SxS and 97 shooters' is the well established norm in this game. I don't see it changing.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

I'm an average shooter. I'm someone who can run a stage really well or tank it on any given Sunday. I'm top ten capable and last third capable depending on the game I brought. I know how to get the hits with every firearm, but don't always have that razor focus and sometimes miss. I generally enjoy myself at matches, but occasionally suffer meltdowns and frustration. I make errors and earn the P or MSV sometimes. It affects my placement and puts me nearer to or even below people I normally best. I am the average shooter.