Staging rifle on mule/horse stand

[Dragon Hill Dave #59561]

Some clubs (and EOT) use a mule/horse stand to stage rifles and shotguns. The legs of the stand have indentions on the legs where the guns can be staged and re-staged.

 

My '73 rifle will sit on most of those stands with the trigger guard on the outside of the legs. I recently shot at a club that had one of those stands, but when I set my rifle on it with the trigger guard outside the legs a club representative told me that the trigger guard had to be "covered" so the trigger guard had to be on or inside the leg. Other clubs just say staged on the mule. I have staged my rifle at EOT with the trigger guard outside the legs with no issues, but there are rules that address covering the trigger guard on staged guns, so I am not sure how that works with a mule/horse stand.

 

Any insights?

[Noz]

Club rule

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

There is NO RULE regarding the position of the trigger guard on that type of staging prop.

The ONLY "trigger guard" rule is the third "STAGE CONVENTION" pertaining to long guns staged on a flat horizontal surface.

 

REF: SHB p.21/RO1 p.13

[Grizzly Dave]

You must have a long barrel.

 

I stage mine with the lever up on the back legs.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

We solved a lot of problems when we built these horses with the flat tops, no danger of the lever closing when restating, although that's no longer an issue. We find it much easier to stage and restage guns on these. We have a few of them in the prop herd.

 

TB

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[Dragon Hill Dave #59561]

There is NO RULE regarding the position of the trigger guard on that type of staging prop.

The ONLY "trigger guard" rule is the third "STAGE CONVENTION" pertaining to long guns staged on a flat horizontal surface.

 

REF: SHB p.21/RO1 p.13

Thanks!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

DHD, I really am surprised that you seem to have little faith in what JD and I stated.

 

The main reason for the trigger guard rule was to stop the practice of staging rifles upright on tables with the whole lever/trigger guard off the table. This was deemed unsafe.

 

Phantom

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Do to the complaints from horses and mules ( not the shooters of course ) being used for gun props around here most horses and mules have grown tables on their tops. Also makes a great place to lay a malfunctioning pistol. One could argue that horse and mule props helped get the closed lever rule change activity started (folks were putting fired rifles on horses and rifles sometimes flipped upside down closing levers)

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Do to the complaints from horses and mules ( not the shooters of course ) being used for gun props around here most horses and mules have grown tables on their tops. Also makes a great place to lay a malfunctioning pistol. One could argue that horse and mule props helped get the closed lever rule change activity started (folks were putting fired rifles on horses and rifles sometimes flipped upside down closing levers)

 

You must be a wooden horse/mule whisperer. I've never heard a wooden horse or mule prop complain.

[Anvil Al #59168]

DHD.

 

Hope you (please) send this with PaleWolf answer to the club so they can

get thing corrected at that there. (No. I don't know what club.)

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

The club can require whatever they want when it comes to staging on THEIR props.

 

Like it's a big deal anyways.

 

Stan

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

Oy, he's back!

 

DHD, I really am surprised that you seem to have little faith in what JD and I stated.

 

 

Oy, he's back!

The main reason for the trigger guard rule was to stop the practice of staging rifles upright on tables with the whole lever/trigger guard off the table. This was deemed unsafe.

 

Phantom

[Anvil Al #59168]

The club can require whatever they want when it comes to staging on THEIR props.

 

Like it's a big deal anyways.

 

Stan

 

 

I don't think it's a big deal either way. BUT.

Is it a club rule. Or a RO that is just reading something into a rule that is not there.

If so. He needs to be corrected.

Could head of problems farther down the road.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

 

 

I don't think it's a big deal either way. BUT.

Is it a club rule. Or a RO that is just reading something into a rule that is not there.

If so. He needs to be corrected.

Could head of problems farther down the road.

More like someone that has an RO badge and thinks he/she knows ALL the answers...yet usually is clueless.

 

Phantom

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

At EOT, if the gun will stay on the horse the way you staged it, it's good. If it falls and your staging was a balancing act, you'll earn the penalty.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Blastmaster]

At EOT, if the gun will stay on the horse the way you staged it, it's good. If it falls and your staging was a balancing act, you'll earn the penalty.

 

Good luck, GJ

\

 

I am good with that. But some shooters would claim a stage prop failure when gun falls off (staged flat and horizontal on top) because the prop was wobbly....and get a reshoot from a kind soul that gives out BOD left and right.

