What's right and fair?

[Blackey Cole]

I always dislike the notion that enforcing the rules is being a "hard-ass." Nothing causes more hard feelings at a match than for the rules to be applied inconsistently. If a TO doesn't want to enforce the rules he/she should surrender the clock. A TO that is not enforcing the rules is CHEATING everyone else at the match. Mistakes happen. But a conscious decision to ignore application of the rules is not a mistake.

amen

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

Depending on the size of your posse there can be more than one set of eyes on it and you can ask for help on it. I have no problem giving a new or old shooter leeway on things provided its not a safety issue. If someone is shooting 60 seconds when everyone is is 15-30, then take it easy.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933, on 05 May 2015 - 5:59 PM, said:

I always dislike the notion that enforcing the rules is being a "hard-ass." Nothing causes more hard feelings at a match than for the rules to be applied inconsistently. If a TO doesn't want to enforce the rules he/she should surrender the clock. A TO that is not enforcing the rules is CHEATING everyone else at the match. Mistakes happen. But a conscious decision to ignore application of the rules is not a mistake.

A TO who doesn't not assign a penalty when earned is almost impossible to correct.

[River Banks]

This topic is one that should command attention and I appreciate Wyatt bringing it up.

After a plethora of WTC threads and opinions, based on what might be fact or just hypothetical situations, this topic seems to address the root element of our "game" and what actually creates a uneven playing field.

 

Wyatt's question, can a TO make a judgment call that is both right and fair ?

I think the answer to that is an absolute maybe most of time depending on who it is and how they interpret Spirit of the Game. With that said, my answer is a resounding YES a T.O. can make a judgment call that is right (and fair) if said judgment is based on RULES.

 

For clarity, I would like to say our "game" is competition. A clear set of Rules is paramount in any competition in order to make it fair for all competitors.

I am specifically addressing the moments from when the timer goes off until the last round is spent to end the stage, thus the part of this competitive game we are all scored on.

SAFETY RULES, which I feel are explicate and well defined, must be enforced at all times and believe they are. Loaded firearms, unloaded firearms and muzzle direction of any firearm is clearly defined and it is expected of all competitors to know these rules. It is expected that all competitors abide by and enforce them.

The all important 170 rule is pretty damn simple and clear as is safe gun handling and what constitutes wrong and unsafe behavior for all competitors. Simply put don't play with guns unless you know how to, and we have rules that make no exceptions. Its OK to be nice when you assign a MSV, SDQ or MDQ to a competitor that earns it all on their own. From loading table to unloading table, and all that is between, is the competitors sanctuary and that specific area has vital ownership as to what happens next. So yes a TO can judge fairly and they must. Enforce the rules and not try make something real not real. Spirit of the Game does not mean giving someone a mulligan while most likely (pretty sure) the other Range Officers wont 25 yards to your left or right respectively. Timer operator is the acting Range officer and now that everyone is theoretically safe, and the shooter is ready on the line, go ahead Timer Operator say stand by and let that buzzer go. Now were off to the races, god willing nothing goes wrong, last shot goes down range and the competitor did his/her best. Everybody is safe and look at the timer ( funny why that is important), report time, record spotters (3, not 2, not 1, and not you) call and assign score. Strangely everybody is happy, whether they scored well or not because during the practice of fairness- the Spirit of the Game is intact and the playing field is even..... but somebody is going to win and I am pretty sure all my friends (and I hope to include you in that group) is OK with that. Next shooter please.....

 

Side notes-

*I can screw up a stage as bad as the best stage screwer upper, sometimes more fun than a good one. Give me my misses and don't forget the P if I did it, I earned it.

*Don't coach me in the middle of my string ("stop" or "cease fire" will get my attention and I will abide) I would prefer to hang myself (figuratively) without help because more often than not a train wreck does not need a conductor. The Train Wreck has already happened and it can only get worse on many "fairness" levels with a little help.

*If I am ever your TO I pledge to do my best for you and all others without prejudice. I hope for you to do well and get no enjoyment out of recording penalties.

If I don't feel I can be a fair and equitable TO for any reason at any time, I will not do it.

*If you win your category or the whole thing by 9 seconds or less and the TO decided to cut you a break on that MSV or P or whatever, and you know it, are you going to prize that buckle?

