Outlaw Torn Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have one NMV in 38/357, the other is still in jail. I am making my own ammunition 125 LRNFP. I set the gun on two carpet covered 2X4's and shoot paper at 15 yards. If the front and rear blade and rear grove are level the gun shoots quite low below black ring maybe 2". If I elevate the sight to sit at the 12 o'clock position higher than rear the gun shoots a little low of center. This would mean the front sight would need to be filled down a bit. Is there any type of calculation for amount filled off front in regards to raising point of impact? Perhaps I should just take to gunsmith, but I do have a file Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Most all single action revolvers come with high front sights. The idea is that once you have a certain load you like for your ammo, you file down the sight so that point-of-aim matches point-of-impact. There is a formula for how much to remove but most do it by trail and error, shoot a bit-file a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 There actually is a very simple formula. It does require fairly accurate measurement for pistols especially. However, there is a simple way that works better. First off, get as good a pistol shot as you can to shoot the pistol and note where it shoots. If your groups are in a different place, ponder over that for awhile. But once you decide to cut 'em, the simple way is to take a fair amount of ammo and go shoot. After however many groups you're comfortable with to decide you're shooting decent and normally, if you want to file, go ahead. But... Just take a little off. And shoot again to see what that did. Don't try to move the group but about halfway to where you want it. We all shoot better or worse from day to day and more accurately some days than others. So don't do this all in one day. You also want to see how the first movement worked in action, against a regular lineup of SASS targets. Relying on math to figure out what to do just might screw your cowboy shooting over. Taking it in stages works great. You often learn more about your own shooting than about the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The formula is simple. error in inches X sight radius then divide that by target distance in inches. error X sight radius target distance Say you're 3 inches off in elevation at 10 yards. Say your front sight is 8 inches from the back sight. Ten yards is 360 inches. 3 times 8 divided by 360 tells you how much you have to take off (or add to) either the front or the back sights (depending on whether you were high or low). The answer would be .067" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Torn Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 The formula is simple. error in inches X sight radius then divide that by target distance in inches. error X sight radius target distance Say you're 3 inches off in elevation at 10 yards. Say your front sight is 8 inches from the back sight. Ten yards is 360 inches. 3 times 8 divided by 360 tells you how much you have to take off (or add to) either the front or the back sights (depending on whether you were high or low). The answer would be .067" Thank you for formula, I will shoot again this weekend and measure given I am grouping well. As you said as well I will not remove full amount maybe 1/3 to 1/2 and test again. Thinking using a micrometer may be handy to determine how much material has been removed. I am gathering I should aim for where I want to hit and than measure to see how far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 It's fine for CAS. Don't file😢 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Kincaid Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 If you are shooting low then just aim a little higher on the target. I changed powder and loads so much over the past couple years chasing the accuracy problems. I filed mine down and then found the perfect powder. Long story short, $170 for new brass front sights to be installed in my pistols. Don't file, we're not bullseye shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Cannuck Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Then The question is what happens when/if you ever want to sell the pistol. It's really only good for you. Adjust how you take the sight picture and work with that. I agree with Coyote Kincaid! Just my 2 cents! Frenchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm in the don't file camp as well, but yer irons, yer choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Slowly file them to sight them in to the same point of aim/impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisco Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Your point of impact is not likely to be the same when firing off-hand as from a firm rest, so consider that before you take a file to the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have one NMV in 38/357, the other is still in jail. I am making my own ammunition 125 LRNFP. I set the gun on two carpet covered 2X4's and shoot paper at 15 yards. If the front and rear blade and rear grove are level the gun shoots quite low below black ring maybe 2". If I elevate the sight to sit at the 12 o'clock position higher than rear the gun shoots a little low of center. This would mean the front sight would need to be filled down a bit. Is there any type of calculation for amount filled off front in regards to raising point of impact? Perhaps I should just take to gunsmith, but I do have a file Something to keep in mind before you make a one way change. Most fixed sight guns were factory regulated to a specific bullet weight and distance. .38 & .357 pistols usually are set to a 158 gr bullet at 20-25 yards, just as .45's were typically set up for a 250 gr bullet. Heavier bullets push back a little harder, causing the muzzle to rise more, so a taller sight starts the gun pointed a mite bit lower to offset this. Once you go to a lighter bullet, your point of impact drops (ignoring shooter induced errors such as heeling or flinching). Filing can correct this, but once you remove metal it's hard to restore it. If you're sure of which weight bullet you'll live with, then you might go ahead and file, or you could investigate alternative solutions, such as putting a gold stripe on the front sight at the right height for that bullet type, or holding a bit high for these shots, or even trying heavier bullets moving slower. Some folks won't buy a gun that's been modified such that it can't be returned to original condition, some don't care, but if you ever want to trade this gun in the