[Dragon Hill Dave #59561]

DHD, I really am surprised that you seem to have little faith in what JD and I stated.

 

The main reason for the trigger guard rule was to stop the practice of staging rifles upright on tables with the whole lever/trigger guard off the table. This was deemed unsafe.

 

Phantom

Made sense to me, but I thought it would help to get it aired on the Wire so folks would be clear. I always have faith in your observations, but Palewolf is definitive.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Made sense to me, but I thought it would help to get it aired on the Wire so folks would be clear. I always have faith in your observations, but Palewolf is definitive.

No doubt PWB is the rules god...but if folks don't have the ability to understand some of the most basic rules without having to go to Wire for answers...well...we're pretty much doomed.

 

Phantom

[Blastmaster]

Doomed comes with age.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I like it when people bring up rules questions here. It reinforces them in my mind and is the reason that I first started reading the Wire.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Hi Folks,

 

I like it when people bring up rules questions here. It reinforces them in my mind and is the reason that I first started reading the Wire.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

That's fine...but I think the whole process gets outta wack when every dang thing that can possibly be questioned at the Range gets brought up here. Believe it or not, sometimes folks have to trust local club members especially if more then one gives the same opinion and those that gave the opinion have a lot of experience outside of their own club.

 

Phantom

[Most Wanted]

It would be easy to agree with you but we have all seen so many wrong calls by RO instructors , TGs, MDs and so on. That is not meant to slam anyone only that we are all human and can mess up. If someone doesn't agree with a call I make I invite them to take it up the ladder. If I'm right , good. If I'm wrong and learn something , good. I never take it personally. I like others read the wire mostly for WTC threads. Some of those threads never come to an end. So rule interpretation is alive and well. In those cases I just go with the majority. BTW glad to hear from ya

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I too agree that WTC threads are perhaps the best part of the Wire...but where does one draw the line? My gawd, we can have 1000's of WTC threads if every time someone at a club raised a question.

 

Most calls are easy ones...like this one.

 

;-)

[Fast Enuff]

Horse props. Everyone should use them once in a while just to get used to all the different ways things can go wrong with them and all the local rules you might encounter.

 

Yep, that was a club rule. Not terribly uncommon. You'll see some clubs require the most stringent staging like you had (trigger guard inside the rear legs). You'll see some just say that it has to start in the hooks and the rest is up to you. You'll even see some that don't care as long as the gun is on top of the prop (you can lay it across the top when you stage it making it work more like a table).

 

Some clubs won't require you to put it back in the hooks, just make it safe. Which means you can stand it up next to it, which can be easier if it is unstable or the hooks aren't deep.

 

When in doubt at the club you are at, just ask during the walkthrough. Odds are there is someone else in the posse wondering what's allowed too.

[Blastmaster]

FWIW,

 

As most have witnessed as well, I've seen long guns staged in all kinds of ways on one of those plywood horses.

 

1) Horizontal across top and ignore the cradle

2) barrel in front cradle, butt on top of back, with trigger guard holding it in place some how

3) both barrel & butt in cradle with trigger guard forward/on/backward of leg

4) barrel in front and butt kinda in rear cradle on a tilt, (wedged in so to speak)

 

5) restaged upside down which use to be tricky because of lever/action closing or

6) restaged with lever down and used to be tricky but a bit better for the closed lever/action call

7) take long gun with you if all it said was make gun safe.

 

At best, the stage description just said gun has to start on the plywood prop and in the cradle. So you, as a shooter are at the whim of the TO running you through and whatever his/her club rules are,, where ever they came from. In summary, stage description may not convey to the shooters (nor the posse marshal from the walk through) what that Stage Writer or Clubs policy or expectations are.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Well in this case it was "...staged on Mule".

 

Let the shooter do whatever he/she wanted...so long as the staging didn't violate any SASS rule...obviously.

 

It's funny how some folks want every possible method of running a stage spelled out for them...like if it's not, then there is going to be problems. Fact is, that if one leaves things open in their stage writing and the club abides by SASS rules, then all is going to be fine...shooters can get creative.

 

Phantom

[Anvil Al #59168]

Horse props. Everyone should use them once in a while just to get used to all the different ways things can go wrong with them and all the local rules you might encounter.

