Shotgun Round. Count

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

I am a double with hammers shooter.

Always have been.

Only shot a 97 in one match on a bet, hee hee.

 

This discussion comes up all the time.

I am sure it was a topic at the very first SASS match.

 

Does one shotgun have an advantage over the others?

 

Well maybe, sort of.

Depends on target numbers.

Target layout.

Who is the shooter.

 

Yes, I have an opinion on this subject but I do not make the rules.

 

My suggestion is, if you think one shotgun over another has an advantage then shoot that shotgun.

If the matches you go to mix up the target numbers and layout, then take more than one shotgun and choose the one you think gives you the advantage.

Take several shotgun and shoot the match like a round of golf ad choose the shotgun you think is best for the stage. (I do not play golf)

 

Over the years, what I have seen is the shooter who sticks with one type of shotgun gets really good with it.

Those who choose to use different shotgun to suit the stage get really average with those shotguns.

 

As long as the rules say you can use a double, pump or lever shotgun, the advantages perceived are what they are.

Pick one.

Step up to the stage and take it on.

Be safe.

Have fun.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

 

Right or wrong, like it or not, having an even number of shotgun targets to 'level the playing field between SxS and 97 shooters' is the well established norm in this game. I don't see it changing.

The general attitude of having fun coming ahead of building the baseline skills of every shooter in the club leads to entrenching in certain procedures and policies. I like the challenge of the equipment and I enjoy matches which put me as the underdog. I take my cowboy equipment and shoot other matches just for fun, but because I refuse to accept my chosen equipment as a handicap, I am able to do well.

 

 

This link is of a two man team match where we took on 60 4" steel plates with the shotgun and 40 4"plates at 70-100 yards with a rifle. The rifle is an M1 and the shotgun is a norinco 97. Even with all the hiccups I had we did really well against he other teams. Apparently after two and a half months off of shooting I can short stroke a pump like a champ!

[CodyMaverick]

 

Cody - I refer back to Gateway Kids post and his point about how many times a shooter has to go to their belt.

 

3 Targets

SxS - twice

97 - once

4 targets

SxS - twice

97 - once (for most 97 shooters I've been around who are well practiced at pulling 4)

5 targets

SxS - three times

97 - twice

 

Middle of the pack shooters vary in ability. Yes, some have the strength and dexterity to one hand shuck while the other is going to the belt, others do not and do a two hand shuck and then go to the belt. And yes, some 97 shooters can't pull 4 at a time.

 

Right or wrong, like it or not, having an even number of shotgun targets to 'level the playing field between SxS and 97 shooters' is the well established norm in this game. I don't see it changing.

 

I see the perception of the '97 advantage also depends on where you shoot. I only know of 2 '97 shooters in Va that pull 4 and are good at it. Most pull only 1 or 2 at a time, so the math being used to demonstrate the advantage doesn't work here. Also; we frequently encounter stages that have 6 total split between 2 locations and the only grumbling you hear from the double shooters is how they messed up and shucked the live one out of habit.

 

I want stage writers to feel free to be creative and not be too overly concerned about established norms and level playing fields.

 

I just wanted to point out that for most folks, the type of equipment they've chosen to use is not a major deciding factor for where they placed on the final score sheet.

[CodyMaverick]

What is an average shooter?

 

Everyone below me on the score sheet , So; the definition changes from match to match.

[CodyMaverick]

Well stated Cody.

 

And I agree with Carolina Gunslinger who also stated it very well.

 

Your top shooters, whether it be a super fast shooter with rifle, pistols or SG, has practice 'a good bit' to achieve that 'Borg Speed'.

 

And to those who are in the Top of our game, their time in working with the guns AND transitions is commendable and obviously shows in their proficiency of every stage.

 

Its fun to watch those folks and we all can learn from them.

 

 

..........Widder

 

I enjoy watching everyone. Even those not at the top have skills and techniques that can be learned from. I've seen a lot of shooter's that are really great at one thing but not so much at others so they tend to remain in the middle of the pack.