future that might make a difference as well. Shadow Catcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have one NMV in 38/357, the other is still in jail. I am making my own ammunition 125 LRNFP. I set the gun on two carpet covered 2X4's and shoot paper at 15 yards. If the front and rear blade and rear grove are level the gun shoots quite low below black ring maybe 2". If I elevate the sight to sit at the 12 o'clock position higher than rear the gun shoots a little low of center. This would mean the front sight would need to be filled down a bit. Is there any type of calculation for amount filled off front in regards to raising point of impact? Perhaps I should just take to gunsmith, but I do have a file A couple of other things..... What sight picture are you using, six o'clock hold or center of target? Are you standing up and shooting the gun hand held the way you will in competition? Shooting for groups to test ammo accuracy is done differently then shooting to regulate POA=POI. All of these can easily contribute to a lot of error.... SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Most front sights are set for long barrel versions of their revolver. I adjust my ammo and sight picture to shot poa poi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Have you shot it in a match yet? Shoot it before you file it! Once metal is removed it can't be replaced (easily). You will also have lowered the gun's value and made resale more difficult. A lot of people tend to "take" (hold the front sight a little high) some front sight when they are shooting fast. If you shoot a few matches and have no trouble hitting the targets leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Impeding the recoil of the pistol such as resting the bottom of the grip on an unforgiving surface will make the revolver shot low. I would suggest resting the front of the frame/trigger guard only on a sandbag to see POI and group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Have you shot it in a match yet? Shoot it before you file it! Once metal is removed it can't be replaced (easily). You will also have lowered the gun's value and made resale more difficult. A lot of people tend to "take" (hold the front sight a little high) some front sight when they are shooting fast. If you shoot a few matches and have no trouble hitting the targets leave it alone. What he said. At match speed off hand. You may be closer than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Every other pistol I own requires front sight and rear sight to be level with each other to shoot accurate. That's why I have always filed my Rugers or colt clones. Some folks like a taller front sight. I don't😉 It's easy to do👍 Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Hold the gun the way you will be shooting it. Sighting it in on a bench won't help unless you're going to carry a bench on your gun cart. Shoot several groups on target. See where you're hitting, and adjust accordingly. If you turn out to be hitting left or right while holding the pistol that way, you have more fun ahead of you. The way I hold a handgun, I ALWAYS shoot high/left. I have had the barrel turned on every Cowboy gun I own, unless a previous owner has already had id done. Surprisingly, after the barrel is turned, (tightened three degrees, in my case), elevation is very close. On one gun FOUR light strokes of a file brought it right where it needed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I will go along with everyone saying shoot them as you would in a match and check for accuracy. A little bit of recoil will probably bring the POI up some. If so try them in a match, you may be good to go. I have used at least five sets of pistols for SASS and have only had to adjust the sights on the last set, and two swipes with a file made all the difference I needed. Hope this helps, Smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Contrary to some remarks, if you don't know your true POA and your POI isn't close, then good luck. Once you find the true POI without influence and assuming you can shoot well, then you can adjust. My Ruger 3 screws are dead on at 21 feet. However, I usually have a high front blade sight picture coming out of the holster fast. I hold into the meat at 6:00 and everything works out. If you cannot be confident where the so....thing shoots, how can you be confident in your shooting? Slow down a tad on the Texas Star and pick up the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripsaw Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 My Bisely Vaqueros impact about 2 inches low with my cowboy loads. I would never file my front sight blades. I simply use a little more front sight in my sight picture. Never know when you might want to shoot full power .357 ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I would never use a gun at a match that didn't shoot where I pointed it, my goodness that seems so basic to me. You will want to use a load that works and has a good track record, then adjust sights as needed. Lots of us spend 100's if not 1000's on gunsmithing and upgrades, it ain't rocket surgery to get a new front sight if you need too. Can't imagine wondering if the gun I'm using first is the one that shoots high left or dead on but a few inches low. I shoot a cylinder full of carefully sighted shots at 10 yds, (offhand) they should easily cluster in the size of a teacup, file accordingly, reshoot often, no big deal. For windage most of our guns need the rear sight widened, widen the rear sight on the appropriate side if you need to. I wouldn't think of shooting full power 357's in my match guns, I have spent too much money getting them just right, I have other guns for that and you should too. (and yes-they shoot where I point them too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Torn Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Thanks for all the good input. I will shoot the pistols more and if I feel that it is consistently not hitting where I want I will modify. Checking at a live match may be useful if I can get someone to watch for impact location. Steel plates can be good sized and close at some matches from what I have seen. If I am for chest and hit groin that could be an issue on smaller targets or longer shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Thanks for all the good input. I will shoot the pistols more and if I feel that it is consistently not hitting where I want I will modify. Checking at a live match may be useful if I can get someone to watch for impact location. Steel plates can be good sized and close at some matches from what