*I have witnessed many buckaroos and a few buckarettes enjoy this game and move up the ranks to be awesome competitors. I learned a lot more from them that any other class. They proved that winning wasn't as important as improving. They wanted to play by the rules and most would get offended if favoritism was shown to them (or anybody else). They wanted to be coached, but not on the line at a state or above match. They truly wanted to be judged on their own merits. Somewhere along the line they started putting a whuppin' on me and probably you. Look at what that got them and us too. Yep I'm talking about scores and purity of the game.

*In a conversation I had with a man in a Florida hotel lobby, he said " This game is a shooting competition wrapped up in a costume contest with like minded people."

We've all heard that or similar statement, but he added " if you tell me that your here not to compete, then I'll tell you that you are damned liar and that goes for everyone". Some people have an idea and then there's the few that do something with it.

** Most importantly I love this Society, the game, and those individuals involved in it. I think the vast majority of those in SASS are like minded and truly play the game with the integrity it deserves. The majority will lead by example. I am looking forward to the next match and being with my friends. I wont cut them any slack on the line and they wont cut me any. We respect each other too much. After we all shoot our turn (less total time than it takes to brew a pot of coffee), work with the posse, hang out together , eat, tell jokes and tall tales, laugh about the train wrecks, admire those that got from station to station in one piece, we might cut some cards together.

Some of us enjoy a friendly card game, Texas Hold'em, and one rule applies-no cheating. Some are better than others, some are luckier, don't show me your hand and don't expect me to show you mine, someone always goes home with the money and were all fine with paying up. Its only a game between friends.

Join us and Wyatt can you bring the Key Lime Pie?

 

ps. We can all play cards together, throw the corks away and deal with the rule book, hard-ass mentality not required only suggested.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wyatt]

River Banks

 

The best post I have read in a long time. I wish I had the ability to express my thoughts as well as you.

 

Thank you for responding.

 

 

 

It will be my pleasure to supply the pie again next year!

 

PS: That Key Lime Pie just won the National Championship for the second year in a row.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

River Banks

 

The best post I have read in a long time. I wish I had the ability to express my thoughts as well as you.

 

Thank you for responding.

 

 

 

It will be my pleasure to supply the pie again next year!

 

PS: That Key Lime Pie just won the National Championship for the second year in a row.

 

 

 

 

I agree Wyatt best one of the best posts I've ever read on wire, I want some of that key lime too

 

 

AO

[Most Wanted]

We have a great support team in SASS. The ROC , TGs , MDs , wire moderators and many more. There's only so much that you should expect of volunteers. SASS is a business and its Main job is to be a sanctioning body for cowboy action shooting. That includs providing clear and concise rules. At this point we have three books you need to reference and at times you'll still have gray areas on some rules and others will be repeated 4 times. Frankly it's a mess. It's past time for the business to get that fixed by a Paid employee. Do a first draft of one book without all the repetition and hopefully the ROC will fine tune that draft. No need for votes or input from anyone else at this time. Every established game I've ever played the rules were set and not up for discussion. I'm not saying as things come up there won't be additions or changes but at this point the patch work is showing its age.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Depending on the size of your posse there can be more than one set of eyes on it and you can ask for help on it. I have no problem giving a new or old shooter leeway on things provided its not a safety issue. If someone is shooting 60 seconds when everyone is is 15-30, then take it easy.

I disagree. Just because someone is a "new or old shooter" or is shooting 60 second stages doesn't mean they aren't having as much fun competing with other shooters of similar experience/skills. I also hate the common "it's only a monthly shoot" comment advanced by some to justify loose application of the rules. A lot of shooters don't get to shoot at bigger matches and competing at the smaller monthly shoot is their only opportunity to compete-this IS a competitive sport. Inconsistent enforcement of rules means someone is getting screwed and that's wrong, regardless of age, skill level or what level of match is involved.

 

To me, "don't be a hard ass" means don't be a jerk or rude, it doesn't mean bending the rules under the guise of "leeway" or "taking it easy."

[Cypress Sun]

Wow Riverbanks, I've never seen you say so much.......great post.

 

Folks, I've played Texas Holdem' with these guys......better bring you're "A" game.

 

See ya in Jan.

 

Sun

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

River Banks my friend.....Great Post!

 

Can't wait to see you guys on the trail again!

 

Stan

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

I guess I would rather pick up brass.

[Griff]

My question is..................can a TO make a judgment call that is both right and fair?

Making calls in accordance with the rules... consistently. Done best by applying the precepts found in the ROIII manual.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I sure don't need to add anything after River Banks!