 

btw; I keep seeing a reference to really fast shooter's as 'Borg'. I've seen Star Trek and the Borg may be tough but they're really really slow, I guess I don't get the reference. just saying.

 

Also; I sent you an email concerning my Widdermatic, get back to me when you get time.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

CODY,

 

sent you an email back.

 

BORG has been used to define many aspects of personalities. But on the SASS Wire, it seems to be used to indicate someone is 'flawless' or seemingly mades little or no mistakes.

 

YOUR performance at the NC State would make me think you were in 'BORG' mode because you shot an outstanding match, no doubt about it.

 

 

..........Widder

[Carolina Gunslinger]

 

Everyone below me on the score sheet , So; the definition changes from match to match.

A "cocky" gunfighter...hahaha puntential is tremendous!

[Blastmaster]

 

Cody - I refer back to Gateway Kids post and his point about how many times a shooter has to go to their belt.

 

3 Targets

SxS - twice

97 - once

4 targets

SxS - twice

97 - once (for most 97 shooters I've been around who are well practiced at pulling 4)

5 targets

SxS - three times

97 - twice

 

Middle of the pack shooters vary in ability. Yes, some have the strength and dexterity to one hand shuck while the other is going to the belt, others do not and do a two hand shuck and then go to the belt. And yes, some 97 shooters can't pull 4 at a time.

 

Right or wrong, like it or not, having an even number of shotgun targets to 'level the playing field between SxS and 97 shooters' is the well established norm in this game. I don't see it changing.

Grizz and the rest,

 

When a 97 shooter starts pulling 3 or more SG shells, the probability of a fumbled round goes up. There is a higher fumble factor for pulling four than from pulling three, and three over two. A gamble the shooter has to weight out. As well as, the shooter is basically using one finger and one thumb to work the closing and opening of the action ( slide) when you have three remaining shells in the palm of your hand, and shells are floating around in hand. . Again, the gamble and the devil in the details of that firearm. I have seen way too many shooters continue to pull four and their skill level is, and has been so poor, that they truly would have been better to abandon the four and go back to pulling two for their 97

 

I really don't have a problem with even numbers of targets, but there is, or can be an advantage when the KD targets are close proximity to each other,,, (load, pull triggers as fast as possible). Most shooters of either firearm shoot slow enough, they would never benefit or could not tell the difference. I don't blame the sxs shooters for taking every advantage the stage writers and stage setup folks give them. Just like I don't blame a 97 shooter for taking ever advantage of odd number of targets, odd ball vertical restaging and anything else the Stage management offers. I don't really mind if one stage strongly favors one style and another stage strongly favors the other gun style... but it would be nice if at the end of the day, it basically balances out. Wishful thinking but will most likely will never happen. And that's OK (that it will never happen) too. It takes an astute stage writer and setup crew to understand both shotguns strengths and weaknesses and set up the match accordingly, to try to balance it.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Every match I'm in charge of will continue to have even numbers of shotgun targets on every stage. Not because even numbers give double shooters an advantage, but because even numbers do not give 97 shooters a disadvantage, while odd numbers do put double shooters at a disadvantage.

[Grizzly Dave]

It all comes down the the ability and amount of practice that a shooter has/puts in.

 

And what they feel most comfortable with.

 

Since I've been in the game, where I've shot, I've seen folks move away from 97s to SxS and don't see near as many 97s as when I started.

 

Elsewhere it may be just the opposite.

 

We do see odd numbers of targets once and a great while, but not very often. I've also seen wide sets, close in sets, different depths and heights on pairs, splits shotgun sets, sometimes with another gun in between, etc etc etc. I've seen very close pairs where folks tried to just pull triggers right after each other without moving much or at all on the aim, most often they hear 'again'.

 

It's all fun, and the more variety of things you face, the better shooter you will become IMO.