 

Yep, that was a club rule. Not terribly uncommon. You'll see some clubs require the most stringent staging like you had (trigger guard inside the rear legs). You'll see some just say that it has to start in the hooks and the rest is up to you. You'll even see some that don't care as long as the gun is on top of the prop (you can lay it across the top when you stage it making it work more like a table).

 

Some clubs won't require you to put it back in the hooks, just make it safe. Which means you can stand it up next to it, which can be easier if it is unstable or the hooks aren't deep.

 

When in doubt at the club you are at, just ask during the walkthrough. Odds are there is someone else in the posse wondering what's allowed too.

 

 

If that is a club rule.

The club knows ahead of time the horse is being uses.

It should be stated at the safety meeting before hand so EVERYONE knows.

 

Not fair to those visiting a club to not announce clubs rules.

Only to let them find out while staging or after the fact.

[Two Spurs]

Well in this case it was "...staged on Mule".

 

Let the shooter do whatever he/she wanted...so long as the staging didn't violate any SASS rule...obviously.

 

It's funny how some folks want every possible method of running a stage spelled out for them...like if it's not, then there is going to be problems. Fact is, that if one leaves things open in their stage writing and the club abides by SASS rules, then all is going to be fine...shooters can get creative.

 

Phantom

 

Judging from some of the responses we read here on the Wire, that seems to be just the point. Some folks don't want anyone to be creative because that's not how "they" would do it. REGARDLESS of whether SASS gives it the thumbs up or not.

[Blastmaster]

Pretty straight forward if it says to stage LG 'in' cradles,,,,

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Pretty straight forward if it says to stage LG 'in' cradles,,,,

And it didn't.

 

Like I said, the instructions simply stated "...on Mule".

 

Phantom

[Blastmaster]

And it didn't.

 

Like I said, the instructions simply stated "...on Mule".

 

Phantom

I was speaking in generalality about the cradle.

 

"on Mule" is OK too. Lay it vertical/horizontal across the back with trigger guard dangling off for all I care. Balance it on the sxs saddle thingy too, if you dare.

[Shooting Bull]

Fact is, that if one leaves things open in their stage writing and the club abides by SASS rules, then all is going to be fine...shooters can get creative.

 

Phantom

This is what I miss most in current stage writing trends, the shooter's ability to be creative. I hate being lead by the nose through every single aspect of a stage. Best examples I've seen of letting shooters choose how to shoot stages have been Mose Spencer's stages at the U.S. open and most stages at Winter Range.

[Blastmaster]

Seems it would only be courteous to the shooters if the stage writer/club gave some clarification on what limits were allowed for these suppose creative stages.

 

For example using the Mule prop. could say: 'stage LG on Mule,' OR ' could say: stage LG on Mule, anywhere, anyhow, across the back is OK'.

 

Perhaps then, a TO from a different club wouldn't be as likely to bring in their more restrictive club rules into the mix. The shooters could read it, ask questions, and decide and perhaps more people would be happy and you could be as creative as you want.

 

Second example.

 

'Start with Shotgun in hand, at beep engage....' lets say it was a typo and it should have read 'Start with Shotgun in hands, at beep, engage...'

 

 

Some one would latch onto the typo singular hand be creative and have his other hand hovering over his SG shells. If that is what the Stage Writer wished, then state 'other hand can be hovering near SG shells.'

 

This will not be solved any time soon, probably can get better, but after 30years,we have what we have, inconsistence

[Cowboy Junky]

This is what I miss most in current stage writing trends, the shooter's ability to be creative. I hate being lead by the nose through every single aspect of a stage. Best examples I've seen of letting shooters choose how to shoot stages have been Mose Spencer's stages at the U.S. open and most stages at Winter Range.

 

Yes sir, I went to the US open a while back and loved the open ended stages.....I think T-Bone wrote them that year. I usually add that to my matches to mix things up. I like flat backed horses and mules etc I just sure hope we don't get to the point where shooting off a horse is deemed to hard........

[Krazy Kajun]

 

Yes sir, I went to the US open a while back and loved the open ended stages.....I think T-Bone wrote them that year. I usually add that to my matches to mix things up. I like flat backed horses and mules etc I just sure hope we don't get to the point where shooting off a horse is deemed to hard........

It hard to put a saddle on a flat backed hoss and choot off'em!