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

Yes and consistency is crucial. Stand corrected.

[Most Wanted]

River Banks my friend.....Great Post!

 

Can't wait to see you guys on the trail again!

 

Stan

My friend knows how to turn a phrase. I've read it a few times and it just gets better. You poor people only got a taste. And Stan , I'm thinking we'll see you in October.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

For example:

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=236848&p=3091079

 

Thanks, PW & Gridd.

[Bones Z]

 

Please read the sections of this thread about where the 170 rule applies. It's only RIGHT AT the stage's firing line. Just don't sweep folks as you head for the unloading table or are working the guns at the unloading table.

 

You should not be calling a 170 degree penalty for the shooter walking safely back to the unloading table without sweeping someone.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Actually not true GJ, According to the RO1 the 170 is in effect from the loading THROUGH the unloading table, Breaking the 170 on the way to the unloading table is a SDQ:

 

Safe gun handling is the shooter’s responsibility. The 170 degree safety rule is in effect.

Long guns will have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when being carried to and from the designated loading and unloading areas for each stage. Chambers and magazines must be empty and actions open for all firearms transported at a match. Muzzle direction is important between, before, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants

between stages, or when moving the firearms from the gun cart to the loading tables. The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction (generally “up” and slightly down range), even when returning to the unloading table...

Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I suggest a reading of the definition of the 170º rule...then explain how it can SAFELY be applied when coming off the stage to the ULT without risking SWEEPING other posse members with the muzzles of firearms as the target setters & brass pickers move forward.

Whether that can be safely accomplished depends on the range/stage layout.

 

The requirement to keep the muzzles pointed in a "safe direction" means to NOT SWEEP ANYONE...the "generally up & slightly downrange" is a suggestion how to do that...but isn't necessarily the ONLY way to do so.

 

 

GLOSSARY OF TERMS

170º Safety Rule - means the muzzle of the firearm must always be pointed down range +/- 85 degrees in any direction.

 

RO1 p.29

 

 

[Cherokee sgt.]

What is right or fair

T.O. Allowed brass picker to yell at shooter on safety matter that was not happening which impeded shooter

& then would not give shooter reshoot because HE as T.O. didn't impede , told. Shooter it just there tough luck

What is T.O to do when spotter or spotters or maybe brass picker . Impedes shooter with Improper coaching or

Sometimes they just do it & are just way off base ?????

someone that knows ? PWB always gets it right

Shooter did finish stage after trying understand what going on .

[Most Wanted]

I've had that happen when I was running the clock and when the shooter paused I told him to keep going. There's always a possibility that some thing or some one may distract the shooter. I agree it stinks but life ain't always fair. No reshoot and next shooter please. Hopefully the peanut gallery learned something.

 

Also as a TO you can't anticipate someone yelling something. To say that "the TO allowed " someone yell something is not correct.

[Cherokee sgt.]

I've had that happen when I was running the clock and when the shooter paused I told him to keep going. There's always a possibility that some thing or some one may distract the shooter. I agree it stinks but life ain't always fair. No reshoot and next shooter please. Hopefully the peanut gallery learned something.

Also as a TO you can't anticipate someone yelling something. To say that "the TO allowed " someone yell something is not correct.

T.O. After Three times & T.O not trying to even do any thing ---I would say he allowed continue to happen

This brass picker was almost as close to shooter as T.O.

There was pause & one or two times yells from brass picker & then a crash ----shooter finished

& ask for reshoot & then told tough $hit

[Most Wanted]

T.O. After Three times & T.O not trying to even doing any thing I would say he allowed continue to happen

This brass picker was almost as close to shooter as T.O.

You were there and I wasn't so I won't arm chair the TO. But I will tell you this and the shooter in question. If you see no reason to stop and the TO or anybody else isn't saying Ceasefire then Keep going. It does happen from time to time that a well meaning spectator will offer up some advice. But as a shooter you should know where you stand at that moment and know if you need to take a second. If not you were in the same boat as the well meaning spectator, in doubt. Some would argue ( not me ) that if you let this cause a reshoot a buddy could yell out some bad advise to a friend having a bad stage.

[Cherokee sgt.]

You were there and I wasn't so I won't arm chair the TO. But I will tell you this and the shooter in question. If you see no reason to stop and the TO or anybody else isn't saying Ceasefire then Keep going. It does happen from time to time that a well meaning spectator will offer up some advice. But as a shooter you should know where you stand at that moment and know if you need to take a second. If not you were in the same boat as the well meaning spectator, in doubt. Some would argue ( not me ) that if you let this cause a reshoot a buddy could yell out some bad advise to a friend having a bad stage.