 

Let's just go shoot, the buzzards want this horse.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Here's an idea...put in some movement into the shotgun string and then the round count odd or even can be absorbed in the movement. Makes everything equal for those that need to be equal. I will continue to be different whether I like it or not.

 

The taking my ball and going home approach is kind of silly if you ask me as is the as long as I'm king approach. I think everyone should be happy to get out and shoot together with the fellowship that is present in this particular shooting discipline. It doesn't hurt to mix it up every now and again with an odd round count. If it's a big enough deal to someone that they are going to quit shooting or they feel that their opinion is more valuable than another shooter's, than they probably need to reevaluate their level of self importance.

 

In other news, I went to the hardware store and got the extension needed to tighten up the stock on my '97. 200 rounds of value pack last weekend loosened things up a bit.

 

Life is good!

 

WINCHESTER AA REBATE is still in effect until August 13th!!!

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Here's an idea...put in some movement into the shotgun string and then the round count odd or even can be absorbed in the movement. Makes everything equal for those that need to be equal. I will continue to be different whether I like it or not.

 

The taking my ball and going home approach is kind of silly if you ask me as is the as long as I'm king approach. I think everyone should be happy to get out and shoot together with the fellowship that is present in this particular shooting discipline. It doesn't hurt to mix it up every now and again with an odd round count. If it's a big enough deal to someone that they are going to quit shooting or they feel that their opinion is more valuable than another shooter's, than they probably need to reevaluate their level of self importance.

 

In other news, I went to the hardware store and got the extension needed to tighten up the stock on my '97. 200 rounds of value pack last weekend loosened things up a bit.

 

Life is good!

 

WINCHESTER AA REBATE is still in effect until August 13th!!!

+1

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

CG, if and when you run a match you're welcome to run it like you want.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Grizz and the rest,

 

When a 97 shooter starts pulling 3 or more SG shells, the probability of a fumbled round goes up. There is a higher fumble factor for pulling four than from pulling three, and three over two. A gamble the shooter has to weight out. As well as, the shooter is basically using one finger and one thumb to work the closing and opening of the action ( slide) when you have three remaining shells in the palm of your hand, and shells are floating around in hand. . Again, the gamble and the devil in the details of that firearm. I have seen way too many shooters continue to pull four and their skill level is, and has been so poor, that they truly would have been better to abandon the four and go back to pulling two for their 97

 

I really don't have a problem with even numbers of targets, but there is, or can be an advantage when the KD targets are close proximity to each other,,, (load, pull triggers as fast as possible). Most shooters of either firearm shoot slow enough, they would never benefit or could not tell the difference. I don't blame the sxs shooters for taking every advantage the stage writers and stage setup folks give them. Just like I don't blame a 97 shooter for taking ever advantage of odd number of targets, odd ball vertical restaging and anything else the Stage management offers. I don't really mind if one stage strongly favors one style and another stage strongly favors the other gun style... but it would be nice if at the end of the day, it basically balances out. Wishful thinking but will most likely will never happen. And that's OK (that it will never happen) too. It takes an astute stage writer and setup crew to understand both shotguns strengths and weaknesses and set up the match accordingly, to try to balance it.

I hadn't really thought about the vertical staging, but at one club I shoot at almost all long guns are vertically staged. Occasionally there's a horse, but vertical is the predominant setup. And I do believ that most shooters use a 97. I just figured it was the way those guys like to roll. Me, I bust out the 87 whenever I really want to game the stage. It's probably a little faster than the hammered double I usually roll out. Speed is essential when you are cramming as much BP in shells and cases as humanly possible, otherwise you won't be able to make enough smoke to cloud up the entire stage on a windy day.

[Carolina Gunslinger]

PS thanks for the advice. Have a nice day and Vivat Rex! (Long live the King!)

😘😂

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

A long time ago 2 members of the Wild Bunch told me they made a mistake allowing 97s in the sport. They indicated that while the horses have left the barn, they could slowly over years move folks away from the 97. Looks like whatever has happened even accidently, there are fewer 97 shooters.