I have seen. If I am for chest and hit groin that could be an issue on smaller targets or longer shoots. I'm lucky to have a large club with a number of berms full of cowboy type steel targets. Some fine afternoons have been spent there. Painting the targets so they're bright and un-marked before the shooting starts makes for an extremely informative "test" day. Taking a couple of hundred rounds insures you'll leave knowing where the gun(s) shoot. Thinking about what you're doing insures you'll know where the sights should have put the lead splatters. Back when that club introduced SASS matches to the area and got that steel, they bought 18x24 plates. At todays SASS distances, you ain't gonna have chest/groin displacement from a pistol unless it's one you haven't gotten around to sending back to the factory. (and really should trade in for one of a different make) So you'll get better feedback (and less lead back) if you double the distance. A couple of carefully aimed first shots will tell you what kind of distance would work best that day. It also helps to put a spot of black paint on the fresh white for an aiming point. After awhile, especially if you're shooting good, I've found that I instinctively start aiming at the splatter cluster. With the black spot, it just goes away nowadays (since the sights have been registered). The beautiful thing about "having to test" things like this, is it "requires" you to load up a couple hundred rounds and go shoot. Heck, somedays you just have to shoot for hours... It's sensible and worthwhile to take a little more time each session to run off a few 5 or 10 shot strings on paper to see where the sights are then. I've yet to run into a pistol that doesn't shoot very much the same both ways, nor found loads that differ either. At least at SASS distances. I've also found it worthwhile to try and suppress your grinning (and humming and whistling) as you putter around the house after coming home from one of those GRUELING test sessions. The wife thinks you been somewhere else. (But it's ok to grin a little as it never hurts to keep her guessing. Just don't whistle and hum a lot.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attica Jack #23953 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Would not file the front site. For out type of shooting that group is going to be fine. You could also try to slow the bullet down a bit with a lighter powder charge. For me, I would just leave them alone, learn to shoot your guns as they are. Shooting off a bench isn't the same as standing and shooting, the guns will impact differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grass Range #51406 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Your gunsmith will have a Ransom Rest to fire it in and may correct from that. The rest is up to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pecos River Bob Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I hesitated to file my front sights down, and the back sight wider to move POI. My revolvers shot low and left. I could hit all the big targets but when I went to a match with eight inch round knock down targets, I could not hit them because my barrel covered the target totally up. I shot, then file and repeat and now they are perfect and I have much more confidence. Pecos River Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Waste of ammo , time, and fuel knowingly going to a match with pistols not zeroed. I don't get it. Zero in hand, not off bags, or ransom rest. It will not hit same poa that it does in hand. If you shoot a poor group, do it over. Mediocre shooters and above have guns zeroed. It's free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Waste of ammo , time, and fuel knowingly going to a match with pistols not zeroed. I don't get it. Zero in hand, not off bags, or ransom rest. It will not hit same poa that it does in hand. If you shoot a poor group, do it over. Mediocre shooters and above have guns zeroed. It's free! Amazing to me that we are in the minority here, be interesting to know for example what percentage of category winners (good to very good shooters) at state and above matches, zero their guns, I'm guessing a lot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Well I'd file it. If you sell the guns it will probably be to a SASS shooter......the guns I have sold that were filed I gave them my loading data and they LIKED it........they didn't have to sight them in and they hit where they aimed. Also for those that say it doesn't matter in "our game" they might sing a different tune after shooting a TX star, small clay as a bonus, mover etc....it can cost you the match win. I've seen many people shoot 5 rounds at a star and not hit 1 plate......9 times out of 10 I'll ask them if their guns are sighted in and the answer is no. Also it lets you break the shot on the edge of the steel and will speed up your times......if that's important to ya'. Why on earth would you want ANY gun that doesn't shoot where the sights are pointed?????? That's the sole purpose of them being put on there. IMO they make them tall because most are chambered for 357 and you NEED that much sight for that..........for a 750 FPS SASS load....not so much. Get a inverter, a dremel wheel and take it to the range. Make a pass and shoot it, repeat until your gun is accurate and you don't have to remember where each one shoots. You bought the gun to shoot SASS......make the best for what you bought it for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Amazing to me that we are in the minority here, be interesting to know for example what percentage of category winners (good to very good shooters) at state and above matches, zero their guns, I'm guessing a lot!! It's a minority of people that win the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I use my guns for more than cass so I want them sighted as close to point of aim as possible I have no use for guns that need "Kentucky Windage". I did mine the easy way, packed them up and sent them off to the late Bob Munden, they are now slick as snot and as requested sighted dead on at 20 yards with factory 45 colt ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 It's fine for CAS. Don't file WRONG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I won't have a gun that won't shoot to point of aim with preferred loads. I've filed down all my vaquero's front sights to ensure it hits where I'm looking. As stated, when adjusting, shoot it as you intend to use it at a match. POI may change a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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