Interesting Thought things were going good up till then !

What came first the chicken or the egg ?

I seen many reshoot never one to a team of Cheaters!

Grounds for a reshoot & a reshoot. Is 2 different things ????

[Most Wanted]

Yea it sucks we have to worry about what doors we open for fear of a lowlife walking through.

[Cherokee sgt.]

Yea it sucks we have to worry about what doors we open for fear of a lowlife walking through.

Just trying to find out what is right & fair

 

The thought of cheaters never entered my mind !!!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

What is right or fair

T.O. Allowed brass picker to yell at shooter on safety matter that was not happening which impeded shooter

& then would not give shooter reshoot because HE as T.O. didn't impede , told. Shooter it just there tough luck

What is T.O to do when spotter or spotters or maybe brass picker . Impedes shooter with Improper coaching or

Sometimes they just do it & are just way off base ?????

someone that knows ? PWB always gets it right

Shooter did finish stage after trying understand what going on .

Any of the Range Officers working the stage at the time can be a cause for a reshoot...but the Brass Picker is not a Range Officer...so...no reshoot.

 

Spotters are Range Officers...

 

Of course if the Brass Picker is also spotting, then a Reshoot could have been offered.

 

At least that my understanding based on the definitions of Range Officers in ROI book...

 

Phantom

[Most Wanted]

Any of the Range Officers working the stage at the time can be a cause for a reshoot...but the Brass Picker is not a Range Officer...so...no reshoot.

 

Spotters are Range Officers...

 

Of course if the Brass Picker is also spotting, then a Reshoot could have been offered.

 

At least that my understanding based on the definitions of Range Officers in ROI book...

 

Phantom

Yep , I never considered that the picker might also have been a spotter.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

what's right and fair,,,,?????

 

 

ICE CREAM FOR EVERYONE AFTER THE SHOOT!!!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

what's right and fair,,,,?????

 

 

ICE CREAM FOR EVERYONE AFTER THE SHOOT!!!!

What flavor?

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

For all of the reasons stated on this thread I resolved never to be a TO again. I know a lot of seasoned, experienced SASS members who share my feelings.

 

In a local match where I know the players I might fill in in a pinch. Otherwise, no way I am buying into this grief.

[Tyrel Cody]

What flavor?

Have Baskin Robbins deliver 31 flavors on Purdy Boy's tab.

[Blastmaster]

For all of the reasons stated on this thread I resolved never to be a TO again. I know a lot of seasoned, experienced SASS members who share my feelings.

 

In a local match where I know the players I might fill in in a pinch. Otherwise, no way I am buying into this grief.

Fair enough Desert Pete,

 

Being a TO has a lot of responsibilities and duties should not be taken lightly.

 

Being a good TO has a lot of similarities as being a good Parent.... difference is, the children are quite a bit older.

 

Happy Trails,

 

Blastmaster

[Wyatt]

Desert Pete

 

Taking up the responsibility of running the timer is not for everybody. There are plenty of chores to go around

 

Anybody can hold a timer..............some shouldn't

[Most Wanted]

All I want from a TO is to start the clock and make sure the last round is recorded. Other than that I want them to have fun. Some shooters expect the TO to carry too much weight for Their stage. That tends to wear out the TO. If it feels like work then they have been holding it too long and need a break. I've never had a TO I couldn't work with but I do prefer some over others.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

All I want from a TO is to start the clock and make sure the last round is recorded. .... . I've never had a TO I couldn't work with but I do prefer some over others.

 

The last statement here puts the first statement into the category of "not quite true". Unless it's just the ugly mug on some of us that you don't care to see that close up.

 

I'm pretty sure that the first requirement you stated has been met well by almost all the TO's you have shot with.

 

What I want is a TO that will watch me like a hawk - about once every 5 matches one catches me (before I catch it myself) trying to shoot the wrong starting target on a set. I greatly respect that almost all our TO's are WAY more than a button presser and last shot catcher.

 

I especially appreciate a TO who fully and accurately knows the rules, and enforces them evenly for each shooter.

 

And, if I tell a TO I'm "on my own on this one," I expect him to be quiet unless he's stopping me for a safety problem of some sort.

 

Good luck, GJ